Animal cruelty – horrible or horribly hilarious?

[felp]

Forgive me if this is an old topic (hey I’m new!) but I thought I’d start a little debate to see if there are people out there who think animals deserve any less of a life because they are not human.

Now before I start my points, i'd like to say that I am a hunter, and I eat meat, however I would prefer to hunt my food to eat rather then buy something that was raised for the slaughter house, that said though I simply cant do that as i live in a city, and if i went around shooting things, well I would become the hunted in some odd Hollywood type movie that i'd watch but end up hating.... Anyway back to the topic.


I am one of those people that will laugh when the annoying guy dies in a movie but be very silent and possibly upset when the pet dies. The reason for this is that I've come to respect animals, and if anything humans (in large numbers) loose my respect (though I also believe that every human has something positive to contribute and is in some way my better at something). I think that when I stop my car in the middle of the road during rush hour to help the poor possum frozen with fear in the middle of the road, i should if anything be cheered, but instead i get yelled at by some one that feels being on time to whatever is more important then that possum's life.
In comedy we often see animals being treated poorly, and whilst it may (if it's not too violent) bring a slight smile to m face, I can’t help but remember those little kids that threw rocks and the neighbourhood stray. Frankly i'd like nothing more then to throw rocks at them!
The worst part about having my mentality is that you are labelled some kind of hippy (i kinda am but that's not the point) and any points you raise about animal welfare are dismissed as not as important as economical issues and other such things.
If there are people here that feel an animal suffering is probably funny and nothing else, or you simply couldn't care, please i'd like to hear some arguments as to why you'd think that way, although I understand it may very well be psychological and so forth (making arguments harder unless you are doing psych - which I am not).... I will stop typing now before i start to ramble on again... oh it's kinda too late, but yes stop typing ..... NOW.

[squealpiggy]

I see the really militant animal rights activists as being slightly offensive in a world where people are still tortured for their political beliefs, put to death or mutilated for stealing food to prevent themselves from starving, imprisoned in pestilent and brutal conditions for the most trivial of crimes and massacred by armies or militia simpy for being there.

Cruelty to animals isn't nice but until we end cruelty to our own species I think it's a bit rich to concern ourselfves too much with animal welfare.

As far as eating meat etc I don't see any moral issue, it's all food chain to me, but I try and eat free range goods because it is better quality.

[almighty_bob]

erm... yer...
its kinda hard to debate when you see and largely agree with where the person is coming from...

[William Wallace]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
I see the really militant animal rights activists as being slightly offensive in a world where people are still tortured for their political beliefs, put to death or mutilated for stealing food to prevent themselves from starving, imprisoned in pestilent and brutal conditions for the most trivial of crimes and massacred by armies or militia simpy for being there.

Cruelty to animals isn't nice but until we end cruelty to our own species I think it's a bit rich to concern ourselfves too much with animal welfare.

As far as eating meat etc I don't see any moral issue, it's all food chain to me, but I try and eat free range goods because it is better quality.


"Xactly. We need to focus on Human first. Then animals.
Besides, there is a massive problem with cats and dogs and many other *Cute* animals. They are destoying the wildlife that's important. Possum are vermin and are ovverunning and spreading disease. Rodents are detroying everything in sight.

The animals that need to to be taken care of are being ignored.

[almighty_bob]

hmmm, difficult for me to argue this; i'm kind of being a wuss and agreeing with all of you...

[squealpiggy]

Another thing: Raccons are bleeding massive ugly things that get into people's garages and should be culled.

In Canada you apparently need to get in a humane exterminator if you get raccoons in your garage. It's againts the law to, say, kill em with a sword.

[almighty_bob]

Some people say that about rabbits; that they are vermin and should be culled....

how would you like it if someone turned around and said; lets cull all squealpiggys???

saying that, you cannt love all creatures, not if they could, if out of hand, threaten the life of another species...

mmm... interesting debate this one...

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
Some people say that about rabbits; that they are vermin and should be culled....

how would you like it if someone turned around and said; lets cull all squealpiggys???

saying that, you cannt love all creatures, not if they could, if out of hand, threaten the life of another species...

mmm... interesting debate this one...

