Avril Lavigne

[squealpiggy]

I just know that this would turn into a debate so I've posted it here to save time.

I'm listening to the Avril album, Let Go, and I just wanted to say that I think she's great! Why do so many people hate her?

[MU||37]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Why do so many people hate her?

Because her music sucks.

[Rhaeven]

The basis of the music is the fact that skate punk is growing popular. Remember Bowling For Soup? Those two singles they did made skate punk popular.

Avril isn't a skate punk, not that it makes a difference, but she makes out that she's hardcore and she's not.

I dislike the music because it is very simplistic and the lyrics are childish, and based on values that the recording company know will appeal to little 14 year old hoodie-brigadiers.

'He was a skater boy, she said see ya later boy, he wasn't good enough for her.' All she's doing here is playing off trendies against skaters. She knows that 'all' 'skaters' 'hate' 'trendies' (yes, every part of that sentance deserved quotation marks) and therefore she (*snicker*) 'writes' a song about how skaters rock and trendies suck.

[Magpie]

le sigh.

how amny times do i type this on this board?

1) there will always be people who hate stuff that sells well to prove how non-comformist and individual they are.

2) she is marketed as punk, she herself knows she does pop and has complained about it alot. As she listens to real punk and her band mates were members of prominent LA punk outfits.

3) some people just don't like simple love songs or pop.

4) part of the skate-punk "movemnt" she is supposedly a member of is offending real skaters, yes ironicaly most of the people annoying skaters are the mini-moshers noted in 1).

my 2 cents, with some added facts.

[squealpiggy]

I remember the same skate punk argument being had about NOFX back in the day! Bowlong for soup didn't make skate-punk popular. IF it was any group it was Blink 182 but really it's a gradual thing started really by Nirvana who made it cool to be alternative and carried on through Greenday etc.

About the lyrics: They're childish hoodie brigade lyrics... but she is a hoodie brigade child! I can't see a problem with the subject of her lyrics reflecting her true feeling. I don't think that the record company had much of a hand in the lyrics... The fact that she did them is a selling point. I really think that Avril is genuine in that she is into punk, she thinks skaters are hot (but it's a bit wet that she doesn't actually skate), she sees herself as a bit of a rebel...BUT... she's a Christian and makes no secret of that, she's friends with her mom and isn't ashamed. I think she's alright. Bands that are really cynically manufactured from what I can tell are bands like Linkin Park (they're called "Linkin Park" because the web domain for "Lincoln Park" was taken, they played their first show at a 2000 seater, they're too good looking to do metal, their tunes are chart friendly but they are marketed as metal - Avril is sold to a pop market, it's fairly transparent) Good Charlotte, Spineshank and all the numerous nu metal crapolas.

I think Avril's music is pleasant and I just find it bizarre that people hate her so much. And I bet most of the boys fancy her!

[cadex]

one of the only things I have against avril is that because of her songs skaters get called sk8r bois as they roll past people now.

but its just another name we have to put up with, along with grunger, mosher, tony hawks and greb.


I think that most people who have a problem with avril are the metalers who think that she is making rock pop and giving them a bad name.

its just the same as us hip hoppers complaining about p-diddy, ja-rule and 50 cent really.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by cadex
one of the only things I have against avril is that because of her songs skaters get called sk8r bois as they roll past people now.

but its just another name we have to put up with, along with grunger, mosher, tony hawks and greb.


I think that most people who have a problem with avril are the metalers who think that she is making rock pop and giving them a bad name.

its just the same as us hip hoppers complaining about p-diddy, ja-rule and 50 cent really.

Sk8r bois is surely better than Wood Pushers, Plank Wankers and my favourite, gays on trays which is one thing that was yelled at me by a rollerblader at a skatepark.

[donkey_pie]

'sk8er boi' and 'complicated' make me feel like burning needles are being driven through my eyeballs. however, i quite like the rest of it.
Many artists voices are manafactured, I don't like dido when she's interviewed but she is one of my favourite artists for the MUSIC. i just try to forget all else and listen.:p

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by donkey_pie
'sk8er boi' and 'complicated' make me feel like burning needles are being driven through my eyeballs. however, i quite like the rest of it.
Many artists voices are manafactured, I don't like dido when she's interviewed but she is one of my favourite artists for the MUSIC. i just try to forget all else and listen.:p

But after 8 million radio plays of Dido's latest "hit" does it not drive you wild with insane boredom!? She's bland! In a way Avril is also bland but they are difference flavours of bland. Dido is like... beige carpet... Avril is laminate Flooring.

[Wahoo]

linkin park are not manufactured god dammit, they have been several different band names b4 now and have been around for quite a bit, they just introduced chester and someone else, but before that they were hybrid theory (hense the title of the first album), the song high voltage was origionally done by the group hybrid theory who are now linkin park! SEE, NOT MANUFACTURED!

they were also someone else b4 hybrid theory, but i can't remember name

My sis has seen them lie several times, they are good.

[sjaak]

Originally posted by Wahoo
My sis has seen them lie several times, they are good.

was probably supposed to be "live", going for typo-of-the-year award :D

anyway, avril is just cute :rolleyes: and some of her songs are pretty nice to listen to, if you don't hear them too often, which is bound to happen if it's as commercial as it is..that's just my reason for not liking mainstream music: I hear it so often it just gets boring after a while!

[squealpiggy]

She's mostly good looking but has an occasional disturbing habit of looking too much like Axl Rose

http://i.ivillage.com/womn/music/avrilbig.jpg

[leper]

One word, SHIT. if u b lookin for a decent album u should buy "Generation Terrorists" by the Manic Street Preachers.:weebl:

[Sorcha]

Hmmm... good topic!

I don't particularly like Avril, simply because she is everything she tries not to be. Example, she doesn't wanna be a role model or idol to chicks like Britney or Christina, but look what's happened! It's like freakin' clones are walking around everywhere. She says she's not a try hard, but I mean, just look at her! With that whole rock punk chick thing that is so cliche now because of her! It makes me wanna puke. I don't like her image because she's just as manufactured as any other pop star.

Her music on the other hand, I don't mind, as long as Avril isn't the one singing it. She has no singing talent what-so-ever. Some of her songs are good and they have good messages in them but her voice... ergh! And I don't really like the music, if they changed the music a bit to make it more rock and less pop (it's pretty much pop anyway) it would be a little bit more appealing.

Another thing that really ticks me off is the fact that her 'band' never gets a mention in anything. She's 'sposed to be the lead singer of a hardcore rock punk band but her album is called Avril Lavigne Let go not her band's name! How whacked.

Anyway, just thought I'd have a bit more discriptive argument as to why she's not as good as some people say because everyone else here has just said "she sucks cos she sucks" instead of backing that statement up.

[squealpiggy]

I don't particularly like Avril, simply because she is everything she tries not to be. Example, she doesn't wanna be a role model or idol to chicks like Britney or Christina, but look what's happened! It's like freakin' clones are walking around everywhere. She says she's not a try hard, but I mean, just look at her! With that whole rock punk chick thing that is so cliche now because of her! It makes me wanna puke. I don't like her image because she's just as manufactured as any other pop star.

The thing is she doesn't come across as manufactured. She buys her clothes from Hot Topic, just like her fans do. And she might not want loads of clones walking round but the people that hate her the most are the clones... Familiarity breeds contempt obviously. She's no more manufactured than anyone else, everyone who is successful sells an image of some description. People don't buy into the person they buy into the star.

Her music on the other hand, I don't mind, as long as Avril isn't the one singing it. She has no singing talent what-so-ever. Some of her songs are good and they have good messages in them but her voice... ergh! And I don't really like the music, if they changed the music a bit to make it more rock and less pop (it's pretty much pop anyway) it would be a little bit more appealing.

But if they changed it to make it more rockthen they would be manufacturing the music to appeal to a certain audience! I thought you weren't down with that!

[/quote]Another thing that really ticks me off is the fact that her 'band' never gets a mention in anything. She's 'sposed to be the lead singer of a hardcore rock punk band but her album is called Avril Lavigne Let go not her band's name! How whacked.[/quote]

She's not the singer of a band, she's a solo artist with a backing band.

Anyway, just thought I'd have a bit more discriptive argument as to why she's not as good as some people say because everyone else here has just said "she sucks cos she sucks" instead of backing that statement up.

This is true!

Also

One word, SHIT. if u b lookin for a decent album u should buy "Generation Terrorists" by the Manic Street Preachers.

Decent album, better than Gold Against the Soul but not in the same league as The Holy Bible. But I don't know why you think that the Manic Sheep Treaters are any more valid than Avril, or why they are even comparable. MSP are indie rock whereas Avril is pop.

[felixdahousecat]

Since Avril's 1st single came out i've noticed that all the "alternative" clothes shops have started selling stripy socks with the toes cut off for wearing over your arm. I don't understand the point of wearing 1, is it some kind of thermal arm snood?

[squealpiggy]

Yes! A thermal arm snood indeed!

