shoplifting

[felp]

(as always if this has already been a topic feel free to delete it and i apologise)

Okay before I start let my lay down some ground rules if i may - number 1 please when you are posting don't be harsh towards someoone else. If you don't agree with the view offer constructive critticism, no crude remarks. Also will you please justify (back up) any points you make. Don't just say "it/you/he/she sucks" say why you think this and what evidence you may have to prove it. Also if you could please right down where you heard any facts you enter - especially statistics as otherwise they have no credit and could be made up on the spot. Whilst i can in no way enforce these rules to this debate, i really hop you all stick by them, if you dont want to then please just DONT post, thanks. Now to the topic:

Personally I don't like shoplifting, although I admit i once did this, at Games Workshop (the place that sells Warhammer) i did this because I felt everything was overcharged and what i had bought already there should cover a few extra things, so some friends and I helped ourselves. I still feel bad.
However I can fully understand some1 stealing for reasons such as this, or say they dont want to pay for that Gap shirt because they dont want to give money to it, then whilst i don't agree with stealing, I can understand their position.
What I think is inexcusable is when someone steals from shops that only have 1 owner, are part of no chain and are struggeling to get by in this corperate world. Stealing from them IS stealing from the poor and i don't like it. However recently i found out a friend of mine did just that. I can honestly say if I were there when he did it. I would have turned him in, mainly because i know just how much that shop struggles.
People dont seem to realise that if it's a private 1 owner shop then stealing those shoes could mean the owner cant make the shops rent that month, it really does get that hard to sustain a successful shop when you are compeating with a corperate machiene (excuse the spelling).
But what do you people think? Is shoplifiting a victimless crime? is it acceptable? Would you have turned in my friend(assuming he was your friend)?

Oh I should note that i don't mean good friend, he's some1 i've only met this year and find "okay". None of my good friends agree with what he did, nor would they do it :)

[freddiestarfish]

its againts the law, and shouldnt be done really
its not a victimless crime, and how would you fee;l if you had spent loads on opening a shop, and you got a load of stuff nicked from your shop?
even if it didnt cost very much, it would make you feel violated.
and im not a goody2shoes, i just dont think shoplifting is a good idea

[Spoo]

I met a 'professional' shoplifter once. It was on a train from Banbury to Birmingham. She pretended to have had her purse stolen to blag the train ride. She told me how she travelled the country stealing clothers from places like Marks and Spencers. She would then unpick the seams or damage them so that she could return them for money. She was well dressed (she said this helped in making people less suspicous) really nice and very inteligent. She actually managed to make a good living out of doing this everyday.

She did however say that she would only steal from big chain stores and not small independants. She honestly belived she was not doing anything wrong.

[squealpiggy]

The more theft occurs, the higher the store's insurance. As those costs increase the cost of their goods increases. So it isn't the rich chains that pay for shoplifters, it's everyone who shops there. Plus why the hell should comeone get something free that I have to pay for?

[Spoo]

Just as a side point how do people feel about software piracy?

"Plus why the hell should comeone get something free that I have to pay for?"

"its againts the law, and shouldnt be done really"

Both those statements can still apply.

Is stealing the same whatever you steal or do you have to physically take something from a shop for it to be wrong?

[squealpiggy]

software piracy is not the same as theft. |Theft deprives the owner of the goods and therefore drives up prices, piracy does not.

[Spoo]

But it is still illegal. Do why decide which laws we abide by based on our own personal morals or ethics? Do people find software piracy acceptable because its low risk compared to trying to shoplift something?

[squealpiggy]

Partly yes, but also partly because it is more acceptable. Theft is not acceptable, copyright infringement is. There is also an element of "try before you buy" with copyright infringement, whereas a theif has already got it and would not buy. However copyright infringement for personal use is in a different league than copyright infringement for profit. If someone copied software and sold it I would be concerned.

[felp]

copy right infrigment or software piracy is a form of theift. You STEAL the product because you have a copy of it you haven't paid for, realistically there is little difference between you and the shoplifter, and aside from popular belife software piracy does in fact add to cost of the product. The company which makes the product will always (unless they are a small or inexperienced company) add on price to compensate for losses as a result of piracy. It's something CD retailers admit to, something Microsoft admits to, something video retailers have admitted to etc. Don't kid yourself, just because more people do it, doesnt make it anyless of a crime.
That said however, i feel obaying something just because it is law is silly. I go by my own eithics and principals, and whilst this probably isn't the wisest of things for me to recomend, however i guess I do... Although I understand that this idea can backfire when someone has no morals or ethics.... i think i've backflipped on my head there... oh well.

