School dress codes, etc. What do you think?

[Wise One]

Well, just so you see where I am on the matter, I am in the 9th grade at Chaffin Jr. High school in Arkansas (USA).
Recently, many very laws have been passed in Arkansas, of which, in my humble opinion, are lazy and horribly absurd dealings with the problems presenting themselves today.


Topic One: Dress Codes.

Ok, first off, for those who need some info on what a dress code in Arkansas means, basically, right now;
shorts-BANNED
short shirts-BANNED
skorts-BANNED
clothing with any holes whatsoever-BANNED
sandals-BANNED

Here are the school boards reasons for these things.


For shorts; some females had been constantly wearing shorts that the school board deemed "too short" and "distracting". Rather than continue with the "shorts have to reach your knees/fingertips" thing, they decided to not only be lazy, but unfair and simply ban the shorts for the entire school popuplation.
Forever. Not only this, but they also decided to allow capri pants.
Female pants.
Geuss what? Guys aren't allowed to wear capris. Period. They see it as wrong.
You know what I see it as?
Sexist.

For short skirts; same as shorts./skorts

Clothing with holes are also along the same lines.
Distracting.
Know what I deem it?
Bull

Sandals.
Who knows?
I don't
can't really comment on this one.


Topic 2: Hair Codes.
Ok. Here's the lowdown on hair codes.
Yet again, our sexist Arkansan( and some Texas, as far as I know)
Have instituted hair codes.
Girls have to wear their hair a CERTAIN WAY. REGARDLESS OF HOW THEIR HAIR ACTUALLY GROWS.
Same with guys.

No comment nescesarry.

Topic 3: Attitude of School officials.

More recently than ever, the schools seem to be getting an attitude of "you have no rights when at school, you have no rights until you're 18, we are above the law, we don't give a rubber duck what you think". And then they procede with all kinds of positive attitude and "you're free" propaganda and such. Say something they don't like? SDC. Wear a t-shirt they think is "bad"? SDC. A girl was SUSPENDED for wearing an anti-war t-shirt, I thought we had the right to express ourselves, the right to free speech, freedom of the press, etc. Another kid was also punished for putting up pro-war things in his locker. Another instance of my point.

I feel that the school has become horribly unconstitutional, and that this is ignored, mainly, because we're young, we're kids, and nobody seems to want to mess with it. If adults had to go through this, they would be able to do all sorts of things against it. Not to mention the fact that any politition who goes against the school is like a pope saying Christianity is bull. NO ONE is going to listen to that pope, and they'll all think he's a shih-tzu head. My point is, there has been an ever-growing power in the schools, and I have presented to you my feelings and opinions on the matter. To sum up, I believe that many of the things the schools are doing are unconstitutional, and conflict with man's "unalienable rights" that are in the American constitution.

Please, don't tell me I'm just a whining American snob, or a baby, or to get over it. Please, think of my situation, and tell me what you REALLY fell. Not what has been influenced upon you by others. Just your personal feelings, and if you feel that I am right, wrong, or just a whining loser.

:weebl: (end of thingie):weebl:

[donkey_pie]

I have to admit that those rules are bad, and I agree that u have a very strong point...

However, in the UK, nearly every school has a school uniform to start off with.

Noone at our school has ever been able to wear shorts, short skirts, sandals, trainers..... and anything other than trousers, skirt, shirt and blazer. They also have rules about certain hair styles.

Out of interest, what excuse do they use for making you have your hair the same way as everyone else?:confused:

[Sloth]

first of all your school's admin. didn't properly explain why a dress code should be enforced... they could easily skipped the hassle by saying its unsafe to wear those types of clothing... most certainly sandals... they do not properly protect your feet...

also the distraction excuse is a very good reason to enforce a dress code... is it fair to effect other people's learning just so you can express yourself?... and since when is school a place of public expression?... last time i knew your suppose to be studying!

the reason why the pro-war and anti-war kids got punished is because it causes trouble... pure and simple... the fact that you stated both got in trouble, makes me sure they did it for the right reasons...

you watch tv and you see... say, a public protest... do you think that these protesters just pile up in one place and start ranting?... no... they actually get gov't. permission to create a rally in a public place... they have to say when, where, and how many... this is when cops get a bad name... when someone organizes a public rally/protest... they are given a set amount of people who can particapate to keep things safe... when it goes over the limited... thats when police have to deny access... then ofcourse the ignorant... scream 'opression!'... then a couple of trouble makers break some window and start some fires...

you can express yourself... you can write to your congressman, your state rep., the local paper, when you give a speech in school... when you write a paper... when you're asked a question...

you should ask your grandparents how much 'freedom' they had when they were a kid... back in the days when public humiliation and pain was the most used forms of punishment... the fact is KIDS HAVE IT EASY IN THIS AGE! and i know for a fact because i have gotten through school quite easily... i never had felt that i have been censored... although my school might be cooler than your's... i did get to where my ren and stimpy tee... that shown the victim, stimpy, of the flying butt-pliers...

i suggest you watch SLC Punk... i know i ramble and have a hard time typing my point across...

but your right... the hair thing doesn't make much sense...

[squealpiggy]

School dress codes. Hmm... I disagree with school dress codes. I think they should have a uniform. Think about it, if everyone has a uniform then you don't have rich kids in designer gear poking fun at poor kids in Wal-Mart specials, you don't have one group of people having a go at nother group because of how they dress and the parents don't have to fret about what you wear at school. It also will prepare you for work, where inevitably there will be some kind of uniform or dress code.

School is easy when it comes to your interactions with teachers. The other kids and the fact that you have to be there makes it a bit like prison, but if the worst trouble you can get into is supension I wouldn't really worry.

[Pod]

god shut up. For 11 or so years of my life i wore a uniform to Primary and high school. I only got to wear my own clothes in College. I don't see the big deal. IF you want to "express" yourself : do it OUTSIDE of school. School is for LEARNING, not stating your political views.

Lots of clothing is unfit for school as it is too dangerous or too distracting, live with it. If you feel you're being "oppressed" then form some crap angst driven band.


+ School girls look horny in uniforms :E


one final point :

Topic 2: Hair Codes.
Ok. Here's the lowdown on hair codes.
Yet again, our sexist Arkansan( and some Texas, as far as I know)
Have instituted hair codes.
Girls have to wear their hair a CERTAIN WAY. REGARDLESS OF HOW THEIR HAIR ACTUALLY GROWS.
Same with guys.

No comment nescesarry.


How is that sexist? If girls were forced a certain hairstyle, and lads could do whatever, like having blue mohicans, then THAT would be sexist. Imposing restrition on both sexs is NOT sexist for crying out loud.

[squealpiggy]

In my day if you were late for school they would thrash you. Twice! If you were not late they only thrashed you once! If you contravened uniform rules they made you wash with soap laced with razor blades and if you tried to make a political statement they would cut you into bits wi' t'breadknife and dance on your grave singin hallelujah. And you tell kids that these days... they don't believe you.

[Fruiterian]

If they punished a girl for wearing an anti-war shirt, I hope to see anyone wearing pro-war shirts punished too.

Hair? Pweh. That's probably the most powerful way to define yourself. You can be all bleached out blonde and conformist, spike it, have it long, short, cut in a weird way, dyed a color of the rainbow (the last two inches of my hair is bright blue, see pics in post your pic thread), the possibilities are endless.

I can see banning shorts, skirts, et cetera, but I might be more biased for this bit because I refuse to wear shorts. They cut them too short for everyone nowadays and I hate wearing things that are too revealing. I always wear capris, long skirts, or pants; I have a few shorter skirts but I'm always shy about wearing them. A good rule would be things from the knee down allowed, that includes capris, shorts cut for boys, et cetera.

Anti-tank top and anti-stomach rules are usually poorly enforced in my area. Many teachers don't give a fuck about what their kids wear, unless they're nunesque and punish anyone wearing anything that they deem "inappropriate."

I heard once that they banned certain items of clothing to keep out a "satanic subculture" at a school. Most of these were goth-esque clothing items. Not all goths are satanists. Banning things based on social stereotypes is fairly ignorant.

But I'd agree with these rules less as the years wear on. School is about discovering yourself as well as academics, fashion, wether we like it or not, can define us. Your fashions can effect how the world sees you. That's one thing I love about my school, there is a dress code, but just against tank tops and stomach, these rules, as I said, are often disregarded. My classes that I've been in have had pretty much no problems with these, but I've heard that some classes are getting far worse and slutty with their clothing. Stupid parents. They're the ones to blame the most for those atrocities. -_-

[squealpiggy]

People should be punished for wearing tshirts of any kind. School isn't for expressing yourself. That's what college is for. School is for learning. I have no children but I pay taxes which go towards teaching you kids things you need to learn. Express your self in your own time like everyone that works has to!

[Ferret Pie]

I hate you sloth, you are a conformist. Also since when have protestors had to get permission? You're talking out of your wallet and you know it!
[edit]
Squeal piggy, you also suck etc!!! BOOOO!!!!!
Anyway, i have to wear a uniform, my only way of self appearance choosing (words chosen on purpose) is my hair, so beautiful!!!ahhh

[Pod]

erm, protestors have always needed permission. Whats wrong with being a "conformist". If no one conformed, what would happen? or if everyone was non-conformist, would those people that did conform become "individuals" or whatever it is you feel you become when you don't follow some god damn simple rules.

[Fruiterian]

Conforming and induviduality are such different things.

People who have the courage to be themselves, they are the induvidualists. Someone who has the courage to be themselves without having the support of others, THAT'S being induvidual.

Conforming is about trying to fit in, be like everyone else, so you have your little support group, somewhere where you feel comfortable, but it doesn't mean that your life is going to be any better.

Induviduality can lead to more valuable friendships, in addition to a smattering of other things.

If everyone wanted to become induviduals, people who still continued to be themselves would still be induviduals. They might be more conforming, but if they are the sort of people who scorn popular culture with no reason in mind, then they are just as conforming, but to a different set of ideals than the mainstream.

Blame the parents for the recent generation's sluttiness, though.

Though I still believe that the hair thing is ridiculous.

[squealpiggy]

Everyone is an individual except me!

And I don't suck, Ferret person.:p

[El_MUERkO]

All school girls should look like this at all times.

http://www.kill-bill.com/images/gallery/gogoyubari_01.jpg

[Dude]

think yourself lucky, in my school, we have got to where uniform!!

