Prison Overcrowding.

[ZekeyLizard]

Most prisons are hideously overcrowded. It costs more to keep a man in prison than to send a student to college. Its costing all of our countries vast amounts of cash which could be spent on much better things. Such as pie.

What do you blokes, chums, amigos, compadres, buddies, and folk feel should be done about this problem?

[Kelp_Master]

i think that we should punish prisoneers instead of sending the to some place where they can live for free (not happily but it's still free) it makes me sad . . . . .

[squealpiggy]

The problem with prisons is that not enough is done to prevent people from going back there. It would cost probably an extra thousand pounds per year per prisone to educate them and give them a trade of some sorts for when they leave. If they do that, give them a trade, give them some self worth and take away the influence of drugs then they will greatly reduce the chance of recidivism, so although it would cost extra now, it will save money later.

Unfortunately the newspapers like to perpetuate the unhelpful view that prisons should be to extract revenge on the prisoners. The first objective of penal reform is to prevent people from going into prison again, through deterrent and rehabilitation. Unfortunately people aren't sensible with that, they want revenge on the criminal, even if it comes at a greater cost to themselves.

[PoofBird]

It's a silly idea that sending them to the 'free place' is not a punishment. Prison is tough.

First thing you have to ask yourself is: why do we punish criminals? What is our main reason and goal?

a) to make them suffer for what they did, ie: revenge.
b) to make them repay the damage they did
c) to protect the community, ie: lock them up so they can't do any more harm
d) to rehabilitate, ie try to change them in such a manner that they will be fit to go back in to the community after their punishment

If you make prisons cheaper, you will be mainly focussing on a) and c).
Good thing about that is it restores a sense of safety and justice with the public. They'll be happy to see the criminal suitably punished.
The important question to ask is: what will happen when the sentence is over and the convict returns?

I think a lot of them will come out worse. This is a major threat to society and totally unfair to the ex-criminal.

To make punishment meanigful we have to invest in rehabilitation, education and reasonable living quarters.

[leper]

In my opinion we should b bringin back Capital punishment.:evil:

[squealpiggy]

That's an unfortunate opinion. Why do you think that?

State sponsored barbarism is the last thing we want to return to.

[Cloakey]

Put them into bloodsport. Just like a real life unreal tournament! Prisons get emptied and we get entertained...and i spose it'll stop crime slightly too.

[ZekeyLizard]

Sadly,

This is already happening Cloakman.
Its called a prison riot...and the prison guards seem to enjoy instigating these things.

[SDF of BC]

We could fire them at the sun! :twisted:

[squealpiggy]

Or we could fire this topic into the cheesebin if it continues in this mould...

Please be sensible, this is a great topic.

[ZekeyLizard]

this is a great topic


w00t

I think the best way to stop prison overcrowding (for the future anyway) is to try to forcefully install more upright values in our children.

So many kids today are little disrespectful foul-mouthed bastards.
Yet, there are quite a few that know right from wrong, and do right.

If kids dont see the consequences of their actions at an early age they'll just grow up to be lil' criminals.

[Reddig]

I personaly have nothing against overcrowding in the prisons. They are in fact for punishment, so let's not get all soft and nice for them kiddie-rapers, murderers, muggers, thugs and all kinds of scum. They are not there to watch tv, sit on sofas and eat free food, they are there to be isolated and punished, so that they will never want to go back there again. Also making them do some kid of labour during their time will teach them a job or two, some kind of post-proson jobs should also be supported.

On the other hand, the obvious way to deal with the problem of overcrowded prisons is a better prevention, so I'd rather finance police force than prisons.

[squealpiggy]

A better police force will result in more prisoners. And a prison will not act as a deterent to comitting crime, just as a deterrent to getting caught. You get criminals who are more violent in their desperation to remain free. Capital punishment doesn't reduce crime so why should incarceration?