Squealpiggys would kick their arses!

Rabbits are vermin in Australia, but they're not vermin here. Rats are. Cull em. I'm not saying wipe them out, I'm saying substantially reduce their numbers.

[almighty_bob]

expalin why we need rats?

[squealpiggy]

we don't need rats. Cull em. But not until we've culled the pigeons. I love all of god's creatures. But not pigeons. Pigeons are old Nick's own!

[almighty_bob]

pigeons??? whats wrong with them??you try sitting in your garden listening to them gently cooing in the trees above...
very relaxing...

[William Wallace]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
Some people say that about rabbits; that they are vermin and should be culled....

how would you like it if someone turned around and said; lets cull all squealpiggys???

saying that, you cannt love all creatures, not if they could, if out of hand, threaten the life of another species...

mmm... interesting debate this one...

VHEMT.ORG "May we live long and Die Out" (http://vhemt.org/)

Sure they should cull SquealPiggys. They should cull William Wallaces, Bobs, Weebls, Dr. electros, Norbs, Skoos, Pinkerbells, Hydralisks, Ashs, and all else.

Bob, it's also relaxing to have a mudcap from Pigeon Sh!t when you're sitting below them too.

EDIT: If you ask me very nice I'll cull myself with my claymore.

[almighty_bob]

whatever floats your boat WW...

[Fruiterian]

Simply put, we fucked up the ecosystem already. We fucked up the food chains, everything. When domestication started, when technology started, which goes back 10,000 years or so, that was when we fucked up everything.

I've seriously considering becoming a vegetarian at some point in my future. I don't object to hunting: as long as you use the whole thing, take only what you need, be considerate of what you shoot bla bla bla and preferably with something other than a gun. I don't always object to animal hide either, but too much of it comes from fur farms and such.

I don't like guns. I have reasons but that's for another topic.

The way that they treat animals in slaughterhouses and such is horrific. I read a little bit of Fast Food Nation and it has some bits on slaughterhouses and such. In addition, the way that they treat their employees is horrific.

As for animal abuse, no. If you're doing it just for the thrill of the kill/pain, stop it. It's inconsiderate of the animal's life.

We're animals too. Just by some stroke of luck we became the dominant species and are pushing towards overpopulation. We're destroying our own world.

I'm still pissed that Bush didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. The US is one of the biggest industrial countries in the world, we're accounted for more pollution, more oil use, all that shit, but we're not doing anything about it. It's for the worse.

Animals depend on the environment, and the environment depends on the animals. 'nother reason to preserve both. Ecology and all that wonderful stuff.

I could get into a far longer rant about this, but I won't.

Simply put, sadistic abuse of any sort, on any sort of animal (including humans) is wrong in my eyes.

[almighty_bob]

:notworthy

well spoken dude

[Fruiterian]

I'm FEMALE. 'kay? ^_^ Need to put that somewhere.

[felp]

yes there is a problem with over-run species, but that's where hunter's like myself come in.
Frankly anything in nature that's now rooted is due to humans. We've stuffed up so much of this earth already that we need something to control our own population. Nature has this method of control for us. It's our instinct to miss-trust and be agressive towards one another. The best population controls for the human race have realistically been war. Whilst I don't support killing (with the exception of hunting), I understand it's need.
Just because we humans refuse to help one another, doesn't mean we should therefore ignore animal welfare. I personaly belive a human has no more rights then the beever you just killed in your garage... Although if beevers are a huge problem (as in not an indiginous species) then it is acceptable.
If everything was left as is, and humans lived harmouniously with nature, just as the aboriginals of Australia did, then there would be less conflict amoungst ourselves, there would be plenty of food and there would be no vermin out killing indiginous wildlife. I know that would never and is never going to happen, but still, as a human surely you feel responsible for having to kill that beever in your garage, for having to have that possum killed, surely you understand that if it wasnt for YOU it would never have had to die.


---edit
I should add the previous 2 or 3 posts were done as i was typing this (i left the computer for a tick) and that by hunting i mean hunt only to EAT nothing more nothing less, I always eat what I hunt, be it rabbit or quale or anything, I actually object to other forms of hunting unless it is sorely needed for numbers control

[almighty_bob]

looks like we are all pretty like minded on this issue....
animals have rights as well!!
population control through war... i've heard that before; is it a consipircy theory we are dreaming up here, or is it a dream???