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by El_MUERkO
All school girls should look like this at all times.

http://www.kill-bill.com/images/gallery/gogoyubari_01.jpg

I concur. No I don't!

*mustn't be accused of grooming*:eek:

[SemiCircle]

ignoring your original post almost completely, i shall say this:

it seems school uniforms are indeed a good idea. irritating though they are for the kids to wear, they do prevent discrimination on the basis of fashion (what a strangely spelt word, don't you thing?). the fact that kids in uniforms get teased by other kids on their way home isn't really the teachers' problem, unless it interferes with the child's learning.

on the other hand, excessive monotony could well dull the child's learning as much as too much disorder. if they all wear the same thing and are prevented from expressing themselves in any way, there'll never be any genuinely stimulating peer-to-peer conversation about clothes, beliefs, etc. which is bad.

at some point, the kids will be mature enough to discuss rather than laugh at their differences. at that point uniforms should be scrapped.
a similar theory would apply to your seemingly despotic new dress code.

and yes, girls do look sexy in such school uniforms. this is a good thing for those lucky blokes who go/went to a mixed school. wankers. literally.

[felixdahousecat]

School uniforms etc. are a good idea. To learn you need to be disciplined in you approach to it. School uniforms, dress codes or whatever you want to call them help to maintain that discipline by offering less distractions.
However the same rules should apply for girls as well as boys and vice versa such as girls being able to wear trousers, boys being able to have long hair.

[Fruiterian]

I don't personally believe in uniforms, or strict dress codes. I don't have much reason to back myself up, but I just don't.

As I said before, fashion is one way that you communicate your ideals to the world, developing this sense of fashion during your school years is a good idea.

Once again, as I said previously, my schools have never had a problem with people wearing inappropriate things. freedom of what you wear is another freedom that you'll have during your adult years. Why not have it during your school years too?

But I can see why uniforms have their merits. Clothes are expensive: all clothes, uniforms would decrease the costs of that, et cetera, harrassment due to clothes, shit like that, blah blah blah. There's probably shit that I'm neglecting to say, but, eh, you get the point.

[Sloth]

Originally posted by Ferret Pie
I hate you sloth, you are a conformist. Also since when have protestors had to get permission? You're talking out of your wallet and you know it! knowing that someone called me a comformist makes me chuckle... you have no idea who i am...

we have always had to get a protest/rally scheduled and controled... You can voice your opinion, but no matter how important you think it is... you DO NOT have the right to disrupt or endanger anyone's life...

my wallet, atm, contains $16... i make less than 20,000 a year... i owe over twice that in student loans and bills... i don't work for a major corp.... i don't belong to a chuch... i have no investments... why would i be talking out of my wallet?

but thats my opinion... i'm sorry for you... for hating me for it...

[squealpiggy]

As I said before, fashion is one way that you communicate your ideals to the world, developing this sense of fashion during your school years is a good idea

But should you really be communicating your ideals to the world before you know what they are or if you do know what they are you understand the implications and theories behind those ideals? Schools should theoretically give you the information to define your ideals and believe in them, otherwise it is sloganeering, not ethics. Hey... "Sloganeering, not ethics"... Good slogan!

[almighty_bob]

Although my view is Wise One is just a whining American loser, thgat mainly applies to the former issues, however, the right to express issues such as the war, just goes to show the truth in the phrase is correct;
'sleep americans, for ur government is watching over u'
for those who have the power to see me type, post, n me in general;
i am not evil, i just have opinions.
A.

[Maros]

After having lived in both America and England (grades 8 and 9 in America, years 7, 8, 10 and 11 in England) I have to say that uniform sucks. While the odd now and then I might have gotten a little stick in America from other people, that can always be blown off or returned in one way or another. Unfortunately, the uniform i have to put up with in England is god awful. Too damn hot in the summer and bloody freezing in the winter.

On the note of winter, the girls at one school a while back complained that they couldn’t wear trousers. As a result, loads of schools now allow this. The school next to mine offers the option of wearing them bootleg thingies. My loving school however, offered the most awful looking pair ever. They’re choice, but not very popular as you might imagine.

Another thing, is that while in both countries, we had rival schools, at least if I wore my clothes we could blag that we went to another school if some kids from the rival started on us. In England, with our lovely uniforms, we get the shit ripped out of us one hell of allot. Granted it doesn’t help much it being a catholic school, and the other school being about ten yards away on land that we sold them, but that’s beside the point.

My school in England, apparently has rules about us lads whacking gel in our hair. I've ignored this since I got back from America. I would have been happy to remove it, had a teacher given me a valid reason for doing so. This, however doesn’t include the usual "I'm a teacher, do what I say" thing. Because of my constantly ignoring the teachers who did this, they all stopped. Rather nice that.

While in America, quite a few mates of mine got yelled at for wearing weird shirts. But on the whole they were fairly good about it. I can see the reasoning behind insanely short shorts and what not, but not just regular shorts. Like below the knee shorts that lads wear or whatever. Hell I knew someone who wore shorts until there was snow on the ground.

After noticing that I'm ranting, I'll sum it up. Strict uniform sucks. Loose uniform is a bit better. Loose uniform referring to say, you gotta wear a shirt that’s one of these colours but can be any kind of shirt you want.

[Fruiterian]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
But should you really be communicating your ideals to the world before you know what they are or if you do know what they are you understand the implications and theories behind those ideals? Schools should theoretically give you the information to define your ideals and believe in them, otherwise it is sloganeering, not ethics. Hey... "Sloganeering, not ethics"... Good slogan!

True. However, a job of a high school is to instill you with the basic ideas necessary for formulating political and social stances later in life. Considering today's teenage population, many don't give a shit. I give slighty more than average, but I'm pretty sure I'm still ignorant compared to many others.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be uniforms in the earlier grades: I think the younger you are, the better of an idea it is. It instills the ideas of presentable dress, hopefully they won't be corrupted in later years.

A certain color shirt/pants is a better idea than a full-out uniform, a loose uniform for a high-school environment, but if you're going to have a loose uniform/strict dress code (eh, you know what I mean with that) you might as well have rules mandating appropriate clothing instead of colors and stuff. To me it just doesn't make sense to go halfway.

Have minimal dress code or uniforms. It makes life easier. (but who said life was easy...?)

[Dr-Electro]

.Ferret Pie, it might be a better idea not to antagonize people with inflammatory remarks like those. You don't know the people you are bitching out, so be careful how you express your feelings toward them. They have done nothing to provoke rage from you, so don't provoke them.


Many eons ago, like during the early stone age, I was a schoolkid in Texas. More on that later in this post.

I now work at Permian High School in Odessa, Texas. If you have ever heard of the book / upcoming motion picture titled "Friday Night Lights," Permian is the subject school of the book/movie. Permian is a large school, for West Texas and the kids who attend are as individualistic as any others anywhere. They like to experiment with fashion and grooming and are still trying to find themselves in spite of all the turmoil of adolescence.

Permian does not require uniforms, but the Junior High Schools that feed into Permian do require uniforms. The students entering Permian in the tenth grade feel a sense of liberation after wearing the uniform for three years prior. However, they are aware of the dress codes that do apply.

Now, back to my own adolescence. We are talking about an earlier time. The Sixties, to be exact. The Viet Nam war was on TV all the time, along with protests and riots. America seemed like a rather uncivilized place at the time.

My school, Pecos High School, had strict dress codes that were harshly enfoeced. The school admins were heavy-handed, capricious and hateful. No one at the time had any qualms about beating the crap out of a mere student in a public school, not even the parents. My generation was probably the last "spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-child" generation for some time to come.

If we violated the dress code, we were hauled into the Principal's office and beaten with weapons. (Okay, to use the euphemism of the day, we were "paddled" or "spanked." Whatever, corporal punishment comes down to causing pain to someone else and should be considered a form of abuse.) Then, we were sent home to change clothes or sent to the barbershop to get a haircut. Our grades reflected the "violations" too. Basically, we were treated harshly but none of us knew any other way of being disciplined. We had all grown up the same way our parents had: daily whippings were considered good for us by the older generation.

Then, we grew up. We became parents and had to figure out how to deal with our own offspring and their non-conformist behavior. As a generation of parents, we generally disagreed with what we had to endure during our childhood. We revolted against the concept of corporal punishment and refused to abuse our own children. (Bear in mind that this is a broad generalization, not a statement of universal fact. Children are still being abused, but that is a different subject altogether.)

Now, we are amused by watching our grandchildren experience puberty and adolescence in their own "unique" ways. In some ways they are exactly like we were at their ages. In other ways, they seem like extraterrestial aliens bent on world dominance or destruction. Whatever.

The point is, some measure of discipline and control is required to keep a society functioning. Your school is a microcosm of your society in general. If the school officials believe a dress code is necessary, just bear with it for the short few years you are in school. Then when you become the stupid adults who will always be less intelligent than the children you have to deal with, you can be the object of scorn and derision just like the stupid adults you are dealing with today.

Try to remember that what goes around comes around. That means tha you are stuck on a wheel of life whether you like it or not. If you refuse to conform to your society's norms, your society will punish you. That is true whether you are in a public school, a military force or the public sector as an adult worker. You can be a doctor, lawyer, baker candlestick maker, Indian chief, or bricklayer. No matter what, you must conform to the laws that apply to you whether you agree with them or don't. If you fail to comply with those laws, you will eventually suffer the consequences. These consequences include imprisonment, huge fines and the death penalty.

Not trying to scare you or anything like that, but you need to realize that no matter how old you are, no matter who you are, and no matter where you live, there will always be rules, regulations and laws you have to "conform" to and live by.

Once you have experienced a few years of adulthood and learned what genuine hardships are really like, school dress codes will seem like child's play. Oh, yes! School dress codes are for children.

Try to focus on the parts of your childhood and adolescence that you enjoy and don't invest too much of your emotional time and energy on finding ways to fight the system. The path of least resistance will always be the one that follows the rules and guidelines of your society. If you stray from the path, you will not like the consequences. The older you get, the harsher the consequences become.