Lok at it this way, most people commit crime at first because of background. If yu have nothing to lose then you have everything to gain, so you take risks to get into crime. The facts are that most prisoners come from shitty backgrounds. In a sense their fist time in prison is society's last chance to reverse it's failure to produce an unpstanding citizen. So what we need is a means of teaching and rehabilitating prisoners while they are in jail and reward them for good behaviour with time off and with rehabilitation of offenders legislation (this is already in place) that means that they do not have to declare that they were in prison to prospective employers. That ay we can end the cyce of crime in their life. Prison is a deterrent and they have an alternative to crime because they've had training.

At the moment the only training criminals get on short sentences is from other criminals. Ways to get around, for example, burglar alarms: Simple. Go when there is someone in, tie them up, beat them until they tell you the location of their valuables and rob them that way... Obviously if people are going to learn in prisons it is much better if they learn from teachers, not from othr criminals.

It makes sense for crime prevention to put money into rehabilitation. In doing so we would save far more in policing and in insurance claims.

[Reddig]

But then again why prisons at all? Let's go radically this way, and send them to... i dunno... prisoner schools or something. And give them good grades if they are gentile. And pocket money.

Prison is supposed to be punishment too. In my opinion it is supposed to work as the last resort for convincing people that crime is bad. Because if normal rules don't work for some people, maybe something to scare them off will. But a prisons where they give you better conditions than the ones you had back home wont scare anyone.

It's just a question of strategy - what is more effective. Prisons that try to resocialise, so that people wont commit crimes afterwards, or prisons which scare people off from commiting a crime. I don't know which is better, but i believe in the second way.

[squealpiggy]

As I said they don't scare people away from crime, they scare them away form getting caught. Rehabilitation coupled with isolation as a deterrent is the bestway. Unfortunately it is difficult to sell to a population who want revenge for crime, even though revenge costs more in the end.

[Pod]

Originally posted by PoofBird
It's a silly idea that sending them to the 'free place' is not a punishment. Prison is tough.

First thing you have to ask yourself is: why do we punish criminals? What is our main reason and goal?

a) to make them suffer for what they did, ie: revenge.
b) to make them repay the damage they did
c) to protect the community, ie: lock them up so they can't do any more harm
d) to rehabilitate, ie try to change them in such a manner that they will be fit to go back in to the community after their punishment

If you make prisons cheaper, you will be mainly focussing on a) and c).
Good thing about that is it restores a sense of safety and justice with the public. They'll be happy to see the criminal suitably punished.
The important question to ask is: what will happen when the sentence is over and the convict returns?

I think a lot of them will come out worse. This is a major threat to society and totally unfair to the ex-criminal.

To make punishment meanigful we have to invest in rehabilitation, education and reasonable living quarters.

not in England. I remember the legal definition of going to prision being something as simple as "to deny them of thier freedom" ..... thats it. Its not like other countries where you try to rehabilitate :/

[Cloakey]

fuck it. stick them in there and forget about them. if they feel they dont have privacy or enuff food to go round then they should realise that they r a bunch of fags and no one cares.

[squealpiggy]

Very constructive. So who will pay for them being shoved in there for being a "bunch of fags" and will anyone care when they are out again and committing more crime?

I am of course assuming you wished to bring something to the debate.

[Cloakey]

who said anyfing about letting them out?

[Dr-Electro]

I think you are simply bent on revenge. More people should care what happens to prisoners. Many of the people stuck in our prison system are only there because they got caught smoking dope.

OOooooooooooH! The dirty buggers! Lock them up forever and forget to feed them! Ooooooooooooooooooooh!

Wrong idea. Simple drug users, not those who are also violent pedophiles and murdering fiends, but those whose only crime is possessing an ounce of marijuana with intent to smoke a joint should not be clogging our prison system.

I favor a short-term in-house arrest with mandatory drug abuse education. If the doper follows the rules, he or she gets their freedom back in a short time. If they fail to follow the rules, they go to jail for a short sentence. However, sentences should be increased for repeat offenders.

When I say increased sentences, I do not mean "Three-Strikes-and-You're-Out" like in California and now some other states as well. A life sentence for three monor possessions of weed is absurd n the extreme. The way those laws are written, some of the most petty dope infractions are landing people in prison for life! Life sentences are for the most violent and the most incorrigible career criminals. Dopers deserve a real second chance, but that does not mean the system should just lock them up for a month and then dump them back on the street and ignore them until they are caught again.