I like Avril, I never said that she didn't look silly!

[PoofBird]

I am an avid lover of all good music, I listen to proper hiphop (cadex stylee ;) ) some good punk, and the best in indie pop and rock. I also enjoy good classical music and jazz.
I go for quality.

Avril's songs are quality. I think anyone who loves music should be able to spot quality, even if the style does not appeal to you. I don't really like metal, but I can spot a good metal band when I hear one.
My greatest love in music goes to a good melody, so I so listen to metal like Opeth, which has more melody than the average metal.

Now why do people hate Avril so much?

Yes she is marketed pop? That is something to dislike, but all your most of your big favourite bands are marketed to great extend as well, and sign with big labels...

The problem is that people confuse "musical genre" with "subculture"...

Ok, this or that artist doesn't fit in you subcultural niche called punk, metal or hiphop... doesn't always mean that the it doesn't fit the musical genre.

I don't care for subcultures, and Avril surely isn't threatening mine in any way. I listen to her music and I hear very well written songs, a good singing voice, a nice backing band and excellent producers.
That's that, it's good music. You still don't have to like it, music has many variables to appeal to people. I like melody, and I like Avril.
Just don't you don't like her because she sucks, period. It's a bit silly at best.

I agree with Cadex there is much better hiphop around than most of what you hear on the charts. But the fact that Eminem and 50 ct don't appeal to the subculture hiphop but to the mainstream, doesn't make the music any less hiphop.
We don't want to invent new musical genres for anything that doesn't go well with the subcultural avant garde.
And still, I enjoy eminem a lot. His flow, lyrics and arrangements are very melodic and give me something that a lot of other hiphop cannot...

I never understood today's use of the word pop.
pop is popular music, which was used to describe all forms of popular music of all genres as a whole.
On a smaller scale, it's still used a lot to describe song structure with a real verse chorus structure and strong melody and harmony.
There are many alternative and indie bands I would consider pop, like Belle & Sebastian, Weezer and Fountains of Wayne.
And there are many songs in the charts, though called marketed pop by people protecting their subcultural identities, I'd still call hiphop or punk or whatever.

my 50 cents

[Dude]

eh, shes got a nice body though.

[sjaak]

Originally posted by PoofBird
There are many alternative and indie bands I would consider pop, like Belle & Sebastian, Weezer and Fountains of Wayne.

's a bit off-topic, but I must remark here that that dude from Weezer looks extreeeeeeeeemely cute. he's just too cudly! and they make good music too :)

[LiveOLP]

Everyone hates her because she thinks shes a punk but shes about as punk as nsync. she the worlds biggest fvcking poser.

[donkey_pie]

Originally posted by LiveOLP
Everyone hates her because she thinks shes a punk but shes about as punk as nsync. she the worlds biggest fvcking poser.

But it has just been made quite clear that not everyone dislikes her.... just pointing it out... sorry :(

*enjoys pointing out mistakes really, yet has made many of her own, probablys in this post*

[LiveOLP]

sry, ur right, not everyone, but everyone who does hate her

[Weeman]

I just don't happen to like her music.

[donkey_pie]

I think that a lot of the trouble is the way that music is classified and genres are so narrow... some music just cannot be classified easily, but it doesn't mean it isn't good in its own right.

[Ked]

I'm agreed with Pinkerbell there. It doesn't matter who is a 'poser' and who is not. The music really counts in my opinion. I haven't really listened to Avril Lavigne, I only hear her songs they have on MTV, which tends to be Sk8er Boi.

My friend told me though that her image was a bit oppressed by her record label, and that she does have good potential. If she made her own record label, you well could be seeing a lot of good stuff from her.

[squealpiggy]

Everyone hates her because she thinks shes a punk but shes about as punk as nsync. she the worlds biggest fvcking poser.



By poser I take it you mean that she's pretending to be something that she's not... So what is she pretending to be? A teenage girl who likes punk rock records, and who's job is being an astonishingly successful singer? What you think that to be re4l she should jack it in and work flipping burgers for McDonalds?

I've met some of the "real" punks from the 70s and you know what? They're all about prison tattoos, dole money and smelling of cider and wee. If this is you then fair enough. If not, then you're a poser.

And about Britney: She's average looking too. But she has a great stylist.

[flyingmonkey]

I honestly don't mind Avril herself. Just as I don't mind Christina Aguilera or whoever else. They wear what they like, they do what they like, and I don't have a problem with that. They're just doing what makes them happy. I'll be the first person to admit that Christina has an amazing voice. I don't care for most of her music but the girl can sing. Avril, on the other hand, can't. But that's just my opinion.

What I do have a problem with is the effect they have upon popular culture. Yes, I know, they never asked to be role models and they don't encourage people to dress/act like them. But like it or not they are role models to thousands of young girls all over the world. It sickens me to watch these little 11 yr. olds degrading themselves by wearing belly-baring tops and low cut jeans because they had seen Christina Aguliera wear them. Or even sadder, the other night I was talking to my neighbor. I commented on how she had better start eating more because she was all skin and bones. She just looked at me odd and said that she was almost there. I asked her what she meant. She told me that all she needed to do was lose 5 more pounds and then she would be as skinny as Avril Lavigne. She also asked me if I would show her how to put on dark eyeliner so she could really look like her hero. This girl is only 9 years old.

[squealpiggy]

The thing is there were role models when I was a kid too, but less kids were stupid about it than they are today. The whole skinny thing is weird. Why are the parents not instilling a sense of realism and self worth? The make up thing is normal, girls play with makeup. My four year old neice does, because kids emulate what they see. But the weight loss thing is frankly baffling.

Partly the influence is from the way the stars are aggressively marketed towards children. Soon enough there will be a backlash and we will see governments banning advertising to children. Until then we have to live with it.

[smiley clown]

I would rather have my little sister playing Avril Lavigne than Steps or S Club Juniors. But one of the music festivals she was singing live on on TV she sounded dreadful.

As for her image, the music video for complicated is v. funny.

[squealpiggy]

I like that when she sings "Lay back" the skater does a layback powerslide.

[Italian_Angel]

ok i don't really understand why people have to make such a big deal about her! its all "poser this" and "poser that" well all you're doing is sterotyping yourselves when saying "I'm punk and she's not!" i'm sick of it!

i mean it's just music! at least she isn't all sluttish and stuff like Britney and CHristina and now Madonna is trying to get all in with them (if you saw the MTv's VMA 2003 you would know what i'm tlaking about)

but seriously! it's just music and Avril's just trying to make a living over here!

[squealpiggy]

There's nothing wrong with being sluttish like Christina Aguilera! If Christina Aguilera wants to be sluttish then who are we to judge! And if she stopped being sluttish because of something said on this message board... I would never forgive you ;)

[almighty_bob]

Yer, wot eva u lot sed...

[almighty_bob]

having read all that has been said, I retract my previous comment, and in fact now agree with Pinkerbell. They are all trying to make a living... you cannot bitch at any of them!
Thank you P. (youve saved me time writing opinions, as you sum mine up beautifully, and have helped create a Poll... [its in the cheese bin if anyone wants to check it out])

[Seraph]

Originally posted by Pinkerbell
Yes, it is just music. And Christina and Britney and Madonna can do and wear whatever they like. They are just trying to make a living, too. I am not going to repeat what I said before, about Christina's voice and everything. All I want to know is, if you criticize them for how they look and what they do, what makes you ANY different from the people who criticize Avril???

I know they are all just trying to make a living..

But in order for someone to want to buy an album, and steer away from just downloading... they need to produce a good album, overall. Not just slap the hits in, and then sing some other songs that truly dont compare to the others :(

I admit, i did buy her album - as her hits were quite good, but i listened to it for a couple minutes and decided never to listen to it again.

I just wish she sang all her songs with the quality she is capable of. She could do better. :)

[LesserOf2Weebls]

Ya know, when Avril came to sing live, she was really offkey- if you listen to the songs enough, you can hear there's a fair bit of digital enhancement going on...

I reckon the best singers are the ones who sound just as good live as they do on CD. Not to knock Avril (ok sorry i guess I already have) but she could probably do with a bit of practise without the recording studio.

Of course she's gotta have the potential to have made it in the music industry in the first place, it just didn't sound too good on stage...

Hope someone can hear what I'm saying...

[Shiny_macShine]

there are good points about people saying christina and britney can be sluttish if they like because its there fault if it goes tits up. If u don't like her music so much then just ignore it, i mean your not gonna get her to stop, it works for me :)

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by LesserOf2Weebls
Ya know, when Avril came to sing live, she was really offkey- if you listen to the songs enough, you can hear there's a fair bit of digital enhancement going on...

I reckon the best singers are the ones who sound just as good live as they do on CD. Not to knock Avril (ok sorry i guess I already have) but she could probably do with a bit of practise without the recording studio.

Of course she's gotta have the potential to have made it in the music industry in the first place, it just didn't sound too good on stage...

Hope someone can hear what I'm saying...

No, singing ability is secondary to your ability to perform. You don't have to be able to sing if you can perform well.