<soz; correct to; dudette... :) happy kay?>

[Fruiterian]

There was a thread a while ago that dealt with the overpopulation of the world. I think it got deleted, though. Too bad: it was a nice discussion too.

One of my points in there was that we drove ourselves into overpopulation too: think of medical care for a second. Think of genetic diseases that we have overcome. Think of how it doesn't matter if you're strong or weak and you get sick: depending on what you have, you still have a chance at surviving no matter how debilitating the disease might be.

As for hunting, we are omnivores. Simple as that. If we actually use everything, not wasteful, as I said before, I don't mind it. But I still don't like guns.

[almighty_bob]

whats your beef with guns??
do you mean as in all guns, hunting guns... etc.
where u chillin'?
in the US or elsewhere?

[William Wallace]

Not many females like guns. Strange.

I made the topic about Humans And Earth.

[almighty_bob]

cool; some girls do like guns, they wish that they were boys and try and be soldiers....
its not big and its not clever, alot like a dyslex pigmy... (sorry random comment...)
anyhows babe, whats your beef with guns???
or should we set up a new thread?
what is Fruitarian's beef with guns???

[felp]

if she has a problem with guns, she has a problem with guns, unless she wants to elaberate quite pokin her, as for what you said before about my war = population control, it;s not a conspiresy, there is no1 out there consipering with someone else to start a war to tone down the population! i meant we fight eachother for the same reason lemmings jump off a cliff.


---edit
why oh why did i spell guns with an e?

[squealpiggy]

lemmings don't jump off cliffs. They go on mass migrations and sometimes some of them end up in the sea and drown but that's because they migrate in the thousands and the ones at the cack can't see the front.

I think that the fact that we have debates about animal's rights, about the rights of other species says a ot for our species. But I have to say that I don't overly care about animals too much. If I saw someone torturing an animal then I would intervene because there is something weird about wanting to cause unnecessary suffering but it's things like fox hunting: I don't care about foxes. I don't like the arguments for fox hunting, I think they're bulshit, and I think that the idea of a load of fauntleroys and haw haws trying to justify their bloodletting to be a bit offensive, especially as the Lords had no objections when working class bloodsports like dog fighting and cock fighting were banned. It's a class thing.

But more than animals I am concerned about human rights, that female genital mutilation goes on in the world, sometimeds even in this country (though more usually the girls are shipped overseas for the procedure), that people are shipped over here illegally to the profit of criminal gangs all because of our stupid immigration system and are then forced into illegal work like sweatshops or prostitution when they find that the streets aren't actually paved with gold. I am concerned that those people have such terrible lives elsewhere that they feel that a dangerous journey being smuggled in sealed container for thousands of miles or clinging to the side of a Eurostar train is a worthwhile risk. And then you have some eton educated Tory ponce challenging Labour on Britain being seen as a "soft touch". Hate it.

As for vegetarianism, if you wish to do it then it should be for the right reasons. Vegetarianism for moral reasons is a bit pointless, if you feel strongly enough about animal cruelty you should go vegan, as many of the processes for producing milk are done under factory conditions and even free range animals are kept in a constant state of lactation to keep them from producing milk.

I have a couple of friends that are vegan, they're happy enough, notmarcie is one of them, and if you're looking to go vegan she would be more than happy to help you out with it.

[felp]

