woman's rights

[goody 2 shoos]

k.. there are problems with woman's rights on this forum
first, no woman avatars... why??? theres like, 5, out of hundreds!
second, you talk about boobies, beer, and partying all the time..
how am i supposed to feel? llike im with all tese people who have the same ideas as me?? i dont
third....no good threads... all bout beer again
and 4th... i have no life outside of the web sooooo i gotta say something about this so i can ahve a good life!
i want some changes, men! ur being pigs!:(

[eleanor]

I partly agree, but don't think that's really a debate, more a complaint.

I say "partly" cos there's no real problem here. Enough of the girls talk about getting drunk and snogging guys, it evens out. But I'm not averse to making complaints about sexist posts (see female rockers thread!)

[Mr.3374]

No good threads?
Start a good one yourself.
No decent avatars?
design and submit one yourself.
Don't blame the males if the female element haven't got their act together.The opportunities are there......

[Sloth]

hey i tried with my Gum( from jet set radio future fame) avatar...

http://www.mediocreconartist.com/images/avatars/gum.gif

:D

[squealpiggy]

Women's rights? Hahahaha women don't have rights! Next you'll be talking about the "female orgasm". Don't believe everything you read!

:D

[eleanor]

Originally posted by Mr.3374
No good threads?
Start a good one yourself.
No decent avatars?
design and submit one yourself.
Don't blame the males if the female element haven't got their act together.The opportunities are there......
Indeed, what I was thinking, but was too tired to compose.

[Playbus]

Arf

[Jeff The Jiff]

Originally posted by goody 2 shoos
k.. there are problems with woman's rights on this forum
first, no woman avatars... why??? theres like, 5, out of hundreds!
thats not the case; most of them can be either male or female. theres just about 5 lil girly ones.

[Twatybollocks]

Not true, woman can talk about boobies, beer and parties all they want!

Seriously though, if women want to talk about things that would interest women...then post away!

[Seraph]

Originally posted by goody 2 shoos
k.. there are problems with woman's rights on this forum
first, no woman avatars... why??? theres like, 5, out of hundreds!
second, you talk about boobies, beer, and partying all the time..
how am i supposed to feel? llike im with all tese people who have the same ideas as me?? i dont
third....no good threads... all bout beer again
and 4th... i have no life outside of the web sooooo i gotta say something about this so i can ahve a good life!
i want some changes, men! ur being pigs!:(

'If you can't beat them, join them.'
:) ;)

[ZekeyLizard]

I tried to make some more female avatars....didnt get added though

[often Ndisguise]

it is a fact of life that all most men are interested in is boobies and lots of sex. Get over it. I have learned to accept this sad lil' truth.

[goody 2 shoos]

I DID join the guys, and i was sorta cranky the other night witch is why i was being a lil biatch, but im thinking maybe a whole sorta page for females (sounds very women going through menopause, i know)... but i think it could be there up with "the cheese bin" and "general weebl and pap" because the forum ladies, and forum guys in touch with their feminine side need to put up some things about great shopping spots without all of these people viewing them and thinking "wtf?!?" and bitching about it when we dont need it.
just an idea to take into consideration
and i really appreatiate the tampax thing, really.;)

[Wahoo]

unless there is a thread here that is solely for men then i think that is a pretty sexist comment. Just because weebl is a boy and his cartoon include 2 males, doesn't mean that there are no female things. There maybe more men than women on this forum, but if you want to get involved and see things changed, you need to act, instead of complain. Most of the avatars on the forum now are probably personal ones, if you want to design an avatar and see it made that is female, then that is yor desicion, or you could ask someone to make a certain type of avatar for people to use. If there were more women than men on the forum, the men would still get involved.

[BlueHippo]

ILL GET TO WORK ON A GIRLY AVATAR RITE NOW! w00t ;)

[BlueHippo]

sorry for double posting, but i have finished it. its not really good, like ALL my avatars, but i thought i would give it a shot, for they laaaaaaaaaaaaaadies.

[PeePers]

eerrmmm..
the avatar problem: maybe there arent enough girlie avatars, But what sex are weebl and bob in the first place?(and i dont think aliens have a sex at all)
that most men are only interested in boobs and beer?
NONSENSE
thats one of the biggest, most SEXIST(jus sexist because sexism works both ways) generalising remark ever to walk these forums..
i(being definatly a male) couldnt give a shit about boobs and beer
(they are both good fun)
and im sure that amongst the cool people of the forums(no not the cheesebin retared wankers) there are Enough people who think the same about this.

so its bullpoo to say this forum is sexist..

[squealpiggy]

that most men are only interested in boobs and beer?

Not true. You forgot sport.

I don't think that this forum is sexist. If you think that men liking boobs is sexist then you must have some sort of issues with men...

