People

[ZekeyLizard]

I am a man of double mind. I like to hang out in public, I like helping little old ladies across the street. I like the world and I like pie.
But I also can't stand people. They are sick cruel creatures who still seem to have not mentally evolved in any sort of fashion whatsoever. What brings joy like that of hurting those smaller and weaker than you? Why are we a race that think we are superior just cuz we can crash a probe onto Jupiter?


People.
Are we lovely creatures?
Or just war-mongering beasts whose lives are defined by Daytime Talk Shows?

[Fanta]

PEOPLE SUCK. THERE MUST BE A CULL

[jigi]

People are all equal by their power of distruction, in the state of nature, where there are no rules, rulers and law keepers, the situation is of dog eat dog, man eat man, people are cruel to eachother and have the same ability to kill/harm each other...
However, people are smart enough to understand that they need a leader, a law keeper, because they want to prosper and evolv without worrying about their own safety, so they come into a social contract and by choosing a common sovereign and common laws. (Based on the writings of Thomas Hobbes in the Leviathan)
So are we good or are we evil...I don't know, my entire being is ambiguous, so I can't decide on anything...I know that every person possesses some evil and a lot of good inside...everyone just chooses to use those qualities in a different way...:)

[Fanta]

you view people too highly. i personally think we should set my plan in action

[Spoo]

Firstly, Fanta your attempts to provoke and wind people up are really getting very tiresome.

I think this can be a good subject to discuss and one i find myself thinking about a great deal.

I suppose to discuss it properly we really need to make some definitions. What do we mean by 'people'? Does it mean the entire human race? Does it mean the society of a particular country? Does it mean 'western' society?

When i personally find myself thinking "people suck" i am probably refering to a trend in British popular culture and society. By popular culture i am refering to, for example, current trends in fashion, popular music, televison and politics. And also the trends in consumerism. It would take far to long to go into depth about each one of these areas but it seems to me that as culture becomes ever more influenced by consumerism it becomes more bland.

Early therorists warned of the dangers of mass society and popular culture verses high culture. Also of the dangers of Americanisation.

I would like to discuss this further if anyone else does. Im a bit wary of typing more only to find no-one replys!

[PoofBird]

Individual people are capable of great love and sacrifice.

Groups of people (but also in some cases indivuals) can be terribly cruel.

I believe that there is no such thing as evil. Every single one of us is, in given circumstances, capable of murder, rape and torture.
The evidence is all around us. Soldiers, in the heat of battle, often commit attrocities. Regardless of what side they are on and what doctrine they are defending, violence brings out the worst in men.

I don't think people suck, though. It is both scary and comforting that we all have good and evil within us.

I agree with spooneh: the mindlessnes of many people is frightening. The tendencies of people to insist on having opinions on important subjects without going through the trouble of informing themselves might be related (I think it is) to the ignorant way a lot of people eat whatever chopped up fingerfood the corporations present them with.
I'm not boycotting anything commercial (I have a company myself) and I do not boycot anything marketed by big corporations.
I do enough by knowing what I consume, and consider the alternatives.

A popular dutch comedian once said about people and politics: "Look, that guy has an opinion! Let's follow him!"
Today's politics is characterized by people voting for the guy with the loudest voice, the biggest mouth or the most money to let his voice be heard.
They win, because the average joe will not take the trouble to go and find alternatives. He'll go with the one presented to him.
Same goes with popular culture: people buy the album that is marketed by the majors, eating the food that is sold at every corner of the world by the same multinational, and wearing the clothes that is marketed by multimiljonair sports-heroes and stitched together by child labour.
Why? They do not wish to trouble themselves with finding out alternatives. And that's what sucks about people.

I don't really mind people voting Bush, wearing Nike, drinking coke, listening Britney.
But have you thought it through? At all? Or do you do it, because it's the easy way?

[Spoo]

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Poofbird. The worst thing about people is that en-mass they will take the path of least resistance. Always with the quicker easier option. Thats what creates and enforces dominant paradigms and dominant ideoligies.

I am guilty myself of the taking the easy option. Its cheaper and easier to shop in a big chain supermarket for example. My working life doesnt allow me the time to say, grow my own food.
I can however choose to avoid Starbuck, MacDonalds, Burger King etc... The important thing is to be aware that there are alternatives to the dominant and the standard, even if the pressures of modern life don't give you the room to explore them.