I know that some people who will read this are grass smokers. Ok, that does not bother me in the slightest. What you do on your own time is your business and nobody else's. I am not advocating that you be locked up at all. I would actually like to see marijuana legalized. The Dutch have what seems to be a nice system. Let's all go that way and see how it works out.

Decriminalizing dope and reducing sentences for first-time offenders of non-violent crimes seems like a great idea, at least on the surface. Rehabilitation of first-timers also makes sense. Some of the young kids who get caught shoplifting, for example, should be taught a lesson, not thrown in with the bad guys. Teh man who steals a loaf of bread to feed to his starving family needs charity, not prison. Yes, I'm on my soapbox, but I mean every word of what I have written.

Prisons do not have to be overcrowded. Let's reexamine our criminal justice system and reform it instead.

Side note: I care what happens to people in prisons. I have seen people I know go to prison for a short sentence and come back out to a harder life on the street than they had in prison. It is no wonder that some of these people commit crimes to get back on the inside.

My son-in-law had a one-year prison sentence for petty theft. He came out into the world determined not to repeat his mistake. He got a job and saved his money. He now owns his own business and is doing a superb job of providing for my daughter and their kids. They live a straight life together. I am not proud of the fact that my son-in-law was in prison, I am damned proud that my son-in-law has made a success of his post-prison life.

Think about how you would feel if you were just released from an uncaring system.

[Cloakey]

can any1 actually be bothered to read replys when they r this long??? who cares if they're in there 4 smoking dope? if they werent so stupid as to get caught then they wouoldnt b in there would they?? its their problem not mine.

[Smeagle]

Actually Cloakey, yes. Dr-Electro makes some very impressive and thought-provoking points, and the debates section is made for posts like this. You can't have a proper debate if everyone posts short, badly constructed replies.

If you can't be arsed to read it then don't, but don't complain about it. Perhaps the cheesebin would be more suited to your style?

[Cloakey]

ure reply was short, u hipocrite!

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Cloakey
can any1 actually be bothered to read replys when they r this long??? who cares if they're in there 4 smoking dope? if they werent so stupid as to get caught then they wouoldnt b in there would they?? its their problem not mine.

Someone goes to prison for being caught with dope. During their time at prison they end up in a cell with heroin addicts who get them into dope to pass the time. They would smoke weed in prison to pass the time but mandatory drug tests coupled with the fact that dope stays in your system for far longer than heroin means that heroin is a safer option as regards to avoiding getting caught. So this person has no rehabilitation and is back on the streets, now addicted to heroin. He gets hold of a gun, and robs you. You resist and he'll kill you, he wants his fix. Do you care now? Because that is what happens to people who are thrown in jail with no thought to how they will cope when their sentence is up.

Oh and if you don't ike reading long replies please don't bother with debates, there are a lot of long replies here.

[Cloakey]

ok. Squealpiggy wins.

[Pod]

Originally posted by Smeagle
Actually Cloakey, yes. Dr-Electro makes some very impressive and thought-provoking points, and the debates section is made for posts like this. You can't have a proper debate if everyone posts short, badly constructed replies.

If you can't be arsed to read it then don't, but don't complain about it. Perhaps the cheesebin would be more suited to your style?

i highlighted the key word there
Cloakey , it's why people like him get to post such short 'hipocritical' [sic] responses

[felp]

Dr- Electro makes a good point, i'd go 1 step further. If you wish to stop most prisions from being over-crowded and if you wish to save every government millions upon millions of dollars every year, the answer can be simple.
Legalise all drugs. They are however sold under scruitiny, such as everything is in a chemist, and labeled so that the person knows what it will do to them, exactly, and it will only contiain information from reports which hold up to peer scruitiny. With this bold move, you actually reduce organised crime's finances as well, because right now organised crime is the biggest backer of prohibition. the reason? they want to make sure they can charge large amounts for practically nothing, they also know that most of their customers choose to go onto "harder" drugs after they've tried something like weed, because they have them - in other words person A goes to see dealer, who happens to be in mob, person A asks if dealer has weed, dealer says he doesnt, but does have some acid/cocain/heroin etc person A considers it, possibly for the first time (probably not though).
Similar things also happen in prison. If drugs are cheaper, supplied at a higher quality and regulated by the government aaand made leagle, prision over-crowding will cease to exist, acording to gore vidal the statistics for drug related arrests in our prisions are something like (i actually dont have the number off hand) 80% - if 80% of our criminals suddenly arn't commiting a crime, can seek help where needed, well need I say more?