[felp]

it is very hard for something that is not alive to be sexist. Not only that but everyone here has the exact same ability as everyone else of the same stature.
If there are more guys here, then that means there will be slight amount more guy topics. This isn't unusual either as there are on average more constant male net users, although the females are catching up!
The other thing is with your arguments I could claim this website is anti-Australian as it has very little in the way of posts about ... umm.. err.. Aus rules football, and look at all the remarks in the World cup rugby dealy, and there are no Aussie avatars (not that i've looked), but I'm not that stupid so I haven't claimed this, nor ever will.
Basically what makes you, as a female, so special that you must have custom avatars for your sex done by people not of your sex and topics and such created and discussed for your sex by people not of your sex?
As was said before, you want a chick avatar, you make it, you want chick topic, go post them, you dont want to read about boobies and beer then dont read a topic tittled "what i did at the pub last night" etc.

[Wahoo]

felp, check out b_em :)

http://weebls-stuff.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=258

[squealpiggy]

I think this website is anti-Pele because there isn't a Pele avatar ;)

[goody 2 shoos]

srry... its not really sexist at all
i just want more girly stuff cuz im a girly girl!!
and i like the new avatar

[Hydralisk]

This forum is anti-something0or-other, because there are certain things that haven't been mentioned.

(I am not Racist or sexist, I hate everyone just the same)

[Mexican Pie]

Men, Sexist? I'm not going to lie about that. But there are sexist Women. The kind of Women who want dominence, not equality.

I think sexism is only really helping people, not the Human Race in particular.

Of course Men like Beer and Boobies. And 2 women at 1 time- it's in our hormones. Want to try and stop it- it's damn hard, because it's in our genes to be the way that we are, and we can't change it unless we want to.

And what's so bad if Weebl is a guy? It adds to the comical humour.

[b_em]

Ah nothing like a debate about women's rights!

As Seraph said...

'If you can't beat them, join them.'

In actual fact, there was a translation error in that. The correct form is...

If you can't beat them, get a bigger baseball bat. If that doesnt work, find a chainsaw



Female Avatars: yup, make one. Or do as all women do, find a man to do it for you.

Female content: OK, I am somewhat biased here. I'm not offended by a conversation about breasts and arses, as I am bi. That said, I do regularly offer up pictures of fellas for the ladies and I agree that more women should get involved.

I actually have to say, I have been thinking recently about a girlie aspect to the W&B forums. You see, some of the ladies and myself have an underground network whereby we discuss the forum men, men in general, cosmetics, gossip, and sex toys. Back in the day, when there were about 3000 less members, there was actually a very strong female representation. Back then there was less camwhoring, and no requirement to blather on about how damn sexy someone was every time they posted the same damn picture they posted 30 seconds before. No one was interested in impressing anybody, because us women all knew that at the end of the day, you put on the strappy red whore heels and the men would worship the ground you walk.

I digress.

So, in that spirit, I create the ladies room

You'll find it in Pap somewhere. Conversation will be dominated by women, and revolve around women's topics. There will be gratuitous posting of men with nice bodies and the occasional angelina jolie picture to placate the lesbians. Men will be tolerated but not encouraged.

And maybe one day when enough of us have performed sexual favours for the mods, we may even get our own forum :o




*I do believe i represent the female australian minority, felp ;)

[Dr-Electro]

This thread smacks of cheese! Or smells of it. (Okay, I'm joking.)

Women's rights. Yes. I am old enough to remember the beginnings of what has been called the Women's Rights Movement. I personally have been accused of all manner of heinous travesties against the female human population. Not one of those accusations held a single shred of truth, I was a convenient scapegoat for angry women to vent on, merely because I am a male.

That, my friends is sexist behavior in the extreme. I was attacked by women just for being a man. I have never been a sexist. That does not mean that I dislike women, I am married to one and I have a daughter and granddaughter whom I love dearly.

These forums and cartoons and stuff that goes with them had not a trace of sexism in them until this thread started. Now, we are all in a position to start labeling each other with gender-bias in mind. Stop the silliness. Go make your women only threads. I don't care at all.

Besides, I am a magical reptilian creature who just happens to breathe fire. All humans are small, cute creatures. I mostly think of them as slightly annoying pets.:p Gender does not count in beasties that small.

[Jeff The Jiff]

men like boobs as much as women like shopping.
there. equal.

[ZekeyLizard]

Ouch.
Painfully true.:nana:

[mpd]

Originally posted by Jeff The Jiff
men like boobs as much as women like shopping.


I hate shopping.

Not all men like boobs.

Not every woman who believes in feminism hates men & wants to be dominent of men.

The problem on this forum seems to be generalization.

[Smeagle]

Originally posted by mpd
I hate shopping.

Not all men like boobs.

Not every woman who believes in feminism hates men & wants to be dominent of men.