[squealpiggy]

though I think there's a lot to be said for Christina Aguilera half naked. It's artistic!

[Smartie Popper!]

This whole christina's a big slut thing annoys me..

People seems to ignore the fact she's fully clothed in beautiful,fighter and genie in a bottle. They just concentrate on Dirrty and Can't hold us down.

stoopid society...

[Badger-Freak]

Her Music Suxx
And She Suxx!

Thats why...

[Italian_Angel]

yeah eactly! she dresses up in an bad way but i never said anything about Christina's singing. I think she sings really good and in "Can't Hold Us Down" i think she's really trying to prove a point there..heck i'm listening to it right now!

but i mean really! people these days will do anything to get their voice heard and most of it is just sterotyping the artists and stuff! i can't stand it!:mad:

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Badger-Freak
Her Music Suxx
And She Suxx!

Thats why...

Wow, insightful.

[Smartie Popper!]

Christina's very talented, but i dislike Can't hold us down..

You can hear it drowing in it's own pool of unoriginality...

Dosen't she look and sound scarily like LeAnne Rimmes in her new vidoe?

Scary..

[Cherokee Red]

First thing I noticed bout Avril, was her voice.
It's the same with other female singer songwriters like Michelle Branch and Gemma Hayes.
I would never have went out and bought their music if i didn't think they were worth it.
Not once did I think about image or appearance.
I tend to go by B-sides when buying music, if they've got good ones - I buy.

I hate it when people put others down just because of their image. To me, it doesn't matter.
My personal image has gotten me jumped twice and threatened a million times so far, but i don't change it coz why should i have to.
So why should artists have to? Just to please people and sell more records?
Not worth it.
If I ever get to release my EP, I can assure you my image won't be selling it. It'll be my music and lyrics (hopefully)

sorry bout the slight offtopicness there
[back on topic now]

[squealpiggy]

I think Avril's image is funny because as inoccuous as it seems, it has left a whole generation of alternateens feeling threatened!

[often Ndisguise]

i have heard one of her songs. i dont get what the big deal is. seriously. she isnt that earthshattering in either style or music as far as i am concerned

[Reddig]

I thought this thread had died.... damn.

Yeah... makes you wonder, doesn't it...

I mean, what's the big deal with Avril Lavigne, I have no idea too. She is neither controversial or exceptional in any way (or she is, but I haven't noticed it yet)...

Did she cut out her ribs in order to... you know what?
No?
Well maybe she revolutionised the music industry and changed rock history?
Wrong again?
Well then she must have written some heart gripping lyrics that made a few thousand people commit suicide while listnening to them backwards.
That also didn't take place?
Ok, last shot - she is reconed to be the most sexy singer in the world and she runs arround with only her knickes on her head during her concerts.
Naah?
Ha! I know! She has a lesbian girlfiend with which she sings in a duo. And they lick each other faces on half of the clips.
That ain't true either?
I give up then.

[squealpiggy]

She wears baggy trousers and tights on her arms, duh. This makes her hArDcOrE

[ZekeyLizard]

Listen to me all of you. If you must have some form of mainstream rock/punk music, then buy either Pink or buy No Doubt. There. The Fricken End.

[aToMiC x cHeRrY]

I don't hate the music.. Most of the songs on the album suck to me, but I like a few songs off of it, I listened to it a few times, only a few songs are good, but that's just my opinion.

[Cherokee Red]

Originally posted by Pinkerbell
I thought this thread had died.... damn.

Thoust be my fault.
In the words of the great and powerful monkey . . . . Sorry

[cadex]

Originally posted by ZekeyLizard
Listen to me all of you. If you must have some form of mainstream rock/punk music, then buy either Pink or buy No Doubt. There. The Fricken End.


http://www.arba13672.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/linda-what2.jpg

[squealpiggy]

I reckon Avril could have No Doubt in a fight but Pink could have them both at once...

[squealpiggy]

I cannot put into words how much I hate No Doubt. Pink is alright but she's a bit whiny in a few too many of her songs. Coming Up was completely awesome though. I think she should stop doing the scantily dressed thing, it doesn't suit her, she looked nice in the Coming Up video but in the latest one, that cowboy one she looks terrible!

But I really don't like No Doubt. Partly it's because I don't like ska.

Red Hot Chilli Pappers are the worst band ever. Avril is top!

And Avril would beat up Gwen because Avril plays hockey. Rawk!

[squealpiggy]

I'm not a Pink afficienado! I think it might have been released in the UK as (Coming up) Get the Party Started.

I still think that Avril could use hockey skeelz to beat up Gwen but Pink does Muay Thai or something similar so would win against Avril.

[smiley clown]

Pink does also have the edge with her crazy hairstyles.

[Smartie Popper!]

I REALLY dont like Avril. I like p!nk even less.

If you must listen to mainstream "rock/punk" I'd say go for No doubt or Evanesence.

[squealpiggy]

No doubt are abysmal, and Evanescence are pretty dull. Avril is playing a different type of music to either of those groups, the only thing they have in common is that it is a girl singing.

[Alomie]

why do people listen to a girl who acts like she made it all buy herself and we all know blatently that she is awful!
Anyone who likes her hasn't heard her sing live! (she dosn't sing in tune *ouch*)

I know every one has a right to there own opinion and all but man! she should be shot!

If your gonna listen to "rock" listen to the non commersialied stuff! as Avril is awful :(

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Alomie
why do people listen to a girl who acts like she made it all buy herself and we all know blatently that she is awful!
Anyone who likes her hasn't heard her sing live! (she dosn't sing in tune *ouch*)

I know every one has a right to there own opinion and all but man! she should be shot!

If your gonna listen to "rock" listen to the non commersialied stuff! as Avril is awful :(

I think the death penalty for being not to your taste is a little harsh :isay:. Or maybe you would just kneecap her...

All music is commercialised t a degree, it's how you get to hear it. Anyhting that has been on TV is being hyped, anything live has been hyped, anything on record has been hyped, whether it is by the band itself or by a marketing team. As such I would be interested to know what uncommercial rock we should listen to.

Finally peole have lauded Avril for her inability to sing live. I could just point out some names:

John Lennon
Ozzy Osbourne
Jimi Hendrix
Iggy Pop

All ropey singers live, but live rock music isn't about singing in tune, it's about the energy of seeing the songs performed live.

I think Avril gets a lot of stick because of her image. If she had an alt.country image noone would hate her, but because she dresses like you might, like she gets clothes from Hot Topic or West49 or Free Spirit or whatever it's a threat to what you see as "your" culture.

At the end of the day she is a girl who is into MOR teen pop punk who sings alt.country for a living. Better than flipping burgers for less thn minimum wage eh?

[Scribbly]

Originally posted by Rhaeven
The basis of the music is the fact that skate punk is growing popular. Remember Bowling For Soup? Those two singles they did made skate punk popular.

Avril isn't a skate punk, not that it makes a difference, but she makes out that she's hardcore and she's not.

I dislike the music because it is very simplistic and the lyrics are childish, and based on values that the recording company know will appeal to little 14 year old hoodie-brigadiers.

'He was a skater boy, she said see ya later boy, he wasn't good enough for her.' All she's doing here is playing off trendies against skaters. She knows that 'all' 'skaters' 'hate' 'trendies' (yes, every part of that sentance deserved quotation marks) and therefore she (*snicker*) 'writes' a song about how skaters rock and trendies suck.

My feelings about her excatly!

(posted the pic below a while ago on another thread)

[squealpiggy]

It's a flawed viewpoint for the reason that Avril Lavigne doesn't appeal to 14 year olds, she's marketed to 10 year olds. The likes of Marylin Manson, Blink 182 and Evanescence are marketed to 14 year olds.

[squealpiggy]

I wouldn't say that mainstream = good, for example Madonna's new output is awful, plus there's such utter gunk released from reality tv shows such as Pop Idol, it makes a mockery of the whole music scene.

I think in a big way most of the general public will largely buy what they hear, ie what is played on the radio. A minority are more discerning about the music they listen to. An larger minority deliberately eschew artists that they think are "sellouts". I find this bizarre. If I don't like a group I won't buy their records, simple. I won't spend a great deal of time being anoyed by a group that I don't like.

Except for Red Hot Chilli Peppers. I hate them!