[ZekeyLizard]

Good points all.
People are sheep, once they're in too large of a group Independent thought almost dissapears. Just look at the current state of Government in the world these days. Makes me sick.

[Spoo]

Can you blame people for being 'sheep'? Doesn't in make sense to do things the easiest way possible? Isn't that a part of human nature? The reason we invent things is normaly to solve a problem in the easiest way possible. Is it a key part of human nature?

If this is so then perhaps we should lay blame with the people who abuse the fact that people are 'sheep'?

That becomes difficult because you can't blame big corporations and governments because they too are made up of people. It is hard to argue either way.

When it comes down to it i suspect the majority of people are quite happy as part of a mass society. Following fashion or music trends give people an easy way of fitting in with other people.

We have to remember not to be too elitist.

Perhaps we should never have tried to generalise the billions of people on the planet into one big group we just call 'people'.

By nature and the way we have evolved we have developed the capabilites to all be indivdual. Maybe mass society and mass culture and communications are evolution's way of trying to smooth out some of that individuality?

Any thoughts?

[Fanta]

yes they can be blamed for being sheep. and soldiers in the heat of battle doing things like rape deserve to die (in my opinion) people are horrible. the world is fucking awful. can't we all just get along?

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Fanta
yes they can be blamed for being sheep. and soldiers in the heat of battle doing things like rape deserve to die (in my opinion) people are horrible. the world is fucking awful. can't we all just get along?

Just... stop.

[Fanta]

what it is. i am entitled to say i think the world is crap and that rapists should die. sorry to hear you love rapists but i don't. and why can't we just get along. you all have to be petty bastards infact you are a good example of that squealpiggy.

[cadex]

taken from a something awful thread.

For some reason, I was compelled to compare humans and trees. Take this tree over here for example. 800 years old, 150 feet tall, hasn't moved an inch in its life, never hurts anything else, only uses what it needs. Humans are so pathetic compared to this. We spend our short lives scrambling around the earth for food and shelter, creating needlessly elaborate technology to support our idiotic desires while taking more than we need and disrespecting every other form of life. We would all do well to spend a day living as that Western Hemlock.

the thread is all about this one guys mushroom trip (trip report)

there is sense in it.



edit - stfu fanta

[Wally]

PEOPLE:
Some people are nice..
and some people deserve to die and rot of pest..

How does this come?

The human.. is a herd animal.. and feeds himself... with allot of things.. in these herds opinions are quite the same.. so is the taste of music, and the flavour for fashion...

Like tribes that we had in the neandethal days.. some groups hate each other.. people of those groups can't get together that well... thats why they kill each other.....

This is extremely noticable at schools... like.... high schools.....

The behaviour... (something else in French) of a person allso depends on his, or it's, parents.. if they are homocidal canibals... then the chance is high that the child wants to be a LIBRERIAN!

Also... people don't know they should listen to wally.... otherwise their head may be removed and little pieces will be scattered all over the floor..... wich aint that very pretty..

[ZekeyLizard]

Fanta,

I'm sorry your "Massive Cull" topics havent worked out but stop trying to enrage folks here, kay?

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Fanta
what it is. i am entitled to say i think the world is crap and that rapists should die. sorry to hear you love rapists but i don't. and why can't we just get along. you all have to be petty bastards infact you are a good example of that squealpiggy.

Oh sorry, you carry on, it is big and clever to be a fascist.

Oh and soldiers seldom commit rape "in the heat of battle". They do commit massacres in the heat of battle, though there's no reason why you should care, as I am sure it would count towards the cull you keep blathering on about.

You are not telling us your opinions you are attempting to get a reaction and I am sorry to say that on me it seems to be working. If there was one person I have ever encountered that would provide ample evidence that a cull would help the human race then YOU would be it.

And back on topic there are some individuals who are great and some groups that are great. There are some groups that are terrible and there are some individuals that are terrible. And which group or which individual you are depends on whether or not you can think, and whether or not you can listen.

[Wally]

Well, I guess I am quite nice.. so if you got a problem.. don't care what it is.. lalalala, lalalala, how does it go again?
anyway... there are still people who are nice.. even tough they are hard to find... thats why I am not much with people... I prefere incects.... and spiders.... and other invertibrates.. they rule..