no way (going veggie) I belive humans are carniviours and therefore feel no shame in hunting and eating animals - it's the process of life.. the meat process mmm. I can see what you are saying with human rights, and there was a time when i felt the same, but right now i have to say that i feel neither is more important then the other. For example in Spain they have a very short grey hound racing season, so instead of feeding the dogs when they're not racing, they kill them. If the dogs had a poor season they kill them very slowly - through hanging, but not the merciful hanging where the neck gets broken, no that's the treatment of a winning dog, the loosers get strung up carefully and tied down so that they choke to death. Has any1 heard the sound of a grey hound being hung slowly? I have. It's not something i wish to ever hear again, the sound alone still brings shudders down my spine. As for other countries, somewhere in asia (i forget where) you can go down the market and get a dog or cat tourtured right in frount of you (for a price) and then you are given the meat to enjoy later.
Here we ahve pounds where if a stray is not claimed by someone they are killed, yes it's arguably merciful, and yes they should be rounded up as they are not indiginous, but surely they shouldnt simply be killed then thrown away. What about exporting them to that place in Africa (again I forget these things) that's currently in a state of crisis over food, at least then the animals are treated with a little respect, not killed and then thrown into the furnace with the rest of the trash.
But this is all just my oppinion and I understand that for many people human rights come first, it is understandable, but why draw the line there, why not say then that my country comes first, why not then go on to say that my race comes first, why not then say that my gender comes first. Or better yet, why discriminate at all? just an idea.

[crazy mofo]

Originally posted by Fruiterian
Simply put, we fucked up the ecosystem already. We fucked up the food chains, everything. When domestication started, when technology started, which goes back 10,000 years or so, that was when we fucked up everything.

I've seriously considering becoming a vegetarian at some point in my future. I don't object to hunting: as long as you use the whole thing, take only what you need, be considerate of what you shoot bla bla bla and preferably with something other than a gun. I don't always object to animal hide either, but too much of it comes from fur farms and such.

I don't like guns. I have reasons but that's for another topic.

The way that they treat animals in slaughterhouses and such is horrific. I read a little bit of Fast Food Nation and it has some bits on slaughterhouses and such. In addition, the way that they treat their employees is horrific.

As for animal abuse, no. If you're doing it just for the thrill of the kill/pain, stop it. It's inconsiderate of the animal's life.

We're animals too. Just by some stroke of luck we became the dominant species and are pushing towards overpopulation. We're destroying our own world.

I'm still pissed that Bush didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. The US is one of the biggest industrial countries in the world, we're accounted for more pollution, more oil use, all that shit, but we're not doing anything about it. It's for the worse.

Animals depend on the environment, and the environment depends on the animals. 'nother reason to preserve both. Ecology and all that wonderful stuff.

I could get into a far longer rant about this, but I won't.

Simply put, sadistic abuse of any sort, on any sort of animal (including humans) is wrong in my eyes.

Yeah humans own. :cool:

[sjaak]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Another thing: Raccons are bleeding massive ugly things that get into people's garages and should be culled.

In Canada you apparently need to get in a humane exterminator if you get raccoons in your garage. It's againts the law to, say, kill em with a sword.

I always wonder about laws like that...same thing with laws against anal sex..(sry children, you'd find out in a few years anyway)
like who's gonna notice? it's YOUR garage isn't it? not like anyone has the right to go and look if you might be killing raccoons that sneaked in..therefore I think we should have a huge vote and legalize the killing of raccoons with, say, swords ;)

[felp]

only if we can also kill peopl with say - swords :p

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by felp
i meant we fight eachother for the same reason lemmings jump off a cliff.



In 1958, Disney awed the world with the beautiful nature film White Wilderness.
It featured, for the first time, mass migration of lemmings. The world was a better place, now we knew how does creatures act in the wild, jumping off cliffs and all.

and now, the facts:
The film was shot in Alberta, Canada, which is not the natural habitat of lemmings. Also, there are no proper cliffs.
The filmer James Algar had purchased a small number of lemmings, that were caught by Inuit children, transported them to the filmset, and made his film.

He created the idea of mass immigration, but never will you see more than 2 dozen animals in one shot. In the end, he transported the animals to a cliff, and drove them off.
They even had to throw some of them off, as they refused to jump.

It was great cinema. I mean: it works, mate! Beautiful photography.

There is no evidence that lemmings jump off cliffs willingly.
The rumour became popular fact, after Disney's misleading film.

[notmarcie]

I am a strict vegan I don't eat any animal products or wear leather wool silk or fur. I actually find the idea of dairy farming more repugnant than meat eating as it harms the cow and its calf on a long term basis .

I also care about human rights, all the ones on the list piggy posted. Caring about one doesn't exclude you from caring about the other, I think that challenging the right to torture human animals will lead to a questioning of the right to torture non human animals, and vice versa.

