The start of Heaven and God

[Maros]

Before I begin, if this has come up before, I apologize before hand. Chances are, this won't come out as well as I hope it will, but here goes. Oh and if I'm way off on some of this, then feel free to scream at me at how far off I am.

A brief thought I had after playing way too much Age of Mythology and thinking more about and the like. Sorta runs like this:
Judaism was started in the Mesopotamian city of Ur. As such, only the people born from him would be Jewish. The bible says that the Jews are Gods chosen people, and if they're good and what not, they go to Heaven. But whatever happened to those poor non-Jewish people? Like lets say, the Aussie's. What did they do? Did they just go to Hell cause they weren’t born Jewish? Somehow I doubt it. So, for the sake of argument, let's say that up until the start and rise of Christianity, the way to get into Heaven was to be A) Jewish or B) good in the eyes of God, or just generally nice.

Then Christianity starts up with Jesus pottering around. After his death, his lovely new religion did rather well with the poor beggar and whoever, and eventually got picked up by Constantine and made the official religion of Rome. But surprisingly enough, not everyone in the world lived near Rome. What happened to all the Vikings, or Africans? Again we're back to the whole "just be good thing".

But what if that wasn't enough? Maybe God chose a form that would most suits the lifestyle of that people. For instance, say a people don't have the best homeland in the world, it's kinda crappy, not allot grows there, but it's home. Due to the lack of resources around, they have to fight to stay alive and the already hardy people get even more so. In knowing this, God made himself into the Gods of that people. Maybe more than one God made more sense.

On the other hand, they might have just picked random things out of the air and called them Gods. However, maybe it wasn't just random, but seems to be so.

Personally I'm sticking, for the time being, to my "God made himself to fit the needs of that specific people" idea, but I was wondering what anyone else thought of it.

[almighty_bob]

dude/dudette, the answer to ur qs, or ur problem (deending how u look at it) is at ur church
despite popular belief, it IS cool to go to church,
whilst there ask if they run an Alpha Course; this will help u, n save me debating God wiv u

God bless,
A

[Maros]

I have yet to find a church near where I live that dosn't drive me mad. The church that I half go to right now, I have gone to, pretty much since I was born. I have yet to have a decent debate with anyone there, or learn hardly anything new. Hence my posting here.

[almighty_bob]

where bouts u live; i'll find ppl to guide u

[Maros]

At present, England...but that's kinda creepy...Besides, if I debate here, I won't get yelled at/stuff thrown at me if I fall asleep. But yea, I'd realy like to know if people think that this is just a load of crap or if it makes some sense.

[squealpiggy]

OK the start of the religion if you go from the bible/torah is this:

Everyone is descended from Noah, but the chosen people are ot "jews" yet, they are the israelites who escape slavery from the Egyptians led by Moses.They become Jews after following Moses to the Land of Milk and Honey... so judaism realy began in ancient egypt, not Mesopotamia (the city of Ur is now Baghdad, Mesopotamia is Iraq). Then the Romans took over Israel... fun for those Jews eh? It is only within the last fifty years that the Jews managed to get Israel back, hence all the trouble about that parched sliver of land.

But from the point of view of Heaven, the New Testament doesn't really mention Heaven too much, they talk about the Kingdom of God. To enter the Kingdom of God you must know Jesus and God and accept them into your life... You don't then automatically go to hell if you fail. The Catholic have a way around this, anyone who isn't up to scratch at death goes into Limbo or Purgatory. There is a suggestion of reincarnation there, but mainly purgatory is a means of coming to terms with youself in the eyes of God. So non beievers who had never heard of God wouldn't just gio to the lake of fire they would have an opportunity to redeem themselves before the day of judgement.

[PoofBird]

Whether you go to church or not, should not stop you from debating and exchanging thoughts...

Where do you live, almighty bob? I might find you a school where you can learn spelling.
Despite popular believe, it IS cool to go to school.

[squealpiggy]

skoll iz kewl LOl u f4git!!!111oneoneone

That sort of writing is bad.

[almighty_bob]

Thank you for your generous offer Poofbird, however I am passed the stage of schooling, and am not at university. I blame this for my poor spelling in the original post. This is due to my lack of sleep the previous few nights, due to the sheer volume of work on my course. As a result, at the time of posting, I had been awake in excess of 36 hours.
With regard to the debate, may I repeat my previous statement; try finding a church which runs an Alpha course, this will help you answer all your questions. If you find difficulting locating one, PM me, and I will use Uni contacts to find one in your area.
God Bless,
A.