[Spoo]

i'm really dissapointed that a perfectly good thread has gone off the rails with random rubbish.

Anyway lets try and get back on topic:

By nature and the way we have evolved we have developed the capabilites to all be indivdual. Maybe mass society and mass culture and communications are evolution's way of trying to smooth out some of that individuality?

I posted that earlier. Does anyone have any thoughts on it? Are we perhaps Lossing our diversity and indviduality for a reason?

edit: there really is no point arguing with Fanta even if you are trying to be constructive. it just disrupts the thread and gives him what he wants.

[manny]

fantas been added to spammers list, so he can only post in cheesebin now.

also heres a quote that i feel is relevant, from my therapy sessions:


We are all fallible (inperfect) human beings.

All humans are equal in their humanity, but unequal in their aspects. eg. 'I have some superior skills but I'm not superior as a person.'

[Dr-Electro]

No, that is not me in the quote. It is a Sean Connery character. I thought he was great.

On occasion, when I am in a joking or spiteful mood, I will say that the human race needs to be culled. I am including 3D self as a part of that race. We all have our moments when we are at less than our best. We experience times of low blood sugar, high frustration levels, deep depressions and mood swings. Any and all of these things in any combination can put us off our disposition. Therein lies the crux of what Poofbird and Spooneh are saying.

I am an individual. On any given day I can be a saint or I can be Satan. I am capable of great good deeds and I am capable of base heinous atrocities. I usually land somewhere near the middle. As a warrior in the Jungles of Southeast Asia, I did my fair share of killing. I am not proud of it, but I am alive and they are not. I apologize to their spirits and to God in my prayers every day and every night and every time I think of it. May God have mercy on my soul. If you don't believe in God as I do, forgive me for offending you by bringing it up. It is a major part of who and what I am.

In the Jungles of Southeast Asia, when not in the heat of pitched battle, I fed the children, gave to the needy, respected authroity and my elders. I respected the Earth and tried to avoid damaging it any more than was absolutely necessary.

Now, I am as charitable as I can afford to be. I am kind and nonviolent. I am passive and peaceful, unless physically provoked into self defense.

That said, there are people who push all my buttons and pull my trigger. I am not proud of reacting to those people any more than I am proud of having been an efficient, deadly warrior. It is me.

I have seen a decline in manners, a decline in morals, a ecline in decency in general among the population I deal with on a daily basis. Today's kids seem to be blissfully unaware of manners or ettiquette even in the most general terms. They almost never show any adult any respect at all any more.

I am not condemning all children, for there are those shining examples who still behave properly and observe ettiquette. The majority will walk directly into the path of an oncoming vehicle, regardless of size, proximity or velocity and expect said vehicle to stop on a dime to avoid running over the little moron. They will step on the toes of any adult they meet in the halls at school, run directly into little old ladies at the supermarket, knock down pregnant women and defenseless toddlers at the mall, steal what they want, destroy other people's property without remorse and generally give humanity a bad name.

If the majority of the youth where you live are diffeent, please feel free to say so. Just don't accuse me of being biased or being wrong in telling what I have observed personally. I have watched the trends and seen the changes. My generation was reared to respect our elders, not talk back and never ever show open disrespect to any adult. What we did to each other was our own affair. Now, the teenagers that I observe on a daily basis just don't seem to give a rat's ass what any adult thinks or has to say or do. I have been left standing in the halls with heavy loads begging the little darlings to please let me through. I have been laughed at and even cursed at. Yes, there are consequences. Yes, I write discipline referrals and turn them in. No, the little farts don't care about discipline referrals. They don't care about discipline at all in any form.

I hope that there are other places in the world where older people are not treated with scorn and disdain as we are here. Otherwise, start the culling. (not serious, just frustrated)

Those teenagers who buck the trend and treat other human beings with respect and kindness are a treasure. I remember every act of kindness, every gesture of helpfulness. I remember the student office worker who walked all the way to my office to pick up an envelope for the Vice Principal. She didn't have to do it, she could have behaved as the rest and let me walk the distance on my aching legs and feet. I praised her for her thoughtfulness.