Be a kid while you still can. Surviving school while your parents/guardians provide for you is a whopping huge great deal less stressful than being the parent/guardian of children you have to provide for. Don't fight the system, just enjoy the freedom of being a kid before you get shackled with the chore and boredom of being an adult

[squealpiggy]

A certain color shirt/pants is a better idea than a full-out uniform, a loose uniform for a high-school environment, but if you're going to have a loose uniform/strict dress code (eh, you know what I mean with that) you might as well have rules mandating appropriate clothing instead of colors and stuff. To me it just doesn't make sense to go halfway.


Trouble with a vague dress code is that teenagers start to find ways of abusing it. And it isn't just teenagers, there's a guy in his late thirties at work and we have a smart casual dress code. So he wears bright orange shirts because the dress code says shirt... he wears hawaain shirts and stuff, he looks a mess but he does it to piss off "the management" in the mistaken belief that they actually care!

[Scribbly]

dress and hair code? dude that sucks.. I thought the USA was supposed to be a country of free expression and such?

I can't imagine going to a school where I'd be told what to wear..

Pie. (no comment) :weebl:

[squealpiggy]

Sooner or later you're going to get a job with a dress code though. Then you won't ming dress codes at school. And the United States is one of the most restrictive "free" countries in the world. If you say something wrong about the wrong person you could be sued.

[Sloth]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Sooner or later you're going to get a job with a dress code though. Then you won't ming dress codes at school. And the United States is one of the most restrictive "free" countries in the world. If you say something wrong about the wrong person you could be sued. so lets me get this straight... if i start making t-shirts that says, "(squealpiggy's real name) flogs sheep," and has a photo'chop of you flogging a sheep... and i end up making a nice profit from it...

you won't do anything about it?

[Fruiterian]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Sooner or later you're going to get a job with a dress code though. Then you won't ming dress codes at school. And the United States is one of the most restrictive "free" countries in the world. If you say something wrong about the wrong person you could be sued.

especially in this day and age of political correctness. Some of it is just plain stupid, others I find make sense: most of it doing with religion, especially with all the muslim extremists out there we do need to become more tolerant of cultures, but not to the point where if we're insulted one little bit then you'd get sued.

As for dress codes when I get older, I just want to work at home... though I know it's going to be impossible. I'd love to become an artist: commercial or just for the hell of it.

There's shitloads of copyright laws too that restrict shit like making tshirts and stuff. I'm never too sure how that works.

But if you made a shirt saying "fru smells like old rotting cabbage" or something along nasty insulting lines, I'd be more amused and flattered than insulted.

edit // gah, I'm used to the PHPbb way of doing things. ^_^

[Ferret Pie]

Most of this does not apply to me as i intend to take over a small island by means i cannot mention for fear of discovery.
The whole idea of trying to force people to wear what you want them to wear is ridiculous, the argument that clothes can be bad because of other peoples opinions does not matter, anyone wearing things other people dislike usually won't care what others think about them anyway.
As for the idea that one day we will all have to get a job with a dress code. That is ridiculous, any job i would want requires no uniform unless it is protective (e.g apron or lab coat).

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Sloth
so lets me get this straight... if i start making t-shirts that says, "(squealpiggy's real name) flogs sheep," and has a photo'chop of you flogging a sheep... and i end up making a nice profit from it...

you won't do anything about it?

No I wouldn't. I'm comfortable with the fact that I flog sheep, my friends are very supportive of my sheep flogging and as for my family, well they're going to have to find out sometime!

I might start up my own line that profits from your marketing effort and if you try and sue I will countersue, but I'm not the suing type.

And noone will force you to wear clothes. But they also won't force you to remain in your job. You're still free tpo wear what you want on your own time, when you're on company time you sell a portion of your freedom for the means to live, and when you're in school you are benefitting from tax dollars so you should wait until you're done school before "expressing" yourself.

[Dr-Electro]

Yes, indeed. I have seen people go to job interviews looking like something out of a cheap horror movie. Messed up hair, tattooed faces, pierced everything, basically looking like some piece of shit that washed up on an artic beach after a year in the ocean. Sitting right next to the piece of shit were people dressed like the people they were trying to get a job from. Who got the job? If you guessed the walking cadavers and pincushions were thrown back into the sea, you are right. Nobody I know hires superpunks for any job worth having. They don't even get hired as dishwashers around here. Imagine that.

In certain instances, dressing to conform shows a little self-respect and respect for the potential employer. If you are not into self-respect and don't need a steady paycheck to live on, go ahead and "express yourself" all over the place.

Conforming to society's norms is not in itself a bad thing. Self-expression can be as subtle as the fragrance you wear or my own neatly trimmed beard. You don't have to jam your individuality up other people's noses and be obnoxious in the process. Moderation makes life a hell of a lot easier than extremism in any dorection.

[Fruiterian]

... what about a subtle punch of blue? O_O

I agree with looking presentable, no sort of "superpunk" sort of thing. That's ridiculous.

But induviduality can be expressed in subtle ways. I agree. I have a few pairs of glasses from over the years, some were wire frames, the ones I have now are thick black plastic frames. Switch them around, to me they're the same sort of thing, but to someone else, it could be a huge change.

But what's wrong with letting some of it out in school? ^^

[Wise One]

sorry i havent posted in a bit, but it seems my post has become a bit of a point of interest.

Just a few things to clear up.

Recently, freedom has seemed to come second to what people think is "right".

Also, people seem to think kids have no rights.

And pod, the sexist thing about girls having to wear their hair one way and boys the other is basically like; ok you're a boy, so your hair can't touch your ears, but girls HAVE to have hair at their shoulders.

I just find it bullcrap that someone who is expressing their opinion of the war is suspended. People have freedom of the press, and freedom of opinion, REGARDLESS of anything a school thinks. They should be alowed to say and speak and write what they believe


Thank you for responding to my post, and your arguments will become a part of my protest :).

I'll tell you how it goes, though I'll probably get suspended, I'll go down with honor!!!!!THOSE DIRTY OPPRESSIONISTS WILL PAY!!:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Reddig]

Heh, wow. And i thought that my old school was strict about clothing...

Technically in Poland there is no such thing as clothe codes. Not in general at least - some schools have uniforms, but this happens rather rarely. In most of our schools it doesn't matter what you wear (as long as it is not too ofencive, like "fuck miss Smith and her sodding class IIIe.), i guess nothing bad would happen to you if you wore a "fuck the system" t-shirt. At worst you might get a notice from a teacher, but that's pretty much all. The same thing with hair - dreads, mohawks (sorry for the spelling if it's wrong, theese words are not in the dictionary ;]) long hair, no hair - whatever you want. The only rule is that you don't go arround with too many parts of your body naked.


Actually, i don't care about school uniforms. Maybe they solve a few problems, but then again i wouldn't be able to wear a few of my faovrite t-shirts to school, and that sucks (i really like the "cannabis high-quality marihuana products" t-shirt my mom gave me after a trip to Netherlands ;])


And could anyone tell me what's wrong with sandals???

[squealpiggy]

Expressing views about the war can lead to trouble. Think about it, you will have some people against the war and some meatheads who will believe the crap about it being anti-american to disagree with the war who will then beat up the anti-war kids. Schoolkids are on the most part still wraped up in petty tribalism and it would create a polarised situation where trouble could easily flare.

Now imagine that you are a teacher, you've done your five years of colege to get the job and that's what it is, your job. Do you really want to spend your day breaking up fights between 14-18 year olds who could well be bigger than you? They're not police officers or bouncers and they're not trained as such. By protesting you are getting in the way of harmony at school and potentially being an obstruction to learning. Protest against the war outside of school!

Noone is saying you don't have rights but I think that your rights in school should reflect your rights at work.

[Dr-Electro]

Sandals are ok for people who wash their feet regularly. Not ok for people with dirty feet. The system finds it easier to ban sandals than to police foot cleanliness. Their idea, not mine.

The school where I work has no rules about footwear, per se. I see kids in scuffs, mules, spike heels, boots of any description, sandals, rubber flip-flops, you name it as long as they are not barefoot. Then again, our librarian and assistant librarian go barefoot in the library and nobody seems to give a hoot.

Anti war slogans on shirts are not forbidden. Profanity on shirts is strictly forbidden and the ban is strictly enforced. There is also a ban on shirts with pro-school-violence slogans, such as "It's hunting season at Columbine, again." "Bring you guns to school week" and "Live free - shoot a classmate"

Those are just in bad taste for the most part, but our school officials are quite sensitive about the subject. \

The bid deal now is the photo ID cards we all have to wear around our necks. Yes, photo IDs hanging from one's neck. Nobody is too clear on how this promotes school safety and curbs school violence, but that is the stated purpose. I don't care, except that it is extra work for me to have to maintain the computers, printers and cameras that are used to make the IDs. Now, I even have to design new ID cards on demand. You should see the fiasco it turns into at every semester regristration session. :evil:

I personally think that school dress codes reflect the level of conservatism at the policy-making level of a given school district. The idea is not to rob the individual student of personal freedom, it is to make life easier for those of us who have to enforce the policies. At times, this idea seems self-contradictory.

I agree with the point that fewer confrontations leads to fewer fights. We actually have real police officers on campus, but they can't possibly be everywhere at once. They do a marvelous job of keeping the gangs under control, but when it comes down to individuals deciding to beat the crap out of each other, the police are usually there after the fact.

KIds, don't rebel against the system too vigorously. We are really not out to make your lives miserable. We just like to get through the day in peace, at least once a week. Your cooperation is appreciated far more than you will ever realize.

[squealpiggy]

The thing about ID cards isn't too shocking. I mean I have to have an ID card at work, I had to have one at university, I had one in College and I couldn't get entry without my pass or checking in with security. It gives you an extra level of security should you see someone acting suspiciously, you have a reason to ask them to leave. It can't be argued with:
"What are you doing?"
"Waiting for class"
"What class?"
"English"
"What's your teacher's name?"
"I don't know, I'm new"
"You have to leave"
"I'm not leaving I need to get to class!"

or

"What are you doing?"
"Waiting for class"
"May I see your ID"
"I don't have it"
"Then you have to leave, no ID no entry"

It's black and white then.

National ID cards on the other hand are pointless.

[Ferret Pie]

off topic, squelpiggy are ypou american, you said Tax dollars but location is Manchester.

On topic: i don't like ID's or the continental idea that everyone must have papers and things which can be randomly chexked. My dodgy looking friend was asked for ID by french police but his essential dopeyness drove them off. If everyone has to carry round ID then it makes it annoying if you forget it and an invasion of some rights. It's a good idea but for some reason i just don't agree.