[squealpiggy]

Or you could find a decent Roman Catholic church, that way you get to discuss things with the priests (older priests are usually better at this as the blindness of faith has been tempered somewhat by the onset of wisdom) without the slightly creepy jollyness of newer churches.

[almighty_bob]

older churches do also run alpha
it depends wot ur into
my church here in aber is great; it combines the two
it also depends, my friend, on if ur roman catholic or not...
[im just Christian]

[squealpiggy]

I think catholicism gets a lot of stick, I've seen forums where people have said:

"Christians suck they are always preachy!"

the reply

"Well I'm christian and I don't preach, you're thinking of Catholics"

My family are catholic and I was raised as such and I have had a good experience of liberal catholicism. I don't believe it myself, I find the whole concept a bit... silly. I'm not knocking faith, often I wish I could have it, but it makes no sense to me on an intellectual level so I can't really justify it to myself. The trouble is that Catholics have on occasion done a bit of persecution and many of the papal rules are pointlessly incendiary, but having said that there are other groups of Christians that are possibly more hardline than even the staunchest RC.

All I'm saying is don't rule it out just because Catholicism has a bad name. After all the most sane man ever to walk into the Houses of Parliament was a Catholic (Guy Fawkes).

[almighty_bob]

LOL
My dad's catholic, I wasnt dissing, just sayin,
my mum's protestant; and hence they decided that I should make my own choice, and I choose to be Christian.
The preachers are more Evangelical, they are a little extreme and thats what puts some people off.
Its a shame that you dont have faith, I will pray that God will make himself known to you, so you may ask him into your heart.
I am not a preacher, nor an extremist. I have recently started going to church however, and that has changed me. It has re-enforced what I believed before. I had already asked and accepted God into my life. Just now I have the reassurance of others around me.
I am very sceptical of life, and see what you mean by the intellectual side, but many great people still believe. Many have tried to prove that the whole concept is rubbish, but instead they have opened new evidence supporting the existence.
I say, believe what you will, God will show us the way
A

[Sorcha]

If I may, I'd just like to point out that there is really no way of knowing exactly who God's chosen people are or how it all started etc... There will always be Atheists and Agnostics who will argue against whatever Christians or Catholics etc say.

But this is a good debate, yet, I still can't see how going to church will answer those kind of questions. I used to go to church all the time, but I'm and Agnostic because it's franky too way-out and I like to believe in science.

[squealpiggy]

Its a shame that you dont have faith, I will pray that God will make himself known to you, so you may ask him into your heart

No thanks. My girlfriend will think that I have gone weird.

I broke my collarbone once and this Christian skater asked if he could pray for it. I was baffled and a bit worried...

[Sorcha]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
Its a shame that you dont have faith, I will pray that God will make himself known to you, so you may ask him into your heart.

It's up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to have faith or not. Don't want to be rude, but, don't go saying that to people who would just rather be some-what Agnostic.

[almighty_bob]

That is why I was not trying to enforce God upon him, instead I will pray that God will make himself known.
That leaves it up to the individual to let God into their hearts.
As for the collarbone issue; praying, if you beleive, provides comfort (although I will admitt that some peeps are OTT)
Finally, with regard to the church science issue; the two are coming more and more together; and accepting each other...

[*shorty*]

YEAH, flippin too rite... ahem
i believe in God, and i also believe that the best thing i have ever done was to become a Christian :D heheh YAAAY...
JESUS ROCKS MAAANN.......

Peace!

[almighty_bob]

but do you just have faith, or have u truely asked Jesus into your heart?
there is a difference, which I have discovered...
A x.

[*shorty*]

I have faith too... but i did TRULY ask my main man JC into my heart!!!

[almighty_bob]

:)

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
That is why I was not trying to enforce God upon him, instead I will pray that God will make himself known.
That leaves it up to the individual to let God into their hearts.
As for the collarbone issue; praying, if you beleive, provides comfort (although I will admitt that some peeps are OTT)
Finally, with regard to the church science issue; the two are coming more and more together; and accepting each other...

Praying would provide any comfort to a collarbone breakage. Lying down flat on your back provides far more comfort! It really flickin hurts!