So, to finally sum up, there is good and bad in each of us. It comes down to a matter of personal choice whether we are saints or devils. Most of us tend to fall soewhere nearer the middle, though there seems to be a trend to lean slightly toward the bad side. What is your personal choice today? Mine is to be forgiving and try to set a good example by being respectful to everyone else as much as I can.

Oh, my! That really was a ramble! I hope you didn't get too bored reading it.

[Smeagle]

Dr-Electro, that was wonderful :)

It's so true. I go to your bog-standard comprehensive school in a big city, and the behaviour of a lot of pupils lower down the school sickens me. They're offensive and rude, always starting fights and bullying, and they never seem to want to actually learn anything, just disrupt as many people as possible. Like you said there are perfectly pleasant pupils too, but unfotunately they are in the vast minority.

I moved up into the sixth form this year, and the amount of new respect you gain from the teachers (and some pupils) is amazing. After leaving all the 'rif-raf' behind the teachers can finally treat you as a real person and give you the attention needed to teach properly, rather than wasting all their time chasing up missing homeworks, stopping disruptive pupils, etc.

I do worry sometimes about what these people are going to achieve in life. Most of them leave school with only a handful of scraped GCSE's, don't go on into any form of higher education, and will probably go on to do the low-paid, dirty jobs that no-one else wants to do (if they get a job at all, that is). At the end of the day it's their business and I've got no right to try and change that, but their attitudes do often make me wonder what the human race is coming to.

I know this is a bit melodramatic, there are loads of great people out there, but I still can't help feeling that over time our society has vastly degenerated.

[ZekeyLizard]

Oh Electro, you've done it again;) ;) !!
You wise dude you.
I gave Fanta a lecture in the crap basket.


Anywho...

Back in Middle School, I was beaten up repeatedly by groups of girls, due to the fact that I was bigger then everyone else. Later I saw more acts of cruelty given to others.
Why do some people think it is wrong to be different?
Why do we treat those who are different with cruelty?

I never hurt anyone, and yet I was punished.
Why do people do such things. Its not bloodlust, it runs far deeper than the excitement of seeing a good fight. There is only one word for it: EVIL

[squealpiggy]

I do sometimes wonder if there was ever a time when people had respect, but I can remember being respectful as a child in a way that kids don't seem to be now. Maybe it hasn't really changed and the bad kids are the ones I notice now. But maybe not.

One thing I do know is that things like this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/3240873.stm) didn't seem to happen when I was younger. But I know that they could have because I was once threatened by a knife weilding kid from a rival school when I was 11.

Maybe it has stayed the same. Maybe it was different before I was born. Maybe it was all my fault!!

There are some people that I regard as being scum, despite myself. But the question for me is were they born scum or raised scum?

[PoofBird]

About teenagers:

young people today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."


Did poofbird say that? No, some other guy.

(Socrates (470-399 B. C.) )

[jigi]

about the whole "people acting like sheep" thing: reading some of your comments, made me think about the Platonic cave. A situtation when people are born and raised in a very dark cave, chained, so they can only face the inner wall of the cave. All they can see is the flickering of shadows cast by an artificial light of fire on the inner wall of a cave. This is the state of our being. Through our life we are being fed opinions of opinions, by those who don't know the truth. We are the worshipers of lies- media, celebrities, politics, you name it. Most of us follow these lies, because we are incapable of freeing our mind and looking at things as they are.
In his image of the cave, Plato tries to explain the form of good and its plave in human nderstanding. Plato claims that humans are by nature NOT equal. We have different characteristics, different talents, different abilities. Someone is born destined to be a peasent and some are born destined to rule.
So, yes, some of us to possess something different, something exeptionally good, that allows us to evolv above others, or something bad...
Some of us are strong, smart enough to free themselves from the herd, go out of the cave, and seek for the truth.
But unfortunately, most of us, still glued to a screen, trying to figure out who's a better pop star, Christina or Britney, and that's just sad, but overall, maybe that's what they're meant to be doing...:rolleyes:

[ZekeyLizard]

Christina and Britaney.
That brings up another good point.
Why do talentless hacks like them make money off of pretending to sing while other folks like: My father, Ralph Bakshi, Galileo, TinyTim, and others who actually work end their lives with nothing at all.
Damn you music corporations, damn you.