As far as world hunger goes, I think that veganism is a large step to solving the matter. I highly recommend Diet For A New America for more reading on veganism, health and world hunger. And Animal Liberation by Peter Singer for some intersting debates on the concept of animal rights.

I feel humans have a duty of care to each other as well as non human animals, and if they cannot treat a kiteen compassionately then how can they treat their political oppponent with compassion. The idea of animals as possessions is one I link with the concept of slavery and the percieved right to dominate women.

Urh this is rambling all over, finish work in 7 minutes and not entirely coherent.

Humans were omnivores (eat meat and flesh, carnivore meats only eats meat), but with the technology we have there is no need to rely on meat. I think that for all the banging on humans do about being the most evolved we seem to now be intent on not evolving any more , maybe to a stage where eating meat is not a necessity.

And yes I am more than happy to answer questions on veganism, share recipes etc so long as they are respectful.

[Magpie]

The Animal Liberation movement.

often assosiated with animal rights, wholly different concept.

Peter Singer- the founder, is a utilitarian and belives that NOTHING has rights, not animals, not people.

yet he encourages people to break up testing facilities.

because we're all equal right?

no.

he thinks that animal testing is wrong, not because it causes pain, because he see's animal pain as equal to humans.

his solution, test on Disabled Babies.

they suffer no more than animals, animals can be used for food or work where theese babies don't aid society at all. Also the babies have the same genetic code as people so will give more reliable results.


Nice concept no?

[squealpiggy]

I can recommend notmarcie's cooking! Superb!

The concept of funcionalist approaches to animal liberation is bizarre. Lab animals are bred for the lab, and what possible work can you put a white rat to?

[almighty_bob]

anyone want to donate a baby brother or sister?
or even, for parents, a kid???

thought not

orphange?

try one and see what they say Magpie

[notmarcie]

I absolutely despise the ALF, who to my mind are thugs looking for an emotive issue to justify their penchant for explosives and arson. A large number of them have prior convictions for GBH and assault unrelated to animal lib matters. Ingrid Newkirk is an idiot and having called her such I am no longer welcome in local animal rights circles. The ALF have also carried out some real no brainer acts like breakin into the sterile breeding facility of Newchurch Guinea Pigs Farm. They didn't take the guinea pigs off site, they just broke in, rendering the place unsterile and the animals had to be destroyed. Nice going boy wonders.

I used to be fairly active in the animal rights game. I used to going hunt sabbing and saw some pretty horrific stuff. I also have attend lab demos and demos outside breeding faciliites. I do not agree with groups like SHAC (doley scum who drift from one animal rights cause to the next), but I am highly uncomfortable about the concept of most animal testing. I am grateful that LD50 is no longer an allowed form of testing for toxicity. But I also feel that animal tesing in largely hit and miss, what is toxic for one species is not for another, eg paracetamol is toxic for cats even in small doses (ask any vet) but not for humans, I have other cases but cannot site exact sources right now and don't wish to dig out my old boxes of stuff. My high school chemistry teacher was invovled in the development of beta blockers and told me that whilst they have a sedative effect on human heart beats they can actually speed up the heart beats of other animals (various rodents I think). Translating data from animal research to find safe quantities for humans is an inexact science.
Primates are infected with SIV and drugs tested, one flaw is primates don't die of simian AIDS, so although the testing can show that a drug keeps the cell count high it cannot show that the drug will keep AIDS patients alive longer as there is no comparable information.
Another interesting fact is that cigarettes do not causes cancer in rats, which is one of the ley reasons companies like Phillip Morris were able to deny that cigarettes can cause lung cancer because their lab testing said it didnt.
As with any science that relies on funding from private companies results are often skewed to give the desired findings so that funding can continue. Thalidomide caused birth defects in rabbits, but as it was only in a small number the results were ignored. The effects of thalidomide on human foetuses is well known. Animal testing is unreliable, but right now there is no viable alternative. That doesn't mean we shouldn't look for one, and thats why I support Dr Hadwens Trust which researches alternatives to animal tests.
Animal testing whilst it continues must be strictly controlled. I support the development of new drugs, but lab conditions must improve. The reason I oppose(d?) Huntingdon Life Sciences is that their lab technicians have on several different occasions been found to neglect or abuse animals. This has been observed over several years, the main outcry came after a Channel 4 documentary called 'A Dogs Life'. It might seem bizzare to ask that animals undergoing or about to undergo a testing process be treated humanely and have their pens cleaned out and fresh water provided every day, but on the most basic level it makes sense to have dogs in prime health in order to gife the optimum results. In 'A Dogs Life' a lab tech was filmed punching a beagle puppy, now if that dog should have haemorraged how is one to know if it is a result of maltreatement or the substance being tested on it ?