[almighty_bob]

You cannt rely upon prayer alone, you acctually have to do something to help yourself
If you are like; well God, this is good, now get me out of this mess, he isnt exactly going to be like; 'well dude, lets see, maybe if I materialize next to you and provide a little basic surgery...'
You have to pray to ask god for help, often he will send it
You got your collarbone sorted didnt you...???
but you had to do something first...
God wants to be let into your life, but its up to you to open the door

[Ferret Pie]

I reckon the bible is too contradictory and things to be a real source(e.g adam is supposed to be first man but one of his two children is worried people will kill him after God sends him away, What people, there are only supposed to be three there). I have a few theories but they are pon the nature of godS not one GOD:
THEORY 1
1) cave-people worship spirits who give them help.
2) this evolves into giving some spirits special attention and none to others
3) only some spirits are left, Gods.
4) a leader cannot control his people so he invents rules from the "gods" to keep them in line.
THEORY 2
1)the old gods are all corrupt and stuff
2)someone searches for "real" god/s
3) they somehow get what they want.
THEORY 3
Crazy people with a certain brain disorder i've been told about imagine they see celestial beings and make a new religion.

[almighty_bob]

the bible does occassionally contridct itself, but often in the old testament people were just trying to get a message across...

thre bible is pretty consistant however, especially compared to othere writings which we now refer to as fact;

eg/ Tactius written AD 100, Earliest copy AD 1100 number of copies; 20
slight allowance for alteration I would say

the bible on the other hand, written AD 40-100
earliest copy AD 130
number of copies 25,000 +
and yet all are coherent...

[Ferret Pie]

agreed but i was just trying to make my point that i don't trust the bible as an historical source.

[almighty_bob]

Which is why Destrukto and I had that exact discussion previously
there an non-biblical references to what happened;
I quoted some, and have promised more, once I speak to our church leader, who has already said he will giveus some...

[squealpiggy]

The bible is completely contradictory, moreso than anything else I have ever read. It's crazy, for example

Lev 20:29
and
Gen 19:4-8

Hmm...

[almighty_bob]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
The bible is completely contradictory, moreso than anything else I have ever read. It's crazy, for example

Lev 20:29
and
Gen 19:4-8

Hmm...

Leviticus 20 goes to verse 27...

and Genisis 19 v 4-8 tells of the evils of men; and how they attempted to rape servants of the lord...

please check your references...

[Ouroboros]

The trouble with religion is that, for example, not one Christian I have ever known (or will) goes by all the rules i the bible. How can they justify going by some, and beleiving some stuff they read in the bible, but just ignoring others? Such as leviticus, it's filled with stuff like "shelfish is an abomination", and you cannot wear clothes made of two different fabrics or something. No one ever follows those. That's part of the reason that I am a complete Atheist.

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by Dumples
That's part of the reason that I am a complete Atheist.

so you have established that the bible needs interpretation. Very good.

That's no basis to become an atheist however. I'm not saying you shouldn't be an atheist, but there are better reasons than this.

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted by PoofBird
so you have established that the bible needs interpretation. Very good.

That's no basis to become an atheist however. I'm not saying you shouldn't be an atheist, but there are better reasons than this.
That's why I said ONE of the reasons. Too many to go into here.

[squealpiggy]

My reference was the Bible, I'll check the version when I get home. It basically said "Do not prostitute thy daughters". The quote in Genesis is in reference to the men who wished to gang rape another group of men that had taken refuge in Lot's house and Lot very generously offered the baying mob his virgin daughters instead. Nice.
Interesting passage in Leviticus 21:18-20

No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;
19 no man with a crippled foot or hand,
20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles.

Which is quite at odds with the majority of the Gospels.

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by squealpiggy

Which is quite at odds with the majority of the Gospels.

Good thing the Gospels are more important to Christians.

[squealpiggy]

Technically yes, but unfortunately you get a certain type Christian who thinks that the gospels are more important except in regards to the following:

Discipline of children
Homosexuality
Treatment of criminals
Homosexuality
Avoiding sick people
Homosexuality
Not casting the first stone
Homosexuality
and
Homosexuality.

Why are they so hung up on homosexuality? Was St Paul in denial?

Oh I checked that passage, Lev 19:29, not Lev 20, the page was laid out in a funny way.