[Alomie]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
I think the death penalty for being not to your taste is a little harsh :isay:. Or maybe you would just kneecap her...


yeah ok! the death penalty is a bit harsh, but you do see where i'm coming from right?
and the singers you mentioned, yes true all very ropey live singers! but they could all at least wirte their own music and play an instument!
and Avril just rips off Un-signed singers/songwriters and takes the music and songs from them! (without permission)
she was getting sued but several bands for her album!
:rawk:

[squealpiggy]

Was she successfully sued? Because if she wasn't successfully sued for that then you have committed libel by asserting allegations of fact in a published medium. ;)

[bulbie]

you want to know why most people with half a brain hate bovril? its becauseshe makes herself out to be something shes not. she complains that oh they made me do this they mad me do that theyre saying I'm this but im not really. all she had to do was say no to the things she didnt want right from the start then she wouldnt have such a bad rep.as for her not being happy with being labelled as something she says she isnt thats fame for ya. if she didnt want that she shouldnt have tried to get famous in the first place. if this is what you want in a career, you've got to take the rough with the smooth. i have heard the let go cd and i have to say its a load of utter bollocks. the lyrics are inded very immature and this is quite possibly a little known fact - she does not actually write her own lyrics - her drummer does. the rest of the songs are covers of little known songs from 20, 30 years ago, hence everyone thinks theyre original cos they havent heard them before. she says she wants to be classed as punk cos thats what she sings? its a load of piffle. i am friendly with mates of the cure and suchlike who are real punks and she sopunds nothing like that. she thinks its not fair she is getting classified as pop - she is pop thats why she gets classified as a pop singer. if she genuinely was rock that is what she would be classified as. manufactured shit like her music has to go. it has been, and continues to be the downfall of our once great music industry. oh yes, and just so you know my feelings about avril are not brought about because i dont like that kind of music - i am very much so a rock fan and have been for many years, i am also a musician which means that i can sort out the crap from the quality and she is definitely crap.

[Ratboy]

barvo for that speech. can you put little lines inbeetween, so it's easier to read?

[bulbie]

yes of coursnot a problem. next time I end up writing a speech i will do that for you. :)

[Ratboy]

thanks. I have noticed that in awards shows on tv, they always refer to hr as a " good contender on the pop scene"
even tv agrees that she is not punk. T.V. is always right. well, sometimes.

[bulbie]

sometimes tv is right. yes. but in this case it is definitely right. tv is whenre the majority of publicity is at the moment so that is where she is seen most so if tv says she is pop then it must be so. that must be the thoughts of the majority of the public, dont you think?

[Ratboy]

i know, i was joking. T.V. is very daft.
I hate avril, but i wouldn't be mad at her if she stopped saying whe was punk.

[bulbie]

see? I'm the same. i wouldnt mind her half as much if she would stop being so immature and claiming to be what shes not.

[Ratboy]

she is exactly how she describes that guy in her first song, complicated.

[bulbie]

yus. i just cant stand people like that. she needs to sort herself out, but i think the damage is done.

[Ratboy]

it has been done. I wont listen to her, ever, even if she turns herself around.

[bulbie]

me either. i heard the cd , thought it wasa load of immature boloocks and was put right off. and i like to think i am very open minded about the music i listen to.

[Ratboy]

I liek the darkness, greenday and blink 182.yeah.

[bulbie]

yeah, theyre great bands. I have all of green days albums but have not yet heard the darkness's album. whats it like?:weebl:

[Ratboy]

It's great, i've got a copied version.

[bulbie]

kewl, i might look out for it then. what other kinds of music do you like then? you seem quite open minded. :)

[Ked]

Can you two use IM or at least PM each other please?

[squealpiggy]

Bulbie you know nothing about Avril Lavigne. Here are the album credits:

Losing Grip written by Avril Lavigne and Clif Magness
Complicated written by Avril Lavigne and The Matrix
Sk8er Boi written by Avril Lavigne and The Matrix
I'm With You written by Avril Lavigne and The Matrix
Mobile written by Avril Lavigne and Clif Magness
Unwanted written by Avril Lavigne and Clif Magness
Tomorrow written by Avril Lavigne, Curt Frasca and Sabelle Breer
Anything but Ordinary written by Avril Lavigne and The Matrix
Things I'll Never Say written by Avril Lavigne and The Matrix
My World written by Avril Lavigne and Clif Magness
Nobody's Fool written by Avril Lavigne and Peter Zizzo
Too Much To Ask written by Avril Lavigne and Clif Magness
Naked written by Avril Lavine, Curt Frasca and Sabelle Breer

So it seems that the whole of the Let Go album was made of original compositions. None of them were exclusively Avril's work but there are a hundred and one ways you can slate something you don't like without resorting to making stuff up. Let's face it, Avril is not exactly a difficult target. I could rip her to shreds journalistically and I'm a fan of hers, you are just not trying hard enough!

I think that you don't like her because she threatens your self image: You can't handle that maybe a pop girl listens to the same music as you.

[mini_ninja_pir8]

she sucks!her music is absolute crap,she dresses/tries way too hard and she is basically contradicting herself! and another thing about her is the way she said no to her record executives coz all they wanted to do is "shove celene dion type songs down her throat" i mean she did make "im with you" to sound like a ballard/sad/slow type of song

she sucks.....another manufactured pop creation like t.A.T.u

and t.a.t.u arent that lesbian after all.........:D

[squealpiggy]

What... are you on about?!

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
I'm listening to the Avril album, Let Go, and I just wanted to say that I think she's great! Why do so many people hate her?

I'm sorry to be rude, but this is a bit of a stupid question!

It's like asking 'why do so many people hate marmite?'

/Me does the math.

Different people = different tastes.

[squealpiggy]

No, that's not what I meant. I don't like Metallica but I would never make a website about how I hate them. I'm not into house music but I don't hate it, I just don't like to listen to it. There are people who hate Avril with a bizarre passion. I mean no band that isn't to your taste is worth the effort to actively hate them!

Except the Red Hot Chilli Peppers...

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
No, that's not what I meant.

Well then you didnt phrase your question very well : p

I spose if she killed small puppies then I'd probably have an intense disliking for her, but to me she is just annoying & I dont like her songs, so I dont take any notice.

[Ratboy]

I just don't like her music- i've heard so much stuff like her, and i just ignore the charts altogether. I rely on llistening to the radio at various points in the day, telling my friends what is good, and them telling me what they like ( that's how i got my first greenday album, my friend recommedned them). My friends have formed their own band now, called the exposed, and it refuses to use anything on thier CDs that isn't theirs.they don't have that many songs yet, so they do play other people's in gig's.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by mpd
Well then you didnt phrase your question very well : p

I spose if she killed small puppies then I'd probably have an intense disliking for her, but to me she is just annoying & I dont like her songs, so I dont take any notice.

I think that I worded my question in the right way: you didn't see it as a matter of hatred because you feel that hating a pop star is a silly waste of time, kinda like I do. But the people that do hate her are suckered into going into their rants about her, which gives me an insight into where they're coming from.

[Ratboy]

I'm quite happy to just watch her flounder in the ignorent publics spotlight. but i hate her. I wont rant, no, but i hate her.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Ratboy
I'm quite happy to just watch her flounder in the ignorent publics spotlight. but i hate her. I wont rant, no, but i hate her.

I'm not sure exactly what that means but she's been quite successful for a flounderer.

[mpd]

Originally posted by Pinkerbell
As I've said before, what the hell is so wrong with mainstream music? It's mainstream for a reason, which means *guess what* it's GOOD.

As far as I am aware most chart music is in the charts because it sells alot at a specific time, which doesn’t necessarily make it good.

You're comment also implies that everything that isn’t in the charts fails to make the charts because its crap (overlooking the fact that some artists don’t want to be, or don’t care about being in the charts, because they are more interested in the quality of the music they produce rather than how much money & fame they get from it. & they don't have record companies that push advertising & television appearances like they would do if they were a bottle of frickin shampoo.) which is just ridiculous.

The rate of which something sells at does not indicate quality, it indicates popularity.

Popularity is a good indicator of what appeals most to the target consumer (ie. the people who purchase singles or albums).

Singles & albums that make the charts do so because they have a sudden influx of people purchasing a certain cd close to its release date because the target consumer has been made aware of its release through heavy advertising/promotion etc. Albums that remain underground, ( some examples of well known underground artists; Dj Shadow, Roots manuva, Blackalicous) , are actually very popular within the underground scene. They probably do sell a lot of albums, but because they don;t have the use of advertising at the release date they don’t sell huge quantise of albums when its released. They sell albums over a long period of time. People buy the album in their own time when they have discovered the artist for themselves.

Personally I think most chart music is half assed bullshit aimed (when I say aimed I mean heavily advertised) at people who can't be bothered to find decent music because they like everything handed to them on a plate.

But that’s just my opinion.

I think that I worded my question in the right way: you didn't see it as a matter of hatred

Again, you didn’t make that clear in your question.

I'm not a mind reader ya know.

[bulbie]

you are right mpd most chart stuff is only popular cos it sells a lot at that time.

[Ratboy]

" people are entitled to opinions. wrong opinions"
[/stupid qoute]

[mpd]

If you think my opinion is wrong then it is down to you to prove me wrong (not that opinions can be wrong. Just different).

[Ratboy]

i'm not talking about your opinion, i'm talking about others opinions to go out and buy the shit that's swamping the charts.

[mpd]

oh right

my bad :P

/me is way too defensive

[Ratboy]

I don't blame you. my qoutes are generally missqoutes.

[bulbie]

people arenititled to their on opinions. yes.

[Ratboy]

usually wrong ones.