[squealpiggy]

Felp I appoint you Secretary of Sate for Sensible in my New World Order Government.

Do you know that heroin is less harmful than both vicodin and methadone, and is less addictive and cheaper to produce? So why not give free heroin on the NHS? Less chance of reoffending, easy fix for the addicts, no need to steal, nothing to stop addicts from holding down a regular job... Basically we reduce crime, we put drug addicts back into society earning money and payng taxes, we save ourselves loads in medical bills not to mention the savings on prison and bringing criminal cases and we take a major earner out of the hands of the dealers.

Unfortunately there will be people who are willing to pay the high price we already pay to ensure that noone is getting "something for nothing". Duh... how about people who sell their methadone for heroin?

When I am King and Felp is the Secretary of State for sensible out Utopia will totally rule!

[Reddig]

ure reply was short, u hipocrite!

MWAHAHAHAHA! Smeagle, you've fallen into his sneaky trap! Hah! You hipocrite! Yarr! Now all you have left to do is go on with your pitful life and despair.


And now seriously:
There should be two or three different types of prisons - higly restrictive for the worst criminals, and less restrictive for smaller criminals. You wont resocialise the worst evildoers, so they should be isolated. As for the small time bad guys like thieves, drug owners and all that... i dunno, maybe you are right with that resocialising but then again the prisons will be more like "a place to meet new friends and listen to some bullshit about being good and working" and not a place, which will simply scare people off.

And about those drugs... I'm fully pro euthanasia. If someone wants to kill himself with drugs - why not then. Legalise drugs, and mafia wont earn cash on people commiting mass suicides with heroin and other types of shit.


Before you'll be king, you'll have to lock me up somewhere far away, because i'd be the first to lead the reactive force ;]

[squealpiggy]

I'm a cleverer leader than that! I would make you minister in charge of opposition. It is only through resistance that you fully explore your ideas, so criticism of the way I rule wil make me a better ruler.

But I'd be ruling in a groovy kind of way.

[Dr-Electro]

Felp, that notion is a good expansion of my plan. Imagine what a source of tax revenues this plan could be. As Secretary of the Treasury, I would take a sincere interest in the policing and oversight of the ditribution system and all vendors would have to purchase a government permit and take courses of study to properly maintain their certification as licensed dealers. Ooh! Look at all the revenues coming in! Our government coffers are fattening up while our prison population declines.

[squealpiggy]

On the subject of prison reform I learned a lot from a book called "Inside" by John Hoskison. He was a pro golfer jailed for a drink driving death and he tells about his experiences in prison and his opinion on where it is going wrong.

Very well written.

[Dr-Electro]

I need to read that book.

I have an idea. Australia has been such a smashing success, let's empty the prisons into a new penal colony. Ship them all to the moon and see what they do up there. Are ya with me on this one?

[squealpiggy]

But that would mean that I would have to go commit crime because I want to go to the moon!

[Pod]

Originally posted by Reddig
MWAHAHAHAHA! Smeagle, you've fallen into his sneaky trap! Hah! You hipocrite! Yarr! Now all you have left to do is go on with your pitful life and despair.


And now seriously:
There should be two or three different types of prisons - higly restrictive for the worst criminals, and less restrictive for smaller criminals. ;]


It works this way in England, catergory A B and C prisons, A being the meanest and most heaily guarded, and c being reffered to as "open prisions".At leats i think its ABC... might be a D in there :D

[squealpiggy]

I think it is D that are open prisons, cat A are for serious escape risks and lifers, B are for long term prisoners who aren't ready for an open prison and C is reception.