[SemiCircle]

compulsory id is somewhat sinister, it's but a stone's throw from 1984.

[squealpiggy]

No I'm british but I am moving to Canada soon so I'm getting down with the lingo.

[Fruiterian]

We're supposed to wear IDs. No one above freshman year really does, though. I wear mine on a clip so it isn't too invasive, only because my keys are on there too. They're supposed to be cracking down on a lot of things, too... -_-

For example, we're not supposed to eat in the hallways. Some teachers don't care, for others it pisses them off. I eat in the hallways, as do most people in my little area of the hallway. I throw out all my shit, as does everyone else, but a lot of my peers don't. It kind of sucks, considering that one cafeteria is painted like a McDonald's and it is just like... gah and the other one is crowded and invaded by freshmen. The majority of the school eats in the hallways.

but no one really cares about the dress code though.

[Dr-Electro]

There seems to be a problem in getting our teachers to enforce the ID rules. They don't make the students wear them in the classrooms. Walking the halls with the assistant principals gives one an interesting insight:

Assistant principal says, "Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. Put on your Id. "

No other conversation is possible. Some of the students comply while others try to ignore the assistant principals. Others are openly defiant and usually get such horrendous punishments as lunch D-Hall. Big woo.

The concept was originally to easily identify students who belong in school. The system has become self-defeating. Cooperation from all parties would be a good thing, but is not likely to occur.

[smiley clown]

I think our uniform is a good thing because the school looks a lot neater even though people dont wear them properly. There are people who would be picked on a lot more without uniforms.

Also, our sixth form dont have to wear unifrom anymore so that a good thing because all the people likely to bully people who are likely to bully people have left school and people form the lower school dont bullypeople in the sixth form.

[Ouroboros]

The trouble with my uniform is that it is far too strict. You MUST wear this EXACT tie completely done up, you must wear this EXACT type of white shirt and all the buttons MUST be done up, what's that? It chokes you almost to death? I don't care. You MUST wear this blazer all the time, and you MUST wear black polished smart shoes and grey socks. You miss out one thing? Leave the top button of your shurt undone? You get punished. Even on the way to and from school, if a teacher sees you without your tie on or something, your gonna get in trouble. And the problem with that is that the school I go to is considered "posh" by most other kids, who decide to beat the crap out of anyone wearing the schools blazer. And the teachers don't give a fuck if you get mugged and beaten up every day. At least it's better than the junior part of the school, where the blazers were bright red, and easy to spot.

Now that just can't be right.

[squealpiggy]

Think about if some junior year kid gets snatched by someone, and you have to ask around about whether or not they have been seen, people will remember a bright red blazer more than a normal coloured anorack or something.

[Smartie Popper!]

We have a horrible school uniform.
No choice no alternatives,nothing.

Does anyone complain?
Do they hell,whilst you're in school you are in your head/teachers care.

If they think you should wear a uniform,you do. End of subject.

You can form your own individual beliefs/opinions

The "hair thing" is probably something to do with saftey,If someone has loose hair they are more likely to set it on fire in a science class or trap it in a machine in Tech.

Damn,In my school you can't DYE your hair any un-natural colours.
Or have it too long...etc.

And,surprisingly enough,we ALL have our own opinions, we set up our own school forums for christs sake.

Wearing a school uniform dosen't mean you cant "express yourself"

[Fruiterian]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro
The concept was originally to easily identify students who belong in school. The system has become self-defeating. Cooperation from all parties would be a good thing, but is not likely to occur.

same thing with my school. they're actually going to start taking all their rules seriously now, no sleeping in the hallways (which is getting a bit of protest: it's a 8-4:30 school, without extracirriculars... many stay up really late to work on stuff), no music (as in instruments, specifically... it sucks because there's so many talented musicians who play in the hall ocassionally), no eating, no drinking, et cetera.

it really sucks sometimes. the cafeterias aren't exactly the most exciting places to be... and half the school eats in the hall. it's more comfortable, and no one has really cared until now. my section of hallway has always been clean but not everyone's is.

[Thatcow212]

but no skirts means no fun for guys during class!! wow that totally sux... my skool, doesnt really care... tho the debate has come up at board meetings (or so were told) and the parents dont want to have us wearing crap that doesnt show off us, ourselves... and so we can like, get away with scores shirts and other stuff like that at my high skool... but i guess NJ is less strict, or more stupid :confused:

[squealpiggy]

NJ is where Jay and Silent Bob are frome, that's all I know about the place.

[goody 2 shoos]

i have had a dress code since the 5th grade, and i dont really see why. Yes, some of the stuff should be banned in high school and stuff, but the 5th grade??? noone can really have sexual feelings, i mean the guys said they did but they were just trying to sound cool. But, since the fifth grade, we have to follow most of what the dress code says, sometimes stepping a toe over the line.
but wise one, your dress code is extremley unfair!
i mean, at least you can do that knee thing.
and those sexist items, and the hair!!! what, do the girls have to have shoulder length, medium thickness hair and the boys have to have regular short parted to the side?
you could probably have some people sign a petition.
or, just protest it by gathering up a couple hundred people from your school.
you can die everyones hair pink, wear big pimpin hats and ice, boys wear capris, girls were tight miniskirts and short shorts, plus wear tight von dutch shirts (they rock!):D
and wear high heeled shoes and loose skateboard shoes!
oh, and i just wanna say, everyone thinks n.j is bad, but arkansas? eeeeeeeeeeeeeew

[goody 2 shoos]

... but i guess NJ is less strict, or more stupid :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

u live in nj??????
wat part????
and jay and silent bob's is wierd... go down the street to funk n standard or better, nirvana

[Fruiterian]

new jersey? jeez, if you wanted to know about new joisey, why don't you ask the damn new jerseyan?

i.e., me.

[goody 2 shoos]

I AM FROM NEW JERSEY, THANK YOU VER MUCH!!!
what part are you from???
just give ur county, cuz anything else is wierd
but i live in monmouth county

[Dr-Electro]

Our scedules got turned upside-down over the Summer. Now, instead of 8:10 to 4:10, we are 6:30 to 4:45. think about how many hours work that is for us old poops. We don't get paid for the overtime, either.

At least the students don't have to put in that many hours. They either go to class from 7:30 to 3:45 or 8:30 to 4:45 with 50 minutes off for lunch. Their day is hectic, too, with seven 50-minute classes and only 5 minutes between classes to get from one part of the campus to another. Tardies are a real problem.

Up until this Fall, we had block scheduling. Only four classes a day, with a total of eight classes every two days. The teachers loved the scheduling, because they could actually get some work done without having to kill the students with homework. Those days are gone. The time for extracurricular activities is all messed up, too.

Our superintendent is a tyrannical Hitler-wannabe. A total donkey from end to end. He has cut salaries, cut benefits, raised insurance premiums, increased insurance co-pays, increased work hours and basically made life a living Hell for everybody who works in this district. He is even laying off teachers! The School Board loves him. We are doomed. Even the teachers will have to start punching in and out with a payroll clock, soon. They are mad as Hell.

I'm sorry, I didn't intend to get off on a rant, but there it is. Oops! I just fell off my soapbox and landed on my butt. Good night.

[Wise One]

I see they are even making a muck-up of it for teachers too......

I'm just mad at the top of the pyramid.....the teachers are mostly cool about it all.

The real bugger about it is that the ONLY people who like this are the people who ARE NOT involved......

and your students get 50 minutes of lunch?? I wish we got that much, we get about 20. It's supposed to be 30, but the lunch ladies don't even start working on setting up C-lunch until the bell rings. So we basically have to just down our food as fast as we can to beat the bell.

10 min. waiting for line to START moving.
3~7 min. to get through line.
2~5 min. to get the stuff you need (everyone is all crammed together)
and then FINALLY we get to eat, leavin about 8~16 minutes to eat, which isn't much, especially for the people at the end of the line. :(


Ah well, block scheduling was planned for Arkansas, but the schools that tried it failed miserably. Of course, that is, for everyone BUT the people actually going to the school....:mad:

[Dr-Electro]

Not really that much difference between Arkansas and Texas these days, is there? We both shipped our discarded governors to Washington D.C. to screw up the federal government, our school lunches suck the walls, good things like block scheduling get flung doen the toilet by the idiots in charge of mucking up the system, we both neighbor on Louisiana and have to stand the smell, we both border on Oklahoma and have to stand the smell, we hate damn Yankees and have to stand the smell, I guess the list could go on, but you get the idea. The system stinks.

(INcidentally, I am not calling all Unioners Damn Yankees. The difference between a Yankee and a Damn Yankee is simple: A Yankee comes down South for a visit and goes home. A Damn Yankee moves in next door and won't leave.)

Oh, to stay actualy on topic, I had it fairly easy on the dress code, as I got to wear jeans an time I wanted to. There were no uniforms, just regulations about shirt collars, (we had to have collars, no T-shirts allowed) slogans on clothing and hair length. The girls had the short end of the stick, not being allowed to wear pants of any description at any time, except for band uniforms or athletic uniforms.

We also had closed campus and were stuck eating the food in the vomitorium or carrying a brown bag. People talk about McDonald's burgers being fatty, they should have seen the lard patties we were fed. Of course, this was all thirty-some years ago, before people knew that fat was bad for kids.:rolleyes:

Right this moment, I am snacking on my own home-made shredded-beef tacos. Yum and a half! Helps soothe the memories of lard burgers.

[TrulsRohk17]

I know exatly how that is. Im a junior in high school down here in beatiful florida (had to say it damn advertisements) and we have the same problem. That say no sandels, no "beachware" but come on its florida, what else are we suppsoed to wear. BUt for the most part i've been lucky our adiminstration and teachers at the school are very into favorties and if they like u, u can get away with just about anything. Even tho im not consider to be "in" with the teachers they still allow me to have dyed my hair dark red, wear sandals and even prance around in a mini skirt (it was a dare, and im a guy so scary huh?,even tho it was only for an hour before i went beserk) but anyways if ur not on their "nice list" (alluding to Santa) they dont allow u even to even spike your hair. And if u do try to get some time of agreement set up u have to get a damn petion with over three fourths the schools signatures. Life sucsk doesnt it? :evil:

[goody 2 shoos]

nice font.
we want a petition to be signed.. but yea.. we need tonsa signatures.