[Rogue]

I find her music annoying. ESpecially that song where she sings "its a damn cold night".

Uninspired.

[bulbie]

that song is called I'm with you and is actually a little known song from the 80s I think it was. What Avril has been doing is taking songs like this and putting her name on the credits list thingy so it looks as though she has written it herself but indeed hasn't.

[Ratboy]

if she kept the same, and made a statement, i wouldn't minsd, but she changes to hog the lime-light. she just doesn't stay true to her roots. bah.

[Rogue]

ah so the music is not even her own? Well that is lame.

[bulbie]

Originally posted by Ratboy
if she kept the same, and made a statement, i wouldn't minsd, but she changes to hog the lime-light. she just doesn't stay true to her roots. bah.

that is it exactly ratboy

[Ratboy]

thank you. I will now wait for something to comment on.

[bulbie]

no rogue, the music is not hers, she just puts on her album cover her name so that she gets credit for the music and so people will defend her by saying look her name is on the album cover! She must have written the songs!


most people who like her believe this, but a word to the wise, don't believe everything you read. :)

[Ratboy]

very wise. whoever reset you didn't look at the valuable posts you made in here.

[bulbie]

i agree. I really haven't set out to make trouble an want to fix whatever it is I have done. :weebl:

[Ratboy]

i probably would have had mine reset after the old pub incident, if i hadn't stopped spamming.

[bulbie]

I'm a little confused as to what spamming actually is now.

[squealpiggy]

that song is called I'm with you and is actually a little known song from the 80s I think it was. What Avril has been doing is taking songs like this and putting her name on the credits list thingy so it looks as though she has written it herself but indeed hasn't.



Who wrote it then? Because if Avril had evilly just taken a cover version and put her own name on it along with the name of the people credited as co-writers then surely that would be defrauding the original artist!

The reason that Avril is names on the credits of all the songs on the album is because she had a hand in writing them, there's nothing sinister about that. I'm not under any illusions about her talent, I am fully aware that most of the songwriting and arrangement is dome by various writing teams, but if she is credited she was involved. Or do you think that this is some insidious attempt to fool the kids into thinking she's a talented singer songwriter, despite the fact that kiddy pop bands have rarely had a part in the writing of "their" songs?

[bulbie]

its a well known fact that bands of today very rarely write thier own sngs.

[Ratboy]

kids today don't care about talent, it's about what's
"cool"
if theier frineds like it, it's cool, and they'll get it, if they don't, they won't.
It's not talent for the kids, it's not even if it sounds good, it's if it'll make them popular.

[bulbie]

Originally posted by Ratboy
kids today don't care about talent, it's about what's
"cool"
if theier frineds like it, it's cool, and they'll get it, if they don't, they won't.
It's not talent for the kids, it's not even if it sounds good, it's if it'll make them popular.

Again, my friend, in a nutshell. You are right again. :)

[Ratboy]

thank you.
I like being right. handed that is.:)

[Tart]

...Am I too late for the debate? :weebl:

http://recroommagazine.com/articles/a*v*r*i*l.htm

I like that article. :D

Edit: Stupid board. It kept changing to borvil, so just take out the *'s. -_-;;

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by bulbie
its a well known fact that bands of today very rarely write thier own sngs.

Over in debates we like to back up our "facts" with evidence.

[bulbie]

not at all tart. And why is it that you like your right hand so much, Rat boy? Hmmm? ;) :D

[Tart]

Originally posted by bulbie
And why is it that you like your right hand so much, Rat boy? Hmmm? ;) :D

I think we know......it's obviously his pimp hand. =O

[bulbie]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Aw, we love you really, Ratboy! :D :love:

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Over in debates we like to back up our "facts" with evidence.

Its actually really difficult to find out the credits on an album (believe me, I've just spent the last 10 minutes searching for album credits. If only I could have those ten minutes back...) unless you have a copy & I don't think someone who doesnt like her is gunna fork out £16.99 just to find out that she 'co-wrote' * the songs, which can mean she had as little input as a few words.

* I am taking that statement from the source (http://recroommagazine.com/articles/bovril.htm) Tart provided. Change bovril to Avril. heh

[bulbie]

Thank you, mpd. Exactly it.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by mpd
Its actually really difficult to find out the credits on an album (believe me, I've just spent the last 10 minutes searching for album credits. If only I could have those ten minutes back...) unless you have a copy & I don't think someone who doesnt like her is gunna fork out £16.99 just to find out that she 'co-wrote' * the songs, which can mean she had as little input as a few words.

* I am taking that statement from the source (http://recroommagazine.com/articles/bovril.htm) Tart provided. Change bovril to Avril. heh

I have already posted the credits from the album which I have on this thread, like two pages back. She is credited on all the songs along with one of four writing teams, either The Matrix, Clif Magness, Peter Zizzo, Curt Frasca and Sabelle Breer or a combination of those. No song on the album has been credited to any earlier artist, none of the copywrite notices has a date in the eighties so it is safe to assume that she has not been plagiarising songs to any greater degree than any other pop artist.

I am still always confused as to why people hate her enough to try and fabricate stories as to the origins of her songs. She's a teen pop start for god's sake.

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
I have already posted the credits from the album which I have on this thread, like two pages back.

My bad, I didn’t notice those.

However

Originally posted by squealpiggy
She is credited on all the songs along with one of four writing teams

Writing teams.

:rolleyes:

Its all a bit vague isn't it?

It doesn’t really say exactly what she has written & there probably isn't anyway of finding that out, unless you happen to know someone who works with her.

Therefore you can only really go on what you personally think on how much she wrote. It might not be fact, but opinion is still valid.

I personally choose to believe that she probably didn't contribute a great deal, probably just a few lines here n there, because I feel her label probably wanted a certain sound & already approached a professional song writing team & asked them to produce a certain type of song & let her sit in on a few sessions so it a) makes her feel like she has some sort of control & b) It looks good on the credits.

That is just based on my opinion so it could be totally wrong, but that’s what I think.

If you can come up with some concrete 100% accurate evidence to prove my opinion wrong there then I will take that back.


Originally posted by squealpiggy I am still always confused as to why people hate her enough to try and fabricate stories as to the origins of her songs.

I don't think people intended to fabricate things. I think some people probably confuse opinions with solid facts.

& hey, everyone hates something.

I'm sure there must be something you hate that someone else couldn't give a monkey’s about.

People need to vent their frustrations.

[bulbie]

i agree with you mpd.

[Ratboy]

anyway, wasn't the original question why do people hate avril lavigne?
well, the reason is that she is a pretender, and her music is unoriginal. I think it should be a syndrome.

[bulbie]

A song comes to mind when I think of Avril. It was written by the late, great Freddie Mercury and its called The Great Pretender. :)

[squealpiggy]

Writing teams.

Its all a bit vague isn't it.

It doesn’t really say exactly what she has written & there probably isn't anyway of finding that out, unless you happen to know someone who works with her.

Therefore you can only really go on what you personally think on how much she wrote. It might not be fact, but opinion is still valid.


I personally think she wrote very little. Possibly she had a pretty open hand in the lyrics, which were then cleaned up to make them scan. She will probably also have had a bit of input in the melody writing phase. But that's not my point, I mean she's a pop star, writing songs is not what pop stars do.

My point and the entire point of the thread is that people hate her to such a degree that they will look for reasons that simply aren't there to hate her. The reason that people invent reasons for hating her is because they feel guilty for hating her for basically invalid reasons. The main reason people hate her is because they are young, trying to forge an identity for themselves and they feel that a pop star is intruding on their identity by dressing like them. Obviously that's not acceptable because to hate someone for that reason is pretty shallow so they try and find other reasons for hating her:

"She steals other people's songs, all her songs are covers, she says she's punk but she's really a Christian blah and furthermore blah"

At the end of the day she is a pop star like Mandy Moor, Christina Aguilera or Billy Piper, and to take her seriously enough to hate her is a little strange. What a waste of effort!

I'm sure there must be something you hate that someone else couldn't give a monkey’s about.


Red Hot Chilli Peppers! I hate them!

[Ratboy]

yes, i suppose she probably decided what the song should be a bout, and even helped with the melody, but even so, she probably didn't do much of the work.

[bulbie]

hey, I feel no guilt.

[Ratboy]

why would you?

[bulbie]

i shoudn't. there is no reason to. I hate her, yes but because she is a shit musician.

[Ratboy]

I hate her, but if people enjoy her music, i say they should be allowed. I mean, half the world hates my choice in usic, but they don't try and stop me listening to it.

[PoofBird]

main reason why people hate her, or any artist, is when they confuse genre with subculture.

eminem is undoubtedly hiphop, by genre. So is Snoop Dogg, 50 cent and all others.

Members of the hiphop subculture take offense, because a lot of people confuse making hiphop-style music, with 'being hiphop.
whatever that means

Avril is undoubtedly rock (or even punk), by genre. So is Good Charlotte, Busted and all others.