[Ferret Pie]

I think exile should be reintroduced, it would get rid of criminals and it wouldn't be expensive for the country. You could let them back later if they only had a short term to serve. Of course this assumes a non reforming attitude to criminals but oh well, we can get Derren Brown to mindwash them into being good.

[squealpiggy]

Exile them where exactly?

[ZekeyLizard]

New Jersey!

[felp]

squealpiggy I like your kingness type idea thing. It's good. Another bonus to having 1 ruler for the entire earth, it will stop many wars.. although yes you do get some revolts here and there, but well, who doesn't!?

Oh and Australia really did benifit from all those convicts, they set up roads, built walls that are still sturdy, and whilst it took immagrents to give us better market gardens and food, the convicts did all the crappy manual labour that was too labourus for immagrents (do u know how annoying it would have been to pave a road in the desert?) SO effectively, if we get the to colonise the moon or mars, we would also need a bunch of poor immagrents con'd into believing they'll make much more money on a place that has no econemy then their already established state... etc etc

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by ZekeyLizard
New Jersey!

Wouldn't that be forbidden in the Constitution as a Cruel and Unusual Punishment? :D

[Dr-Electro]

Ergo, if you want to go to the moon, you don't have to commit a crime, you just have to be a gullible emigrant.

[squealpiggy]

Hey! Dr E! That's me! You're describing me there! Woohoo!

I will be an immigrant soon ;)

[malcolio]

I say bring back capital punishment for murders. The way I argue it, pay back crime with the same punishment. However, this won't really solve the problem of prison overcrowding, so I say use Ferret Pie's idea and exile them. Take all prisoners to Iraq or other unhospitable places, and make it that they can only get back if they make a certain amount of money there, like a grand. There, now the goverment is getting money out of crooks, how about that?? :D

[felp]

mm, buut if criminals should fear exile, why would they try to flee the country after getting caught?

[malcolio]

Originally posted by felp
mm, buut if criminals should fear exile, why would they try to flee the country after getting caught?

Well, if they're already caught, they'd try and get away from prison. But if prison was exile, really they're jsut saving the gov time and energy in getting rid of them. The only problem is making sure they don't come back.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by malcolio
I say bring back capital punishment for murders. The way I argue it, pay back crime with the same punishment. However, this won't really solve the problem of prison overcrowding, so I say use Ferret Pie's idea and exile them. Take all prisoners to Iraq or other unhospitable places, and make it that they can only get back if they make a certain amount of money there, like a grand. There, now the goverment is getting money out of crooks, how about that?? :D

Firstly from a moral standpoint there is no justification for state sponsored murder. If you sanction a murder of an individual no matter what their crime then you also commit a crime.

Secondly from a practical viewpoint, no system of justice is totally accurate. The number of trials where people are found to be not guilty after they are executed is far too high, and the resutant lawsuits from this would be enough to cripple a government. Case in point here. (http://www.wm3.org)

Thirdly if you execute someone who suffers the most? The family of the accused. The innocent family of the accused suffers the most from state sponsored execution.

Finally there is no evidence to suggest that capital punishment in any way deters crime. If you look at the countries that still have capital punishment you will not see a lower crime rate. Does the United States have a lower crime rate than the UK? Does Saudi Arabia have less murder than Canada? No.

[Scribbly]

Dump them all on a deserted island, drop several guns and wait for 2 weeks. Then collect the remain people and put them all in 1 neat little prison.

[squealpiggy]

Make sure you televise it and then once the furor has died down do a celebrity version!

[Dr-Electro]

Put the celebrity version on TV and see how much payola comes rolling in. I'll bet it outsells Wrestlemania.

Good Ol' J.R.: Look, King! Clint Eastwood has a .44 Magnum and he's whuppin' Danny Devito like a guvvamint mule!

Jerry the King: It's a slobberknocker, all right! Britney just kissed Madonna and then skewered Alicia Keys with her bayonet. Duck! Dr. Phil has a shotgun and he's aimin' it this way!

***POW***