[squealpiggy]

it was a dare, and im a guy so scary huh?,even tho it was only for an hour before i went beserk

wAcKy

Just out of interest, how old are you?

[Cloakey]

I had to put up with it when i was at skool so shut up and put up with it ureselves!

[goody 2 shoos]

wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllll
i think the whole world should go to one school, wear a uniform, speak the same language
and they should stay in that school through college, so noone has to worry about applications and ivy leagues....
it would just be simpler
but immpossible
cuz no school could fit like, 400millionbillionkatrilliongoogooplex people.:o

[Dr-Electro]

I favor the approach of just putting everybody in individual boxes until they turn eighteen. Then, when they are let out, give then a clothing budget to spend any way they damn well please. ( and that's all one big joke ):D

I have never seen or heard of a school dress code that was universally accepted. Parents object to one thing while the students object to another. No plan is foolproof, so most of the fools on our school boards have nothing better to do than to mess around with dress codes and spend too much money on athletics.

End the foolishness, fire all the schoolboards!

[TrulsRohk17]

well, to the last guy who asked how old i am. i'm 16 and bout to 17 in a month or two. so, I'm a youngen' yes but thats how it goes. And what is age but a number anyhow? And thanks for taking intertest in my strange stories, these's more but maybe i'll tell people about them later. Also, if u start putting kids (including myself) into uniforms i think that is surpress our right to show our personalitly. It also shows that the "goverment" would have way too much power, and in the U.S. that is pur ;liberty that we fought for adn we try to stop the governmert from having too much power, we dont need "big brother" watching our every move and telling us what we can dress,say, and do. I say no way in hell would i dress in uniform expect maybe once or twice a week (for like clubs and ROTC and stuff). PLus, from my stand point the more u show about yourself to the world , the better. As a great man once said, "give me liberty or give me death"

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by TrulsRohk17
well, to the last guy who asked how old i am. i'm 16 and bout to 17 in a month or two. so, I'm a youngen' yes but thats how it goes. And what is age but a number anyhow? And thanks for taking intertest in my strange stories, these's more but maybe i'll tell people about them later. Also, if u start putting kids (including myself) into uniforms i think that is surpress our right to show our personalitly. It also shows that the "goverment" would have way too much power, and in the U.S. that is pur ;liberty that we fought for adn we try to stop the governmert from having too much power, we dont need "big brother" watching our every move and telling us what we can dress,say, and do. I say no way in hell would i dress in uniform expect maybe once or twice a week (for like clubs and ROTC and stuff). PLus, from my stand point the more u show about yourself to the world , the better. As a great man once said, "give me liberty or give me death"

I hardly think that anyone fought for your right to have a nose ring and purple hair. And I'm no expert on the American constitution but as far as I am aware there is no amendment that says you have the right to dress as you like in school.

The freedoms you talk about are just a tad more important than that.

[goody 2 shoos]

i hate it when people make fun of americans
but this is what the constitution basicallt is
we can do whatever we want unless it makes another person's life harder
and drugs arent allowed
so basically you have to just keep everything to urself and not kill anyone or wreck property or steal something or deal or take drugs
but we are allowed to kill ourselves and express ourselves, unless we go naked in a public place or something
its complicated, u see
i want to move to the uk once in awhile cuz i mean, if you look in a world record book, it sounds soooo bad
i mean, were the most obese country, and were lazy!!!!
but its still great to live here, we have better movies
and you guys are stuck with the cheesy pop songs
and i watched the movie "hotel de love" and it was like, wierd
but it was fun!

[jimeh]

At my schoool:

Shirt tucked in at all times.
No blazer = detention.
No Tie = detention.
Trainers = Detention
You have to have your top button done up all the time.
You cant take your blazer off in summer.

The rules at my school are harsh.

[freddiestarfish]

my school

polo shirts as we got normal shirts abolished, as untucked they looked messy
ties - no longer
trousers or skirts, whatever you want - grey or black
any footwear allowed, providing its sensible, and black- ish, if you hav ewhite trainers on, its just a "change them now please"
+grey school sweater if you want

[often Ndisguise]

Originally posted by goody 2 shoos
i hate it when people make fun of americans
but this is what the constitution basicallt is
we can do whatever we want unless it makes another person's life harder
and drugs arent allowed
so basically you have to just keep everything to urself and not kill anyone or wreck property or steal something or deal or take drugs
but we are allowed to kill ourselves and express ourselves, unless we go naked in a public place or something
its complicated, u see
i want to move to the uk once in awhile cuz i mean, if you look in a world record book, it sounds soooo bad
i mean, were the most obese country, and were lazy!!!!
but its still great to live here, we have better movies
and you guys are stuck with the cheesy pop songs
and i watched the movie "hotel de love" and it was like, wierd
but it was fun!

:D :D :D :D :D :D LOL that is the funniest interpretation of america i have ever heard.

the rest of the world is catching up to america as far as obesity....its starting to become a problem in italy. Its kinda sad ...if only ppl would get mor exercise and not eat as much ice cream

[Norbington]

Originally posted by goody 2 shoos
wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll llllllll
i think the whole world should go to one school, wear a uniform, speak the same language
and they should stay in that school through college, so noone has to worry about applications and ivy leagues....
it would just be simpler
but immpossible
cuz no school could fit like, 400millionbillionkatrilliongoogooplex people.:o

6 billion dear

but then that's the entire population not the child population

I don't know what that is...and of course it varies all the time.

anyhoo

I think students should just put up with it. School i sfor learning not for self expression. When you get to collegge and university then you can express yourself and protest against anything you like, thats what students are meant to do, protest.

Until then stop complaining.

[often Ndisguise]

no students are meant to learn stuff, get a degree and drink beer. I say, drink beer, because 96 percent of all college students drink it . so i gues it goes with the student territory.

[TrulsRohk17]

I hardly think that anyone fought for your right to have a nose ring and purple hair. And I'm no expert on the American constitution but as far as I am aware there is no amendment that says you have the right to dress as you like in school.

Hmmm.. The constituion does give us the right to express freedom of speech, which includes more than just the spoken word. It includes the right for us to make our own decisions in this country, the decisoin to wear what u want, speak how we want, and to express ourselves in anyway possible in the confinement of law. People did die for our freedom in the United States, as did other nations in this world and other people from other nations fight for there freedom. So that they may not be opressed by the rulers before that limited there freedom to express what they belive. I definetly think that u, or others that have a problem with other expressing themselves in any way shape, or form need to go piss off. So, i dye my hair so what, i dont have a noise ring (would be kool tho) and others show themselves but how they dress and act. SO, i do have a big problem with authority over stepping there bounds and restraining our freedoms. And if u dont like it its your problem. :twisted:

[Dr-Electro]

Yes, well that issue of personal rights for arrogant adolescents continues to repeat every year in the school where I work. The kids think they have the right to knock down and step on and step over any adult who "gets in their way." There has been a decline in manners over time to the point that most of the teenagers who go to American schools don't give a rat's testicle about anybody except numero uno. Many of them seem to think, "I, me and myself are the only entity in this whole country who has any rights at all. I have the right to do what I please, when I please, to anyone I please and absolutely not one other single living person in this world has any rights at all. I do not have to consider anyone else's feelings ever. Get in front of me and you are in my face. That means that if I want to kill you, so be it. You have to respect my every whim and I don't have to respect anybody or anything. Your rules suck so I don't have to obey a single one of them unless I just feel like it."

Before the flaming starts, the preceeding statement is not intended as a personal attack on any given individual, whether living now, in the past of in the future. The statement is an aggregate of behaviors noted by many people in education. The statement in no way pertains to all students. The statement is a gross generalization of negative behaviors engendered by the concept of individual rights over collective rights.

I am fully aware that there are many children, including teenagers, alive today who are respectful and mannerly. I don't know very many of them personally, but I wish I did.

Before any of you students get too carried away spouting off about your rights, bear in mind that the document you are claiming to cite was not written with you personally in mind. In 1875, nobody had a clue that you would ever be born. The framers of the constitution wrote that document with the entire population of a growing nation in mind. The governing principle of the constitution sets forth more than personal rights, it sets forth all the concepts behind all the laws of our nation and people.

The constitution charges you with responsibilities, just as it grants you certain rights. The constitution does not grant you the right to act like a brat in public. The constitution grants all the people of the United States of America collective freedom of expression as a whole. It does not grant you personally the right to flagrantly violate rules set forth by the people placed into the position of trust that is taking care of you while you are in public education. It does guarantee us all certain freedoms, but every right and freedom and privelege granted is balanced by a responsibility to all the rest of us all the time.

Talk about your responsibilities as much as you talk about your rights that you think we are taking away from you. See if your attitude changes. Think about the responsibilities of the people who were hired to keep you alive through all those years of formal education. Think about how hard we all try to live up to our responsibilities without crying aloud that our rights are being violated by the tyranny of the system.

I think it goes along with the concept of growing up.

Now, as far as I am concerned, you can go to any school in America dressed any way you want, as long as you have clothes on. The rest of it is just window dressing for a young mind under construction. I just hope we get that part of it right, I would hate to release a generation of uneducated people on the world.

Yes, I hated dress codes when I was in high school and bitched about my rights all the time too. The concept is that if I point one finger at you, I'm pointing three fingers at myself. Same goes for you when you point fingers, too.:D

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by TrulsRohk17
Hmmm.. The constituion does give us the right to express freedom of speech, which includes more than just the spoken word. It includes the right for us to make our own decisions in this country, the decisoin to wear what u want, speak how we want, and to express ourselves in anyway possible in the confinement of law. People did die for our freedom in the United States, as did other nations in this world and other people from other nations fight for there freedom. So that they may not be opressed by the rulers before that limited there freedom to express what they belive. I definetly think that u, or others that have a problem with other expressing themselves in any way shape, or form need to go piss off. So, i dye my hair so what, i dont have a noise ring (would be kool tho) and others show themselves but how they dress and act. SO, i do have a big problem with authority over stepping there bounds and restraining our freedoms. And if u dont like it its your problem. :twisted:

I hardly think that your schoolteacher saying that your dress has to conform to certain standards comes close to you being oppressed. I mean think about it, it's not even a lot to ask, and outside school and after you graduate you can dress how you please so what's the problem?