Members of the punk subculture take offense, because a lot of people confuse making punk-style music, with 'being punk.
whatever that means

William Goatshaver is undoubtedly country, by genre. So is Redneck McYeehaw, Cowboy Billy Boom and all others.

Members of the country subculture take offense, because a lot of people confuse making country-style music, with 'being country.
whatever that means

edit: ratboy and bulbie: stop with the one sentence comments. this is not a chatbox

[Ratboy]

okay, i'm sorry poofbird.
I suppose that is why people take offense. but i wouldn't go as far to say that avril lavigne is punk. punk is stuff that:
1. hates pretty much anything
2. swears rathera lot ( goobye good charlotte)
3. isn't pop.
4 thankyou, come again.

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by Ratboy
okay, i'm sorry poofbird.
I suppose that is why people take offense. but i wouldn't go as far to say that bovril lavigne is punk. punk is stuff that:
1. hates pretty much anything
2. swears rathera lot ( goobye good charlotte)
3. isn't pop.
4 thankyou, come again.

agreed, that is punk-subculture

punk genre music, is upbeat rock'n'roll with loud guitars... some songs of avril fully qualify.

[Ratboy]

yes, they do in that category.
their should be more specific ones that seperate good bands (greenday) from poor groups/vocalists ( avril lavigne)

[Dr_nwa]

i don't mind bovril at all. she makes music that i don't listen to, so we go our separate ways. if i hear it in the pub, i hum along, then forget i heard it.
i do this with most music that i don't listen to.

categorising music is waste of time, it adds to confusion and allows music snobs.

[Magpie]

oh dear.

GreenDay.

how are they that different from avril?

both punk-pop, both have guitars and slightly whiny vocals.

quite similar tune structure of songs.


similar maybe, better nope.

[Ratboy]

I don't mind hearing the odd track, but i hate hearing a whole selection one after the other. One does me quite nicely, thank you.
greenday are nothing like bovril, because greenday
1. have a sense of humour
2. write their own music
3. play just as well live as they do on C.D., which isn't the case with bovril
4. have good tunes.

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
But that's not my point, I mean she's a pop star, writing songs is not what pop stars do.

I don't think people who can't even write there own music deserve the kind of 'respect' & fame & stupid awards & ridiculous amounts of attention & money & all the other perks they get for being a celebrity.


Originally posted by squealpiggy My point and the entire point of the thread is that people hate her to such a degree that they will look for reasons that simply aren't there to hate her. The reason that people invent reasons for hating her is because they feel guilty for hating her for basically invalid reasons. The main reason people hate her is because they are young, trying to forge an identity for themselves and they feel that a pop star is intruding on their identity by dressing like them. Obviously that's not acceptable because to hate someone for that reason is pretty shallow so they try and find other reasons for hating her:

i don't think it's fair to assume that everyone who dislikes her makes up stories to explain why they dislike her & that they are trying to 'forge' an identity etc etc. Sure some are probably like that, but I doubt that is the stance that all people who dislike her take.

I think she genuinely does get up people's noses for valid reasons.

You don't seem to have much confidence in the minds of todays youth.

i]Originally posted by squealpiggy [/i]At the end of the day she is a pop star like Mandy Moor, Christina Aguilera or Billy Piper, and to take her seriously enough to hate her is a little strange.

See, you've just given me a great example.

She's a pop star, yet hides behind a 'punk skater' facade. I'm sure that annoys many people.


Originally posted by PoofBird
main reason why people hate her, or any artist, is when they confuse genre with subculture.

eminem is undoubtedly hiphop, by genre. So is Snoop Dogg, 50 cent and all others.

Members of the hiphop subculture take offense, because a lot of people confuse making hiphop-style music, with 'being hiphop.
whatever that means

I can't speak for every hip hop fan. I can only speak for myself, but I dislike the type of rappers you mentioned there because

a) They rap about things I dislike/ I find offensive, eg. Guns, Money, Sex/sexist comment which often refer to women as bit of meat, Ego's, 'keeping it real' one of the most over used yet meaningless phrases I’ve ever come across! etc.

b) I find the lyrics basic at best.

c) I find the beats basic at best.

d) I don't think they produce anything new or innovative. It all seems to the same re-hashed crap marketed to people who don't know/ can't be bother to find anything better.

e) When I say I like hip hop I have to explain that I don't like eminem, snoop dogg, 50 cent etc & that this is not all that hip hop has to offer,

f) It puts a lot of people who may otherwise like hip hop off listening to hip hop.

I'm sure I've missed some reasons that I can't think of right now & I'm pretty sure there are other people who felt he same who could put in their reasons for disliking them.

So in conclusion I think that sometimes there is more depth to why people dislike artists like Avril that what you guys are giving them credit for.

It all boils down to different tastes.

[Ratboy]

that's generally the case on things like music and arts.
that is why there should be more solid fact debates, like my rainforest one. it's actually quite enlightening!

[squealpiggy]

Today's youth is much the same as yesterdays and the day before that. They bought pretty much what they were told to buy, same as today.

Avril has a punk stance so gets up people's noses? Why would you care? She only affects you if you let her, same as any other artist. Again it comes down to people thinking that their cliques nd fashions are being usurped by an obviously pop individual.

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Avril has a punk stance so gets up people's noses? Why would you care? She only affects you if you let her, same as any other artist. Again it comes down to people thinking that their cliques nd fashions are being usurped by an obviously pop individual.

I have intense disliking for flakey people & bullshiters.

& anyway, why does it bother you so much if people don't like her?

Why do you care?

[squealpiggy]

It's not people not liking her. It's a fun exploration of why she engendres this much hatred.

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
It's not people not liking her. It's a fun exploration of why she engendres this much hatred.

You've had plenty of reasons.

By now we should of all sat down for a cup of coffee (or tea if you prefer) & then buggerd off home.

[squealpiggy]

I'm still no closer to knowing exactly why people would hate a complete stranger on the basis of her performing songs that aren't to your taste.

[mpd]

Oh for crying out loud.

Unless you go round & ask everyone in the world who hates Avril (or any other shitty celebrity) why they dislike them when they've never met them then you're never going to know why.

People find different things annoying.

Now I'm off to do something that is actually gunna get me somewhere.

/me buggers off home.

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by mpd
Oh for crying out loud.

Unless you go round & ask everyone in the world who hates Avril (or any other shitty celebrity) why they dislike them when they've never met them then you're never going to know why.

He's not. He's only asking people on this forum. If you don't wish to answer that, don't.

/me buggers off home.

good. because you're being harsh and offensive without any reason.

[Rogue]

nothing is worse than excessive internet harshness. Well actually a lot of things are.:rolleyes:

[mpd]

Originally posted by PoofBird
He's not. He's only asking people on this forum. If you don't wish to answer that, don't.

because you're being harsh and offensive without any reason.

Oh no, poofbird is being mean to me! :rolleyes:

Like I give a shit what you think!

Squealpiggy had plenty of reasons from forum members & he was still not satisfied.

[Rogue]

I don't think poofbird is mean. :confused:

[mpd]

I didnt think my post was offensive, but hey :P

[Rogue]

Well, I do not think bovril is worth anyone getting into a major fight :p

It is not like she runs death camps, etc.

I did not read all of what you wrote so i am just being silly.

edit: hey you cannot type "@vril" without it coming out as bovril. hmmm avril.... i htink the admins are getting sick of this debate

[mpd]

I wasnt really annoyed until pb came along n starting calling me offensive when I blatently wasn't.

I mean Avril is annoying n everything but it's not really the basis for a serious argument :P

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by mpd
Like I give a shit what you think!

Squealpiggy had plenty of reasons from forum members & he was still not satisfied.

Such a good argument in a debate...

SP has had some reasons yes, but that doens't mean they are valid.
A lot of arguments go along the line of "she has been marketed and is therefore bad and her music is of no consequence."

Or:

"She doesn't write her own stuff and is therefore a lesser artist"

i might in the same vein say that actors are less than actor/writers or abstract painters are better than figurative ones...

Was Marcel Duchamps less artist than Da Vinci because he only drew a moustasche on the Mona Lisa?

You study art, mpd, why can't you appreciate there is a difference between taste and quality?

[cadex]

Originally posted by Rogue
edit: hey you cannot type "@vril" without it coming out as bovril. hmmm bovril.... i htink the admins are getting sick of this debate


its a word filter, changes avril to bovril

[mpd]

Originally posted by Destrukto
You study art, mpd, why can't you appreciate there is a difference between taste and quality?

I study fashion darling fashion.

We're all tastless bitches in the fashion department.

[Rogue]

Originally posted by Destrukto


Was Marcel Duchamps less artist than Da Vinci because he only drew a moustasche on the Mona Lisa?

]

I understand the point you were trying to make dest. However I still think that marcel duchamps is less of an artist than da vinci. It takes no real talent to draw a mustache on something.

Although i do not think the Mona Lisa is that wonderful either.

I suppose the truth of the matter is that "good art" is in the eye of the beholder. What one person thinks is good, another person might find stinky.