[squealpiggy]

Exciting and interesting music is difficult to put across to people in a way that would appeal to all markets. Britney and Christina are suitably bland to appeal to a large demographic. And Christina is the best out of those two ;)

Interesting cave analogy, though I prefer the Robert Anton Wilson theory in Prometheus Rising that people are at different stages of spiritual development, the first being response to stimulus, the second being religious tribalism, the third being religious enlightenment, the fourth is non-religious enlightenment, the fifth is realisationf of what enlightenment truly means etc etc. There are eight levels in all and reaching the eight level is kind of like the buddhist ideal of Nirvana and gives you the power over matter and therefore over death. His theory is that the more people make it to the higher levels the easier it is for everyone to attain those levels but few people at present are beyond level 3 and there are some tribalistic people (this doesn't mean tribalistic as in living in tribes, rather subscribing to tribes as an ideal) that are still knocking around and are scared of the unknown to the degree that they won't try for any other level.

Another nice analogy about people being afraid of change is especially applicable to anyone who works. Workplaces are notorious for being bad tribal places. Here goes:

In a lab there are seven monkeys in a room. The door to the room is up some metal steps. If a monkey goes near the steps it triggers an alarm and someone sprays the monkeys with a hose. Soon enough all the monkeys have been sprayed and know not to go near the stairs. Then someone comes in and takes one of the monkeys, replacing it with a new monkey. The new monkey wanders around and then starts to go towards the stairs. "No! You can't go near the stairs" cry the other monkeys, holding the new monkey back. Weeks later someone enters and takes another one of the old monkeys out and replaces him with a new one. The same thing happens as the new monkey starts to head towards the stairs. By this time the alarm has been disabled. eventually the people repeat this process until there are none of the original monkeys in the room. After they swap the final monkey and he starts to go near the stair they all go and grab him. "Noo! You can't go near the stairs!". "Why not?" asks the new monkey.

"Because that's the way it's always been."

[ZekeyLizard]

Thanks for that Snortlehog.


I tried the monkey experiment in my own house.
I will post photos once I regain control of my house from the apes

[squealpiggy]

Haha snortlehog! Regain your house! Hehehe that never happened to my version of the experiAAARGH! AAAH AACH! EEEK!! FOR THE LOVE OF AAAOOOWWWOOOOGH>>>> OH THE HUMANITY THEY'VE LEARNED TO USE WEAPONS!!! NOO AAAAARGH AAAAAAAH aach ach ack ...


.....

Another tale of monkeys about business.

Any corporation is like a tree full of monkeys. You have monkeys at all levels from the bottom to the top, some monkeys are climbing up, some are moving to different trees. If the monkeys at the top look down all they see is smiling faces. If the monkeys at the bottom look up all they see is a bunch of assholes.

Again though indicative of people.

[ZekeyLizard]

True!

But you forgot the slutty secretary monkeys that sleep their way to the top, as wrong as that sounds.

Thats what I hate about this "trickle-down" tax idea!
Its obvious corporations cant be trusted with cash...or people, with Nike having sweatshops full of starving children and whatnot.

p.s. Im on the balcony....the monkeys have taken the Gazebo.

[Dr-Electro]

"Democracy is the art of running the Circus from the monkey cage."

H. L. Mencken, 1923

I love all the monkey analogies, but that quote is one of my all time favorites. Mencken was an ace curmudgeon and I agree with 95% of what he wrote.

My monkey experiments all ended in the kitchen. While in the jungle, I learned to enjoy "monkey-on-a-stick" which is just barbecued monkey meat on a bamboo skewer. Monkey has a slightly porklike taste, but none of the fat.

One of the students came across as an icon of goodness today. She volunteered to run some papers to and from the front office for me simply because she wanted to be nice to an old man with bad legs. Little gestures like that make a bad day turn good in an instant. I also helped a class of French students with some Power Point presentations and got a standing ovation when I left the lab. I felt like Kurt Angle standing on the podium with two gold medals and the Star Spangled Banner playing in the background.

[ZekeyLizard]

Wow a menken and kurt angle reference!

BTW, have you noticed how fickle people are as well?

For example:

1. War in Iraq proposed....most are opposed.

2. War starts and seems to go good....few complain.

3. False info.....hullaballoo! Anger! Politics! Cheese!