To learn more about oppression which is going on worldwide check out Amnesty International (http://www.amnesty.org/) .

[pie chicken]

school uniform is good in some ways, its better than home clothes cos then u dont get the p**s ripped out of you if you wear "uncool clothes"

[Norbington]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro
Yes, well that issue of personal rights for arrogant adolescents continues to repeat every year in the school where I work. The kids think they have the right to knock down and step on and step over any adult who "gets in their way." There has been a decline in manners over time to the point that most of the teenagers who go to American schools don't give a rat's testicle about anybody except numero uno. Many of them seem to think, "I, me and myself are the only entity in this whole country who has any rights at all. I have the right to do what I please, when I please, to anyone I please and absolutely not one other single living person in this world has any rights at all. I do not have to consider anyone else's feelings ever. Get in front of me and you are in my face. That means that if I want to kill you, so be it. You have to respect my every whim and I don't have to respect anybody or anything. Your rules suck so I don't have to obey a single one of them unless I just feel like it."

Before the flaming starts, the preceeding statement is not intended as a personal attack on any given individual, whether living now, in the past of in the future. The statement is an aggregate of behaviors noted by many people in education. The statement in no way pertains to all students. The statement is a gross generalization of negative behaviors engendered by the concept of individual rights over collective rights.

I am fully aware that there are many children, including teenagers, alive today who are respectful and mannerly. I don't know very many of them personally, but I wish I did.

Before any of you students get too carried away spouting off about your rights, bear in mind that the document you are claiming to cite was not written with you personally in mind. In 1875, nobody had a clue that you would ever be born. The framers of the constitution wrote that document with the entire population of a growing nation in mind. The governing principle of the constitution sets forth more than personal rights, it sets forth all the concepts behind all the laws of our nation and people.

The constitution charges you with responsibilities, just as it grants you certain rights. The constitution does not grant you the right to act like a brat in public. The constitution grants all the people of the United States of America collective freedom of expression as a whole. It does not grant you personally the right to flagrantly violate rules set forth by the people placed into the position of trust that is taking care of you while you are in public education. It does guarantee us all certain freedoms, but every right and freedom and privelege granted is balanced by a responsibility to all the rest of us all the time.

Talk about your responsibilities as much as you talk about your rights that you think we are taking away from you. See if your attitude changes. Think about the responsibilities of the people who were hired to keep you alive through all those years of formal education. Think about how hard we all try to live up to our responsibilities without crying aloud that our rights are being violated by the tyranny of the system.

I think it goes along with the concept of growing up.

Now, as far as I am concerned, you can go to any school in America dressed any way you want, as long as you have clothes on. The rest of it is just window dressing for a young mind under construction. I just hope we get that part of it right, I would hate to release a generation of uneducated people on the world.

Yes, I hated dress codes when I was in high school and bitched about my rights all the time too. The concept is that if I point one finger at you, I'm pointing three fingers at myself. Same goes for you when you point fingers, too.:D

You sir, are absolutely right.

I now have more respect for you than I already did.

[eleanor]

Norb, that quote made the page huge! :p

Think yourselves lucky with your dresscodes... we had uniforms. Dr-E had it even harder. Now, at uni, they don't care - because everyone's mature enough to know to dress appropriately anyway.

[Fruiterian]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro
Yes, well that issue of personal rights for arrogant adolescents continues to repeat every year in the school where I work. The kids think they have the right to knock down and step on and step over any adult who "gets in their way." There has been a decline in manners over time to the point that most of the teenagers who go to American schools don't give a rat's testicle about anybody except numero uno. Many of them seem to think, "I, me and myself are the only entity in this whole country who has any rights at all. I have the right to do what I please, when I please, to anyone I please and absolutely not one other single living person in this world has any rights at all. I do not have to consider anyone else's feelings ever. Get in front of me and you are in my face. That means that if I want to kill you, so be it. You have to respect my every whim and I don't have to respect anybody or anything. Your rules suck so I don't have to obey a single one of them unless I just feel like it."
eh, to make this shorter i'm just going to quote this bit.

-my semiglorious return to posting... i guess.-

as i mentioned earlier in the thread, my school is now enforcing rules that were failed to be enforced earlier. i personally find these rules unfair, but i'm having trouble finding a logical reason to rebel against them. as much as it's difficult to admit, maybe the rules make sense.

the hallways are a little hectic and a little loud at times, moreso in some areas more than others. my area, as i mentioned, was cleaner than some of the others. but it's also fairly loud at times. it's a big group in the little T shaped area.

now, i've always been well behaved compared to most. (in the hallways at least. i've cut class occassionally... -shame-) I eat in the hallways, but i always make sure to clean up. i'm somewhat hyper, but i walk around more than i yell and talk.

...but that's me. that's not everyone. there are people who may be a serious disruption to the class in the hallways, people who leave a mess in the hallways, et cetera. although i may be innocent, they may not.

as much as i don't like it, it sometimes becomes necessary for an entire group to be punished if things get out of hand rather than the induviduals causing all the trouble. it's easier to persecute a whole group in certain situations than just a few.

going back to school uniforms, if the school had a visible reason for it, i'd consider it. i wouldn't like it, but if the district said their reasons for making us wear certain things i'd like to know why. was there a problem? any similar problems? is this just to see if it will be like another school who instituted uniforms and got higher scores? if the school's doing fine without uniforms, i might take a stand against it. but if it seems to have a need for them, i might go along with it.

(but still wear my funky socks and shoes of course. ^_^)

as someone said way back in this thread, in a business environment, you'll have to dress appropriately. why is there no protest on wall street saying, "why can't we wear whatever the hell we want"? it affects their reputation as well as the company's. if they don't look good, well, that kind of sucks for them. it moves onto the company too.

clothes project who you are, uniforms/dress codes can help in that way.

before i go off topic... i'm done.

[squealpiggy]

The school's reputation is also affected by the attire of their students. And it's good practise for when you are working too.

My missus is a teacher (primary level) and she had trouble at a new school with some 14-15 year olds, I forget which grade that is, like there were a few of them acting up. It's a bad age that 13-16 yeard old bracket, it's the age of rebelliousness. She's new and she's fairly young so they were trying to make her uncomfortable in her job. So she did what she had to do, and kept the whole class back. It got to the point where if one kid acted up she kept everyone back. If everyone suffers from one kid acting up the whole peer suport for their antics element is removed, the classmates resent them for their little tricks and the poor behaviour stops.

Unfair but effective.

[Fruiterian]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Unfair but effective.

exactly.

[Seraph]

I understand the point in having a Uniform.

But surely its not because people cant afford name brand clothes, its because the people in the school are particularly ignorant and horrible to them.

People in schools would do fine wearing their own clothes, if the people IN the school would just not pick on the ones that are less fortunate. But sadly, this will never be the case.. there are brats and mean kids in school, and i guess you cant do anything about it - this is why there is Uniform.

Being American and all... and living in the UK for 3 years, ive experienced both. I lived in Florida up until the 7th grade, which is about year 8/9.

Everything was fine, nobody made fun of others about their clothes and schooldays went smoothly. In the UK (from what ive experienced) on the days we were allowed to wear our own clothes, everyone just got made fun of.. and it's just a mess.

Being in the 6th form now, which is like High School... we get to wear our own clothes... Or so they say..

We arent allowed to wear:
Jeans (fair enough - too casual)
Trainers (fair enough - too casual)
3/4 trousers (i dont wear them, but what the heck??)
T-shirts (what?!?!)
Round necked tops (what!!)
Any tops with pictures, writing or logos (Why?!)
Sandals (OK, a slight hazard for fires.. fair enough..)
No hoods (why?!)
No jackets (its COLD!)

They are just pathetic with what we can and cannot wear, the list goes on and on forever.. and at one point i asked my tutor if they just wanted us to come in nekkie, cause it sure as hell looked like they wanted us to! (But i got sent home, so dont try that :rolleyes: )

In some sense i agree with the Uniform.. but in others, its just plain stupid.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Seraph
I understand the point in having a Uniform.

But surely its not because people cant afford name brand clothes, its because the people in the school are particularly ignorant and horrible to them.

People in schools would do fine wearing their own clothes, if the people IN the school would just not pick on the ones that are less fortunate. But sadly, this will never be the case.. there are brats and mean kids in school, and i guess you cant do anything about it - this is why there is Uniform.

Being American and all... and living in the UK for 3 years, ive experienced both. I lived in Florida up until the 7th grade, which is about year 8/9.

Everything was fine, nobody made fun of others about their clothes and schooldays went smoothly. In the UK (from what ive experienced) on the days we were allowed to wear our own clothes, everyone just got made fun of.. and it's just a mess.

Being in the 6th form now, which is like High School... we get to wear our own clothes... Or so they say..

We arent allowed to wear:
Jeans (fair enough - too casual)
Trainers (fair enough - too casual)
3/4 trousers (i dont wear them, but what the heck??)
T-shirts (what?!?!)
Round necked tops (what!!)
Any tops with pictures, writing or logos (Why?!)
Sandals (OK, a slight hazard for fires.. fair enough..)
No hoods (why?!)
No jackets (its COLD!)

They are just pathetic with what we can and cannot wear, the list goes on and on forever.. and at one point i asked my tutor if they just wanted us to come in nekkie, cause it sure as hell looked like they wanted us to! (But i got sent home, so dont try that :rolleyes: )

In some sense i agree with the Uniform.. but in others, its just plain stupid.

In that situation why don't they just tell you to wear business dress and have done with it?

[Pod]

Originally posted by Seraph

We arent allowed to wear:
Jeans (fair enough - too casual)
Trainers (fair enough - too casual)
3/4 trousers (i dont wear them, but what the heck??)
T-shirts (what?!?!)
Round necked tops (what!!)
Any tops with pictures, writing or logos (Why?!)
Sandals (OK, a slight hazard for fires.. fair enough..)
No hoods (why?!)
No jackets (its COLD!)



im glad i go to a dedicatory college where they, quite frankly, dont give a toss

[Jenni_me]

Well in the uk they make you wear a uniform..

The only point i see in a uniform is for security reasons so that the school knows who you are, but why not use id cards instead of having some really dumb rules? In out school they basically try to get us looking like clones. All black trousers, all white shirts, all ties, all black shoes. and the list of what we cant wear is endless...