Therefore, to some people @vril is a good artist. Their view is valid. To some people she is not a good artist. Their view is valid too.

[Dr_nwa]

Originally posted by Rogue

edit: hey you cannot type "@vril" without it coming out as bovril. hmmm bovril.... i htink the admins are getting sick of this debate
Yeah i noticed that as well.
it could mean they don't like her either...

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by mpd
I study fashion darling fashion.

We're all tastless bitches in the fashion department.

Still, I am surprised the distinction has not been made...

[mpd]

Like Rouge said, it's pretty much down to the person beholding the art rather than the one creating it.

If you can find meaning or depth or beauty in Avrils 'work' then fair enough, but I don't.

The fact that she doesn't even compose the music or write her own lyrics by herself, but just performs them, well it's just adding insult to injury.

[cadex]

Originally posted by Work?
Yeah i noticed that as well.
it could mean they don't like her either...

just got annoyed with the amount of threads and posts about avril smegging lavigne on the last forum.

she's a crappy pop act, like almost everything on tv and doesnt deserve all this attention imho.

[PoofBird]

www.allmusic.com wrote:


Rock & roll wild child Avril Lavigne hit big in summer 2002 with her spiky-fun debut song "Complicated," shifting pop music into a different direction. Lavigne, who was 17 at the time, didn't seem concerned with the glamor of the TRL-dominated pop world and such confidence allowed her star power to soar.
The middle of three children in small town Napanee, Ontario, Lavigne's rock ambitions were noticeable around age two. By her early teens, she was already writing songs and playing guitar. The church choir and local festivals and county fairs also allowed Lavigne to get her voice heard, and luckily, Arista Records' main man Antonio "L.A." Reid was listening. He offered her a deal, and at 16, Lavigne's musical dreams became reality.

With Reid's assistance and a new Manhattan apartment, Lavigne found herself surrounded by prime songwriters and producers, but it wasn't impressive enough for her to continue. She had always relied on her own ideas to create a musical spark and things weren't going as planned. Lavigne wasn't disillusioned, though. She headed for Los Angeles and Nettwerk grabbed her. Producer/songwriter Clif Magness (Celine Dion, Wilson Phillips, Sheena Easton) tweaked Lavigne's melodic, edgy sound and her debut, Let Go, was the polished product.




seems she did write her own songs, as i've read a number of times in reviews.

[mpd]

I've read in a number of reviews she didnt.

Only way to know is to look at the credits in the album.

I'd have to buy a copy first & that is something that I am certainly not going to do!

[mpd]

You have the album.

You probably like it,

You are probably biased.

I do not trust your opinion.

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by mpd
You have the album.

You probably like it,

You are probably biased.

I do not trust your opinion.

it's not an opinion, it's something she read. it says so on the album! How on earth can you not trust that?

and you are a very poor debater if you think people who disagree with you are biased, and therefore you don't trust their opinions.
That's rather sad.

[mpd]

Originally posted by PoofBird
and you are a very poor debater if you think people who disagree with you are biased, and therefore you don't trust their opinions.
That's rather sad.

Here we go again with the insults.

I don't give a rats ass what you think of my debating skills.

Got that?

Originally posted by Pinkerbell
Damn right I like it.

Why else would I have bought it? :rolleyes:

Everyone has their own opinions about music, simple as that.

All you can do is say what you think, you can't say someone else's opinion is wrong.

You were stating that she writes her own lyrics as a fact.

As in you were represnting a factual source.

But you like the album & her as an artist so you could be lying.

I remeber earlier Squeal Piggy said that the credits sais that she works with a number of 'writing teams'.

Which one is it?

Its just my opinion & like you just said opinions cant be wrong.

[Rogue]

The following was taken from her official site:

Avril couldn't be happier with the way the album turned out. "In this past year I've really grown as a writer. 'Complicated' wasn't written about anyone in particular. It is basically about life, people being fake and relationships." As to one of her favorite tracks, "Losing Grip," she says, "That is definitely one of my ex-boys-he didn't give me what I needed emotionally." Avril laughs, "It doesn't matter now, and plus I got a good song out of it."

small-town kid who couldn't sit still in class but had the confidence and determination to take off, virtually on her own, to hone her songwriting skills in New York City and Los Angeles

It seems as though she does write some of her songs.

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by mpd
Here we go again with the insults.

I don't give a rats ass what you think of my debating skills.

Got that?

What is the insult? That you debate poorly, and everytime someone questions your assumptions you take refuge in "well, I don't like it, and they are stupid" arguments?

That you think that a bias on the one side is more valuable than a bias to the other side? (which is called double standards)

The statement that you are a poor debater is not an insult, but an observation.

In debating you shouldn't take observations personal, as this leads to these kinds of statements...

[mpd]

No I'm pretty sure it's an insult.

Its meant in a patronising & derogatory manor.

& who made you the high might judge of debating?

Especially since its you & poofbird making those comments as I have expressed my dislike for you before & you guys just can't seem to handle that.

[Rogue]

why don't you guys just agree to disagree about @vril. Although i it is a fact that she does some song writing.

[mpd]

Originally posted by Rogue
why don't you guys just agree to disagree about @vril. Although i it is a fact that she does some song writing.

I'm pretty sure i DID on the last page!

If the dutch pair have quite finished dissing me!

(some songs doesnt mean all songs).

[Rogue]

Ok well just forget it happened and move forth and nothing else will come of it.

Unless you guys want some dueling pistols and an alarm call for the next dawn.

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by mpd
No I'm pretty sure it's an insult.

Especially since its you & poofbird making those comments as I have expressed my dislike for you before & you guys just can't seem to handle that.

I will make no secret of the fact I dislike your thinking...
It bears all the marks of the "angsty, whiny and misguided" teenagers you go on about...

You have stated against those teenagers, when they replied to you" Take it and don't whine"

What do I see if I dispute one of your statements?
The very same...

You dislike me (where is the distinction between message and messenger there, wasn't it just an opinion?), and why not?
If I agree with you I wil.

The things we clash about are mostly about art/creativity etc.
Things we both feel strongly about.
I will hold my end and you will hold yours...

I just don't like double standards, that's all

btw. I would have mad exactly the same posts against any other forumite and have done so...
Don't give yourself credit where none is due :rolleyes:

[squealpiggy]

The thing is a fan won't resort to half truths and lies to win a debate on the internet. If she didn't write her own songs we would say "She doesn't write her own songs, so what, I still like em!" and have done with it. Lying would be pointless.

[Noot]

and what the hell is that "i do not trust your opinion" about anyway?? last time i checked, you didn't have to trust someone's opinion. it's an OPINION.


Opinion-

n [ME, fr. MF, fr. L opinion-, opinio, fr. opinari] (14c) 1 a: a view, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter.

there's no logical way you can trust or distrust someone's view on something. it's just the way they see things. don't get pissy because the world doesn't revolve around you. it makes you look rather stupid.

[mpd]

Originally posted by Destrukto
I will make no secret of the fact I dislike your thinking...
It bears all the marks of the "angsty, whiny and misguided" teenagers you go on about...I just don't like double standards, that's all

1)where have i gone on about angsty teenagers?

2)where the fuck are the double standerds?

Originally posted by WeePie
don't get pissy because the world doesn't revolve around you.

If that is aimed at me, again, wtf?

[Rogue]

*hands out the dueling pistols*

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by mpd
1)where have i gone on about angsty teenagers?

2)where the fuck are the double standerds?

1) check your posts on this and the old forums...

2) You attack others and when they reply hurt you say "if you can't take it don't start"
When others (ie. me) do this to you, you do the same thing.

That is called "double standards"

[leeroy]

this is really interesting to watch but im getting the hell out of here before the shit hits the fan.

*dashes*

[Noot]

If that is aimed at me, again, wtf?


everyone has their own opinions. which means that you can't get all defensive when someone has a different one from you.

[mpd]

Originally posted by Destrukto
1) check your posts on this and the old forums...

2) You attack others and when they reply hurt you say "if you can't take it don't start"
When others (ie. me) do this to you, you do the same thing.

That is called "double standards"

Old forums?

So what?

I came out with alot of crap in the old forums.

As did you!

Want me to go back & bring it up in an argument I'm having now?

As far as I'm aware I haven't started no shit I can't handle!

Unlike you & poofbird I dont have someone up my ass backing up everything I say!

I'm holding my own & no double standerds!

Originally posted by WeePie
everyone has their own opinions. which means that you can't get all defensive when someone has a different one from you.

I'm getting defensive about several people (funny hows its certain people who usually have a go at me) which has nothing to do with what I was debating in the first place!

Stop attacking me personaly & I will stop being defensive.

[Tart]

Can we get a lock in here? It might be best.

[Noot]

i'm not attacking you...i'm simply letting you know why everyone is getting on your back. because you're acting like you think your opinion is the law, and that's not right.