Singer didn't exactly start the animal lib movement, he was the first one to write about it from a philosophical level. And he didn't exactly advocate testing on severly disabled babies, he believed that the level of self awareness of animals is equal to that of severly disabled babies, and if we are prepared to test on animals then we should also consider testing on babies. His book does raising interesting concepts though if you are fairly open minded when you read it and makes you question a little. Its not a guideline for how we should liberate animals.

I'd also recommened http://www.animalrights.org for a website that works to debunk a lot of myths propogated by the animal rights community.

[felp]

PoofBird and someone else, if your lemmings facts are correct (which i have no reason to think otherwise, as untill last year i refused to belive they did that, and thought it would be too dang odd for that to actually happen nature wise) then you clear a lot up for myself AND i therefore acknowledge that I used a bad example. In other words "I stand corrected" even though i'm sitting right now and so forth.

[Cookies]

Yes disabled babies are disabled but they can still grow up and be loved and live okay lives, i think that is sick that someone could consider doing that. And feel free to correct me as i know nearly nothing about animal testing apart that i think it is wrong, but 'The body shop' for instance don't test their products on animals so why can't other companies? Is it essential for them to do so??

[notmarcie]

Petere Singer didn't advocate testing on babies, his opoint was if we test on animals becasue we consider them 'dumb animals' then why not test of prououndly disabled babies who have the same intellectuall capacity of a beagle or a lab rat ? Because we regard human beings as a higher form of life, even though a severly handicapped baby might have no capacity for reasoning. It is the capacity for reasoning and 'higher thought processes' which is often used as proof human beings are a more developed life form. Singer asks that if we are comfortable to test on something which we regard as having a low mental capacity then why not test on babies ?

[goody 2 shoos]

k... animal cruelty is mean but, come on, seeing a fat animal being swished around in a pillowcase is funny and if ya pour water on a cat's tail your gonna get some laughs
the osburne type of animal cruelty, you know what i mean, like with jack and lola, jack may explode lola's face and jump him off the beanbag chair, but jack still loves lola, now doesn't he?
animals i have been cruel to are my cat and dog, and that is mostly verbal, with the occasional pulling of hair and squeezing their ribs, but they don't care, because i'm the only person that feeds them, i am their provider, i am their mother, and no matter how much they may be hurt, bruised or brainwashed... they will bow down to me.
but animal like, starvation, those people are just f***ers,
k:evil: :nana: :mad: :twisted: :D :D :D :D

[-Yami-Kitty-]

...I didn't take the time to read all the posts...

But some of you are saying how humans should always come first.. then animals...

also backing up this reason, some say animals are hurting the enviroment?

LMMFAO!

And humans aren't?

We are the worse god damn species out there, I mean come on...

Anyways, I love animals... well.. no.. actually I just love cats.

I shot a guy... with a paint ball gun, really hard in the crotch and then the leg for chasing my cat into a sewer, and.. that was kind of pointless...

But animal abuse is really pointless and stupid, unless its just some silly shit, you know like.. playing around or something... >_>! (where an animal isn't really being hurt at all) O_o

Recently some random person sent me this thing, like how animals are being horribly treated before death (like in slaughter houses, for our food)

It's obvious that farmers and people aren't suppose to pamper livestock or anything, but the stuff on this short video are absolutely inhumane and unecissary.

The reason I'm so strong on this subject is because, I just care a lot for animals....

o_O!

And this was all pointless.. anyone want to see the video.. click the link below..


http://calendars.lawrence.com/videos/132/