No trainers
No jeans
No denim jackets (in fact no denim of any kind at all)
No Jewelry
No logos
No footbal tops
No crop trousers
No shorts
No t-shirts
No long coats?!?
No caps
Theres more but i dont have all year to tell u it...

It was only a few years ago that girls would get into trouble for wearing trousers 'cos they weren't "ladylike".
And to top it all off they were thinking about bringing in compulsary school blazers! Are they trying to get us beaten up while walking home?!? really?!?

[Dr-Electro]

The kids who go to the school where I work are nearly unrestricted when it comes to dress code. Nudity is frowned upon. Showing your underwear is a no-no. No hats or head covers of any kind in the house. Beyond that, it's a free-for-all.

Everybody picks on everybody else for whatever they can dream up. One kid was picking on my for having a bald spot and for having so much white in my beard. Another kid told him to shut up and leave "Old Mr. ______ alone." When asked why, the kid who was "defending" me said, "Because he can drown you in dandruff."

I laughed at both of them and walked away like nothing happened. They were both struck dumb.:D Youth and meanness are no match for experience and treachery.:twisted:

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Jenni_me
Well in the uk they make you wear a uniform..

The only point i see in a uniform is for security reasons so that the school knows who you are, but why not use id cards instead of having some really dumb rules? In out school they basically try to get us looking like clones. All black trousers, all white shirts, all ties, all black shoes. and the list of what we cant wear is endless...

No trainers
No jeans
No denim jackets (in fact no denim of any kind at all)
No Jewelry
No logos
No footbal tops
No crop trousers
No shorts
No t-shirts
No long coats?!?
No caps
Theres more but i dont have all year to tell u it...

It was only a few years ago that girls would get into trouble for wearing trousers 'cos they weren't "ladylike".
And to top it all off they were thinking about bringing in compulsary school blazers! Are they trying to get us beaten up while walking home?!? really?!?

It's quite funny that you actually think that this is an issue. When you leave school the uniform thing is completely unimportant. As for making you look like clones, yes that is one reason for it. If every looks the same then they can all be treated the same. But if you look at this whole thing sensibly you have to wear your uniform between 9am and 3.30pm. So that's 6.5 hours per day, five days a week. That's 32.5 hours a week. There are 168 hours in a week. You see how little you have to wear your uniform? Jeezz....

[Fruiterian]

I wear hats quite a bit. My parents don't like it, but it's better than showing my stomach 24/7... I can see the reason for it though. I like the rules allowing me to wear hats in the hallways/class unless when I'm in class and a teacher says otherwise, but I can definitely see why a no-hats rule could be inforced.

No jewelry? Why is that such a problem? Unless it includes watches. That's a bit of a pain, considering my school doesn't have a bell system.

And you don't want IDs. That's worse in my eyes. Wearing them around your neck can make you feel like a prisoner sometimes. It's not pleasant. I wear mine on my belt, and the only reason I do so is because I keep my keys with them. Otherwise I would do away with it because the rule is poorly enforced.

Should get used to it though... considering many business environments require them.

I have 8 1/2 hours in school a day though. It sucks. The day is too long, considering I don't get home 'till 5:15 and I have to leave at like, 7... school starts at 8, ends at 4:30. Takes about 1/2 an hour to get there.

Denim here is a staple of a wardrobe, so they'd have trouble banning jeans. Even then I don't mind. I'll just get a collection of green and khaki pants. I already have a few pairs in addition to my collection of jeans.

My only objection to school uniforms, as I've said previously, if there's no reason for them. People where whatever they want in some environments and no one really cares. But if it's full of immature teenagers poking fun of other's clothes, or if the clothes are truly inappropriate for whatever level the kids are in, those are reasons for uniforms.

As for those rules that I mentioned earlier, they STILL aren't enforced, even though there were all these huge meetings about it. My school's administration is full of idiots.

[Dr-Electro]

Now, wait a minute. ONLY idiots are allowed to be in school administration. If you have an IQ greater than 40, you are not allowed to run a school.

I agree that the ID system is poorly enforced everywhere. Yes, you are required to wear them by many employers, but you also get paid for wearing them. That makes a tiny bit of difference.

The IDs are not intended to make you feel like prisoners. They were originally intended to make you feel safer. We honestly do everything we can to protect our kids from harm. If we miss the mark, tell somebody about it. If nothing happens, chalk it up to experience. I think that you will look back on the school ID issue later in life and think it was too trivial to have been bothered about it.

[eleanor]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro
[B]One kid was picking on my for having a bald spot and for having so much white in my beard.
Hahaha, I want to see that kid in fifty years' time!

[Ogilvy]

Originally posted by pie chicken
school uniform is good in some ways, its better than home clothes cos then u dont get the p**s ripped out of you if you wear "uncool clothes"

People aren't shallow enough to start fights with people because they wear different clothes. That's merely a myth used to support dress codes. Fights are usually started for some other incredibly retarded reason, but never have I heard of anybody intimidating a fellow student because of how he/she dresses. I just don't think that happens. At least, not in my experience.

[Fruiterian]

In rich-kid Country, USA it does. I haven't noticed it personally, simply because of my science magneticism but there are quite a few people who taut their riches in the forms of handbags and clothes. I was bothered a bit over the way I dressed in middle school.

I dress similarly now. No one really cares. :)

[squealpiggy]

People aren't shallow enough to start fights with people because they wear different clothes. That's merely a myth used to support dress codes. Fights are usually started for some other incredibly retarded reason, but never have I heard of anybody intimidating a fellow student because of how he/she dresses. I just don't think that happens. At least, not in my experience.

Are you sure this comment doesn't belong in the drugs thread!? High school kids don't care how you dress?! On what planet is that exactly?!

[Ogilvy]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Are you sure this comment doesn't belong in the drugs thread!? High school kids don't care how you dress?! On what planet is that exactly?!

All I know is that in the little high school in West Virginia that I attend, no fights are ever started because of how a student chooses to dress.

[squealpiggy]

It doesn't start fights, but it does cause tension which leads up to fights being started.

[eleanor]

Originally posted by Ogilvy
All I know is that in the little high school in West Virginia that I attend, no fights are ever started because of how a student chooses to dress.
Aha. Come to the UK. I will show you scallies.

[squealpiggy]

Starting fights is justified if it is goths in hats, due to saving of crows!

[Wally]

I dressed like a mutant.. a hawaian, like some.. fancy dude, and like a hippy.. people liked me, people loved me, but I don't visit parties anymore.... they broke my heart:(

[Death]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
People should be punished for wearing tshirts of any kind. School isn't for expressing yourself. That's what college is for. School is for learning. I have no children but I pay taxes which go towards teaching you kids things you need to learn. Express your self in your own time like everyone that works has to!

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. I say this in general but if you are being sarcastic please do not take my comments personally.

Your post, made my skin crawl. The most striking phrase was your belief that 'School isn't for expressing yourself'. This seems to me as very extreme and almost agenda driven. I had images of fundamentalists who's religious convictions, truthfull or not, are driving them to make decisions which should be up to powers beyond us and not them. it is a similar drive that wills them to impose a certain degree of learning on children.

The idea that children should not be free to express themselves, i am sorry, comes across as mildly insane and suggests yet sinister things. Because children are young and usually possess a degree of ignorance which is understanding considering how much they have or have not experienced of the world around them. to supress something even as simple as a T-shirt which conveys a message that they want heard, and by now I hope you understand I do not mean pre-schoolers. I hope you are not suggesting that 16 year olds who must also adheer to these dress codes you support do not hold political views. the majority of people in my politics class are 16 and have a broader knowledge of the current political climate than I do. If they so desire to wear an anti-war T-shirt then I certainly would not oppose it if they were my responsibility.

In my opinion they are just exercising a natural desire and more imporantly a natural right to express ones self. when you wish to supress this because of self interests or it conflicts with your own views then I hold no sympathy with you because you should not have the right to supress these feelings. By now that my arguament is riddled with holes: 'What if that child is a nazi? would you let him wear a swastica to school?' No I would not because, one has only to look back at history to see how tolerant the nazi party was with minorities. Perhaps by wearing that T-shirt you are inciting fear and with an anti war T-shirt you are conveying peace which I honestly hope is something you all agree is a good thing to promote.

I think it should be up to the person in charge to make the call though. I do not belive that there should be a strict code that enforces unnecesary rules, but I do belive there should be someone in charge, they are appointed because they are good for the job and should know what they are doing. The second benefit is that he can react accordingly and If you desire to make changes then it should be easier than if you were under a more rigid system.

But back to the original point I whole heartedly disagree with the idea that children up to teenagers cannot express themselves because they are fully capable and should be able to exercise that freedom not forced to adheer to a system which they may disagree with and to supress their will to react, brings to mind indoctrination and almost totalitarian ideals.

[squealpiggy]

'School isn't for expressing yourself'

It isn't, it's for learning things that one needs to live.

I had images of fundamentalists who's religious convictions, truthfull or not, are driving them to make decisions which should be up to powers beyond us and not them. it is a similar drive that wills them to impose a certain degree of learning on children.


So education is and example of imposing will on a child? Funny that, I always considered education to be a basic right. I wonder what the opinion of a child who was denied education would be.

The idea that children should not be free to express themselves, i am sorry, comes across as mildly insane and suggests yet sinister things.

I didn't say that children should not express themselves, I said that they shouldn't be free to express themselves in school. They can do as they like outside school. And of course I am referring to the degree of self expression that you actually can get from a style of dress which let's be honest says more about which marketing strategy you respond to than how you feel about yourself.

I hope you are not suggesting that 16 year olds who must also adheer to these dress codes you support do not hold political views.

Please point out at what point I suggested this and I will gladly apologise and delete it from my comments.

the majority of people in my politics class are 16 and have a broader knowledge of the current political climate than I do. If they so desire to wear an anti-war T-shirt then I certainly would not oppose it if they were my responsibility.


If they really knew a lot about politics they wouldn't feel the need to resort to crass sloganeering and t-shirts.

In my opinion they are just exercising a natural desire and more imporantly a natural right to express ones self.

If I expressed my right to self expression in work then I would get fired. Knowing when and where it is appropriate to express yourself is an important lesson to learn.

'What if that child is a nazi? would you let him wear a swastica to school?' No I would not because, one has only to look back at history to see how tolerant the nazi party was with minorities.