[Rogue]

Originally posted by WeePie
i'm not attacking you...i'm simply letting you know why everyone is getting on your back. because you're acting like you think your opinion is the law, and that's not right.

that is exactly it. I think you kind of upset people by saying pinkerbell was lying about what was on her CD.

[squealpiggy]

I'm not sure if moderators can splice out posts and put them in new thread on this forum. I know you can do that with the forum I admin for but I'm not sure if that mod option is there.

I just don't want my thread locked! :(

[Tart]

I know, but it's kind of becoming more of an argument then a debate. oO;

[leeroy]

i recon half the forum is watching this

[Destrukto]

I came out with alot of crap in the old forums.

As did you!

Want me to go back & bring it up in an argument I'm having now?


As long as you keep it relevant to the discussion of double standards, please do... we were talking about dissing angsty teenagers and you acting as one, if you don't remember...

Unlike you & poofbird I dont have someone up my ass backing up everything I say!
erm :confused: , who backs up what I say?
Are you implying my posts can't stand by themselves?

Stop attacking me personaly & I will stop being defensive.

I am attacking the points you make, not you...
That is what debating is about...
I still believe this is where you misunderstand the whole issue...

[mpd]

Originally posted by WeePie
i'm not attacking you...i'm simply letting you know why everyone is getting on your back. because you're acting like you think your opinion is the law, and that's not right.

No, I'm acting like I believe what I'm saying because I dont see the point in debating soemthign when I think I'm wrong!

Originally posted by Rogue
that is exactly it. I think you kind of upset people by saying pinkerbell was lying about what was on her CD.

I didn''t mean to upset her personally & if I have I'm sorry.

I was just being cynical.

[Tart]

Originally posted by leeroy
i recon half the forum is watching this

I think you're right. Look at all the users browsing the forum. :D

[Angry_Pierre]

I don't mind Avril Lavigne, I quite like some of her songs.
I especially like 'I'm with you'
Originally posted by Pinkerbell
And I have the album, and it does say that she wrote the lyrics
Originally posted by mpd
You have the album.

You probably like it,

You are probably biased.

I do not trust your opinion.

Oh it all makes sense now! Because she likes Avril she's going to lie about something anyone can check, and make a complete ass out of herself![/sarcasm]

No dice poncho.

[Rogue]

who would have thought @vril could stir up such controversy. I thought she was rather uncontroversial (compared ot other things).

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by Rogue
who would have thought @vril could stir up such controversy. I thought she was rather uncontroversial (compared ot other things).

on the day they captured Saddam... this is a day to cherish :)

[Noot]

a debate is where you voice your opinion about a certain issue, not attack others about having a different one than you. it's ok to have different opinions, the world would be a boring place without them.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Rogue
who would have thought @vril could stir up such controversy. I thought she was rather uncontroversial (compared ot other things).

This is one of the things I love about her, the fact that she can stir up so much emotion while being relatively inoccuous! I mean noone ever started a fight about Shania Twain!

[Angry_Pierre]

I did, it ended in tears for all involved.

[PoofBird]

I thought about bringing up Shania in my Country Music thread (readit!), but i though i'd better not...

we'll be discussing her genocide-crimes before we reach page 3

[Rogue]

Maybe people would rather fight over something harmless than the truly harmful things. That is why i created my cool birds topic because telling someone a turkey is sucky is a lot less hurtful than telling them their political philosophy is sucky.

[leeroy]

yeah but having arguments about politics is often quite rewarding even if you lose horribly

[Rogue]

some people take their politics very seriously and get bent out of shape about them. It is not always rewarding for some people.

Personally I would rather eat raw worms than try and convince someone who is going to hate the USA no matter what i say that the USA is a great place.

[Greg]

All this fighting is making my eyes water.

[leeroy]

Originally posted by Rogue
some people take their politics very seriously and get bent out of shape about them. It is not always rewarding for some people.

Personally I would rather eat raw worms than try and convince someone who is going to hate the USA no matter what i say that the USA is a great place.

ah but sometimes you learn to reach a compramise for example the usa is a good place to live but has some bad points like everywhere else, maybe we have a lesson to learn from my inane rambelings (note: inane is note the same as insane)

[ZekeyLizard]

Should I even read the last 8 or so pages to find out how the hell this happened to this thread?

[Rogue]

probably not. save yourself some time.

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by ZekeyLizard
Should I even read the last 8 or so pages to find out how the hell this happened to this thread?

if you want an amusing read...

[Pee]

woah
isnt this discussion about avril lavigne(i know there have been several "i hate avril she sucks" posts between mine and the big discussion between good ol' mpd vs the two dutchmen, and the two pretty yanks(dont be offended please))
but perhaps a debate debating debates is in order here..
because it seems this discussion isnt about wether people like avril or not..

i for one dont because: i dont like her manufactured person, i dont like the "la la happy happy" punk as a whole, so i dont like avril either, and i do doubt that she had written her own songs. but if the album says so, im not the one to say thats wrong.
because i usually think what is on paper is right(im not beginning about the bible though, ill save that when i have gathered enough strenght to read the whole christianity/god thread).
And i also dont like her "oeeh oeeh im punk watch me kick this litter bin" aditude..


oh and mpd: can you please start typing "and" instead of "&", because it looks like you are not prepared to put enough effort in your posts(not that i dont respect you as a person, and i am NOT attacking you personally)
thanks in advance

[mpd]

Originally posted by Peeps
oh and mpd: can you please start typing "and" instead of "&", because it looks like you are not prepared to put enough effort in your posts(not that i dont respect you as a person, and i am NOT attacking you personally)
thanks in advance

Um, no.

[Pee]

Originally posted by mpd
Um, no.
thanks for yet another highly effortfull post

[ZekeyLizard]

Well.

I have read all 16 or so pages of this thread and wow.


What a load of chatty poo.
What happened to this thing?



I have never seen Squealpig, Poofbird and MPD act in such a way.

Shame.:p

[drew146]

first of all, ill give Avril credit for being original....... WAIT, SHES NOT!! the only thing i give her credit for is being kinda hot, thats about it, everything else about her sux, just listen to words, they're almost as bad as those rappers who rapped about being broke....... it all sux

[ZekeyLizard]

We need to stop this thread
Its causing lots of hatreeeed.
Its so chatty.
And so crappy.
Why do we argue?
About stuff that people do?
Its so crappy
And so spammy.

Bada bada bah
Bada bada baaaaaaah!

No one really wants
To see people flaaaaaaamed
Can we stop this?
This whole entire thing?
No one cares....this argumant is laaaaaame
Oh so chatty
Oh so spammy



(chorus):mad:

[Angel@heart]

nice song Zekey ;)
I like Avril, i like her music and everything, but i havnt seen her around recently, maybe im just in the wrong places at the wrong time...but i havnt heard any new songs lately.
I do like her because shes one of those people who doesnt care what other people think, and will do what they want and feel is right.
I will always respect her for that

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by ZekeyLizard
Well.

I have read all 16 or so pages of this thread and wow.


What a load of chatty poo.
What happened to this thing?



I have never seen Squealpig, Poofbird and MPD act in such a way.

Shame.:p

Me!? I act this way all the time!

[cadex]

Originally posted by Peeps
thanks for yet another highly effortfull post

leave it out cocknocker, you asked a question, she answered.
it doesnt really matter if she types "and" or "&", does it?

[Angry_Pierre]

Leave it out guv, peepers ain't a cocknocker.

Though tis a humorous insult.
tee hee hee

[Rogue]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Me!? I act this way all the time!

He does you know.

Never seems to get tired of debating.:)

[squealpiggy]

Mas-debating!

Sorry that was weak...

[Tommuz]

I was wondering when someone was gonna say that :p

[leeroy]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Mas-debating!

Sorry that was weak...

oh god that always cracks me up

[mpd]

Originally posted by ZekeyLizard

I have never seen Squealpig, Poofbird and MPD act in such a way.


I havent posted for aaaages before this stupid argument (which was a debate before PB started shit) so I'm not sure you've even seen me post enough to know what I'm like.

& Peeps, I will use '&'s' if I frickin like!

I don't see why it matters.

& thankyou cadex for sticking up for me.

/me goes home & locks herself inside.

[Hydralisk]

Originally posted by squealpiggy


Except the Red Hot Chilli Peppers...

Whats your beef with the RHCPs?

And I'm not too bothered by Avril, shes a wee bit overrated I think, but thats all.

[squealpiggy]

They are gutwrenchingly awful! That's my beef!

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by Hydralisk
Whats your beef with the RHCPs?

And I'm not too bothered by Avril, shes a wee bit overrated I think, but thats all.

Dear sir,

Your sarcasm-chip is in the mail. Please install before Christmas.
Our helpdesk may be of assistance with your problems understanding irony and sarcastic comments till then.

Sincerely,

Humour Ltd.

[squealpiggy]

I wasn't being sarcastic, I really do hate the Red Hot Chilli Peppers :D

[Hydralisk]

Originally posted by Pinkerbell
Grrrrr.... :mad:

I'm watching you, buddy!

The Chili Peppers a