[cliffhanger]

I know a lot of people that get on their high horse about piracy. For instance some people have pirate copies of music CDs which they have obtained for personal use not for selling and others criticise this when they have shelfloads of audio tapes and VHS video recording in their own house. People seem to think that recording off the TV and keeping it for ever or lending out the tape is not illegal. I don't know the subtleties of copyright law but I don't think it is legal to do this. Also, I think that everyone who grew up in the age of vinyl LPs has taped a friends record at some point or another. It is not possible to buy all the music you ever want as it's very expensive in the UK.

On a personal note I always buy originals of all my computer games and especially DVDs as I like the way my collection looks on my shelves. I hate a bunch of crappy looking photocopied covers or discs with scribbled writing on them. I also have a mate who has thousands of copies of everything. Music, DVDs, software but he never plays all the games he has because he came by them to easily. You can guarantee that if he paid £35 for a game that he would want to get the most out of it.

[Fruiterian]

big ass coporations are going to make money anyways. production costs for many things are rather low, especially with sweatshop labor and such (i don't support it however). they can make something for $10 and sell it for $50. it's a ripoff.

this applies to many industries, including the music industry: cd's are very cheap to make (consider the price of a plain old cd-r.) they're overcharging on those cds. it's the same with computer programs, slightly less so however, since quite a bit of work goes into some of them, with programming and modelling and such.

independent stores need more help though to combat the big ol' coporate monster. stealing from a coporation is like poking a giant rock; stealing from a small store is more along the lines of poking at a pile of dust.

horrible analogy, yes, i know.

[Spoo]

Originally posted by cliffhanger
[ People seem to think that recording off the TV and keeping it for ever or lending out the tape is not illegal. I don't know the subtleties of copyright law but I don't think it is legal to do this.
[/B]

You can keep something for two weeks if you tape it off TV. I dobut it has ever been enforced though.

[Ferret Pie]

Recording laws are stupid, i feel music and such should be free. Shoplifting is bad unless things are so unbeleivably overpriced it's ridiculous. Also many shops have security except the small, poor ones, which it is evil to rob.If someone isa too poor to clothe or feed themselves it is alright but if they just want to make money they are bad. Bad dealers and people who refuse to refund ought to be robbed, though not by me.Copying is perfectly alright as long as you dont sell loads or something, besides which who really cares, it's not like it harms anyone you know. Many pirate dvds can be dodgy though.

[Cookies]

Its not just the shop that suffers its the honest customers who actually buy the products. Students at our school and other local kids always stole from this local shop, thye would steal petty things like choclate bars and such. I never did this as i thought it was wrong and was frankly too scared i'd get caught, my mates did tho, i knew this was wrong but didnt look into it, i couldn't stop them. Afterwards the shop installed cameras which didnt help much, they got a security guard and then only allowed 2 students in at one time now everytime i go in there i get dirty looks and at one point no teenager was allowed in there, we suffered and the shop lost profit all because some fool doesn't want to pay for their sweets :mad:

[felp]

Originally posted by Ferret Pie
Recording laws are stupid, i feel music and such should be free. Shoplifting is bad unless things are so unbeleivably overpriced it's ridiculous. Also many shops have security except the small, poor ones, which it is evil to rob.If someone isa too poor to clothe or feed themselves it is alright but if they just want to make money they are bad. Bad dealers and people who refuse to refund ought to be robbed, though not by me.Copying is perfectly alright as long as you dont sell loads or something, besides which who really cares, it's not like it harms anyone you know. Many pirate dvds can be dodgy though.

that actually depends. What if it's a local band? how can they pay for their instruments to continue providing great music? You have to support your local music scene/favourite band or whatever, because they actually DO suffer. Especially here, musical instruments cost way more then they should, power cost more then it should, venues cost more then they should, and fewer and fewer venues are allowing live music thanks to complaining old diddies that live near the pub/venue.

Yes, some bands can afford to give free music, but that's just plain rare and basically for every track of a small band you've ripped but dont buy and don't intend to buy is another track they can no longer aford to make.

[smiley clown]

If recording of the TV was illegal then VCRs wouldn't have the record option.
Personally I think there is nothing wrong with mates copying CDs for eachother because the industry do overcharge for CDs they know are going to sell. Also I think there is nothing wrong with making compilation CDs for friends of your favourite tracks as long as you're not selling it for money, or only enough to pay for the disc.
On shoplifting, I think it is wrong because it is still taking things that don't belong to you.