I hadn't considered this but thanks for bringing it up. So what you are saying is that it's OK for a child to express themselves as long as you agree with them? If not nazis how about the Anti Nazi League? How about the BNP? They're a legitimate political party. How about an Al Qeida tshirt? How about if a kid wears a pro war tshirt? What if another kid complains? You ban a pro war tshirt. So that kid complains about anti war tshirts...

I do not belive that there should be a strict code that enforces unnecesary rules, but I do belive there should be someone in charge, they are appointed because they are good for the job and should know what they are doing.

One thing that people in charge like to do is to impose dress codes. Because they make life easier for the administration, for the staff, for the teachers and ultimately for the kids. How would you break up a fight that was started because someone wore an anti-war tshirt and another kid's dad had just been brought home from that war in a bag?

But back to the original point I whole heartedly disagree with the idea that children up to teenagers cannot express themselves because they are fully capable and should be able to exercise that freedom not forced to adheer to a system which they may disagree with and to supress their will to react, brings to mind indoctrination and almost totalitarian ideals.

Indoctrination? Totalitarianism? Please look up those words before ever mentioning them again in a debate about a schoolkid's right to wear tshirts.

The main points I am trying to make are:

1) Adults do not have a green light to express themselves at all times, why should children?

2) You start out trying to respect everyone's view but end up drawing the line somewhere; you can either have free speech or not have it, you can't pick and choose which bits of free speech you should have.

3)Kids are free to express themselves in their free time. School is not their free time, it is time paid for by the taxpayer.

4) And this is really important: The way you dress is a really REALLY crap way of trying to express yourself. Trying to pretend otherwise is lying to yourself. If you have something valid to say then SAY it! If it is valuable then it won't look good printed on a tshirt.

[Dr-Electro]

Okay, forget the dress codes. Everybody show up for school Monday naked. That will teach us all a lesson!

(Incidentally, I have the day off Monday. :p )

[Wise One]

To think that we should shed our rights at the gates of school is absurd and highly against what the Framers of our Constitution intended.

Period. End of Story. What they are doing in some aspects is clearly wrong, especially the suspension of the kids who expressed their opinions on the war.

But kids aren't taken seriously, so theres not much we can do about it. If it were adults in this situation, it'd all be PROTEST PROTEST, MORE FREEDOM LESS POOPHEADS. For us however, it's just "tough".

THAT'S what really ticks me off. If kids were taken at bit more seriously, a LOT of depression, murder, run-aways, and unwanted children problems would vanish.

A poll on Tech Tv asked people what they thought caused most violence and such problems nowadays. Heres the results.

Video games, Tv, Movies, etc.------------ 8%
Availability of weapons-------------------- 11%
Irresponsible parents---------------------- 81%

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Wise One
To think that we should shed our rights at the gates of school is absurd and highly against what the Framers of our Constitution intended.

Period. End of Story. What they are doing in some aspects is clearly wrong, especially the suspension of the kids who expressed their opinions on the war.

But kids aren't taken seriously, so theres not much we can do about it. If it were adults in this situation, it'd all be PROTEST PROTEST, MORE FREEDOM LESS POOPHEADS. For us however, it's just "tough".

THAT'S what really ticks me off. If kids were taken at bit more seriously, a LOT of depression, murder, run-aways, and unwanted children problems would vanish.

A poll on Tech Tv asked people what they thought caused most violence and such problems nowadays. Heres the results.

Video games, Tv, Movies, etc.------------ 8%
Availability of weapons-------------------- 11%
Irresponsible parents---------------------- 81%

When the First Amendment to the Bill of Rights was written I doubt they were really thinking "And one day a kid will be able to claim this right to enable them to wear an "I AM THE GOD OF FUCK" t-shirt in Sunday School. Joking aside what schools have to consider is not only the rights of people who want to express their freedom of speech, but also the rights of those who do not want to be subjected to the freedom of speech of others. You see the problem with taking kids seriously is that they are kids. They find it way too easy to learn about their rights, but what you don't learn until later is that with rights come responsibility. You have freedom of expression, well express yourself. But don't do it to the detriment of those around you. Say you are in school and trying to learn and suddenly there is massive disruption caused by someone's ideological tshirt slogan. Everything stops while the disruption is handled. Noone learns.

That's the trouble with kids (and lots of adults, I have to say). They are impressionable. They are easily led by propaganda, they tend to see the world in black and white because it takes experience to see it any other way. No disrespect to kids but they haven't had time to make the same mistakes that adults have that are the steps to learning and maturing.

[Wise One]

I understand that with freedom comes responsibility; that's been pounded into my head for about 4 grades now :p .

What I'm trying to say is, that, kids' rights are abused because they're kids, and can't defend them well.

Look at the Tinker case,(some kids started wearing armbands to protest against America joining in on the Vietnam war, were suspended, and, had it not been for their parents taking the case to the Supreme Court, it would have stayed that way) and the case with the Nazi parade in Skokie. The people eventually got the rights they deserved, but, it took time, effort, and the Supreme Court actually having some intelligence about peoples' rights. However unliked, disturbing, or even hateful someones views may be, they have the right to express them peacefully. As long as it hasn't conflicted with other peoples' rights(like what you said about the t-shirt, I'm not saying that they should have the right to do THAT, because it interferes with the students' rights to learn). I'm simply saying, public school systems have a history of abusing the rights of students, and are STILL doing it.
And, I'm sorry, I haven't made my point clear enough on alot of issues(My bad :( ) So I have had to re-explain my pint many-a-time. I basically agree with you on most points, but I'm basically saying, as I have said before, what they're doing is WRONG.

Also, I am sorry about the horribly immature rant that was my first post, I was just VERY angry after reading about the 2 kids who were suspended for expressing their VIEWS .

Anyway, thank you all for a very entertaining debate.
Continue if you wish :D

[squealpiggy]

The trouble with students "expressing their views" is that invariably to do so interferes with other student's freedom. That's why it is banned in school. Now if some kids went to a protest on their own time and the school found out and suspended them then I would see that as an outrage. But if they do it in school then I don't see a problem with suspending them.

[leeroy]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
If they really knew a lot about politics they wouldn't feel the need to resort to crass sloganeering and t-shirts.

we dont we wear suits like civilised men and express our views through debate, i also agree that what you wear is a stupid way to express yourself, not only does wearing a uniform help you concentrate e.g. not checkin out the ladys but it also beats having to find different shit to wear everyday.

uniforms are only a good thing and the great thing is when you get home you cant take it off and sit in naked glory

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by leeroy
we dont we wear suits like civilised men and express our views through debate, i also agree that what you wear is a stupid way to express yourself, not only does wearing a uniform help you concentrate e.g. not checkin out the ladys but it also beats having to find different shit to wear everyday.

uniforms are only a good thing and the great thing is when you get home you cant take it off and sit in naked glory

You never check out a lady in uniform?!

[Dr-Electro]

After all, it's my home. As long as I keep the blinds drawn and the door locked, I should be just fine. If I want to cross-dress and flog myself with kitchen utensils at home, so be it. Same for everyone else. Your privacy in your own home should be nobody else's business whatsoever. That could bring up a whole differrent issue, though.

I agree that irresponsible parenting contributes to many problematic social issues. On the other side of that same coin you have parents who get everything exactly right with all but one child. That one child is treated exactly the same as the rest, but still rebels against authority to the point of actually being convicted of crimes and sent to prison. If the parents succeeded with four out of five children, what about number five? Does the horrendous behavior of the one make the parents failures?

I know many parents who have survived this experience. I am one of them. I was raised to believe that my responsibilities came first. Rights were granted after I met those responsibilities successfully. My oldest child took the lesson perfectly and never caused any trouble whatsoever. Not to say he never had to defend himself against trouble that came looking for him, but everybody has to experience that side of life. It didn't change his basic nature.

The youngest was the exact opposite. No matter what we tried to teach her, no matter what methods we used, starting with positive discipline and progressing all the way through to tough love and the "Scared Straight" program, she did all the wrong things. She grew up in spite of herself, but again that's another story I have covered elsewhere.

The point of that is simply that on occasion the best parents wind up with one of the worst children. It is just not in some people's nature to accept the lessons that home and society attempt to teach.

I still say, even though less than one percent seems to hear, that responsibility comes first. Our constitutional rights are not based on irresponsible anarchy. If every person in America acted out every whim and foible, this country would have landed in the dumpster long ago.

The adults of this country have a responsibility to the children of this country. The duty befalls us of having to try to teach undisciplined little wild monkeys to act like decent, responsible human beings. We are supposed to teach our children and everybody else's children, too. It is not our responsibility to sit back and watch the youth and children of America destroy society by behaving like monsters.

In addition, the officials of our schools are charged with taking care of other people's children! That charge includes insuring that those children don't infringe on other people's rights as well. It is a very difficult balancing act. If we are unable to please you in your quest for personal freedom over everyboey else's, we are sorry. We can't allow everybody to do whatever the please all the time. It is against the law. Imagine what your parents would think if we just stood back and let the other students beat you to death in the name of freedom of expression.

Have a heart and try to see the adult's side of the issue and not just your own. If they get it wrong on occasion, be as forgiving of their transgressions as they are of yours. You don't get executed for every tiny mistake, do you?

If the adults err on the side of good, that's one thing. But, if they go too far, that's another matter altogether. If the parents and the community step in to correct a situation like the one you described, then they, too are acting responsibly. Even responsibilities conflict at times. Everybody is capable of bad judgment at times because we are all equally human. Try to remember that the next time you get all bent out of shape because your teacher won't allow you to break the rules selfishly.

[leeroy]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
You never check out a lady in uniform?!

crap ive been foiled

hey dr-e im all for sitting at home naked and i think youve made an excelent point

[Dr-Electro]

*lounges naked in front of computer*

Thanks, Leeroy!

[Wise One]

Thank you doctor!!

You've basically summarized EVERYTHING I've been trying to say, except I'm just putting in that I think they're overdoing it in some aspects.

Theres one other thing though, the dudes who run our school can be real shathats sometimes. A kid in my math class popped his knuckles ONCE, he wasn't trying to be disturbing or anything. Just a quick hand-over-hand finger-stretch crack.
He got sent to the office for 2 days of SDC.
That's just stupid.

There's alot of other situations like this where it seems that our principle, vice-principal, etc. seems to forget why you punish someone.

Oh well, Do