The problem on this forum seems to be generalization.
Who said anything about all men liking boobs, and all women liking shopping? As far as I can see, the comment in question was merely stating that men like boobs as much as women like shopping. Some men do like boobs, and some women do like shopping - fact.

Your reply actually reinforces Jeff's comment. Although you meant to argue with it, in saying what you said you were still sticking with the idea that men like boobs as much as women like shopping.

[mpd]

Originally posted by Smeagle
Who said anything about all men liking boobs, and all women liking shopping? As far as I can see, the comment in question was merely stating that men like boobs as much as women like shopping. Some men do like boobs, and some women do like shopping - fact.

Your reply actually reinforces Jeff's comment. Although you meant to argue with it, in saying what you said you were still sticking with the idea that men like boobs as much as women like shopping.

He didnt say some men or some women, therefore it was applied to all women & all men, as women is a word for all women as a collective & men is a word for all men as a collective.

& it was still a generalization as it was suggesting that shopping was the prefered activity of all women as opposed to men & boobs the prefered activity of all men as opposed to women.

nearly lost myself on that one

[Dr-Electro]

MPD, you have hit on one very important point when you point out that this thread is mostly generalization. That is what most of the posts in all threads like this one appear to be to most of the readers. It is difficult to express a personal opinion that does not sound vague and general for most people. Therein lies a fault that can lead to disagreement which in turn can lead to a flame war at times.

My personal opinion:

All human beings are created equal. Even if we evolved from swamp slime that became primates after a few hundred million years, we are all intended to be equal. That we are not all equal is a matter that can only be addressed by individuals treating each other with respect as equals should.

There are no accurate labels because each group that people try to label is composed of individuals who are unique. People do not fit into pigeonholes. Therefore, see each individual you meet as an individual member of the human race. It makes no difference what the person's physical appearance is not what the individual's gender is. That person you are looking at is as much a single entity as you are in your own eyes.

I live by that opinion. I may sometimes describe individuals according to their physical appearance or ethnicty, but it is only a convenient means of expression. I am not putting labels on people, merely identifying them.

[Kelp_Master]

Goody 2 Shoes
i want to help but i am a lowly form of forum user and i fear that there may be nothing that i can do

I do however, simpathyze with your plight and i will gladly fight against anyone who wishes to disgrace your good name. For you are a kind natured person who deserves respect.

I love your kind of people and will happily die without hesitation so that you might have one moment of joy

[b_em]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro
Yes. I am old enough to remember the beginnings of what has been called the Women's Rights Movement.

These forums and cartoons and stuff that goes with them had not a trace of sexism in them until this thread started. Now, we are all in a position to start labeling each other with gender-bias in mind. Stop the silliness. Go make your women only threads. I don't care at all.



Dr E, surely the womens rights movement was underway back in the early 1900s when we were trying to get the vote?? Damn I underestimated your age. ;)


There is no sexism in this thread, only an outlet for people's views on how men and women are represented in society. The forums have always had exactly this level of 'sexism' and gender bias, and if you've missed out on that then you've been asleep in your cave FAR too long :P.

And simply by saying 'go make your women only threads. I don't care at all...', you are showing that you do! You are distancing yourself from the female contingent in the words you use.

Maybe I should explain a bit further. I'm buggered if I can remember how this thread started, but this is where it has evolved to. Offering a forum thread / facility / whatever which caters for women is not in any way saying 'we want something extra'. It is acknowledging the fact that the majority of the conversation focuses around male issues. Male problems, male concerns, male interests. Now I know that is a generalisation. There are some forum men who haven't got the teeniest clue how to manipulate a mysql database / a remote control / a beer glass. However for the purposes of majority interest, I'd say we can assume that the forum men are more interested in these things than forum women.

By providing something that caters for women, we're saying that we appreciate all of your interests and concerns, and we're not going to try to impinge on these, or to change your JACKASS VIDEO OUT SOON YAY thread into a PINK HANDBAG OR BLUE? I THINK THE PINK, DONT YOU? thread.

Why can't people see things for what they are?? Women create things that cater for them. It's not a threat to all those things that cater for men, it's a perfectly reasonable addition. Personally I love the new LADS THREAD. The women pictures in there are fabulous and the view count versus post count shows that sometimes men are much happier to watch than participate. It doesn't even occur to me that somehow I am threatened by that thread.

Yet women create a thread that caters for them and fellas look around as if we're about to smack them with our handbags and run for government.

*****

I've said this elsewhere. I am in the process of starting a support group and mentoring system for women in engineering professions and the built environment industry within australia. The idea is that female engineering students are being given an inadequate idea of what the real world is like as a graduate because all of our careers information is catered for men and centered around the male experience. The reality is that women DON'T have the same chances as men in the Australian Built Environment workforce. We suffer discriminative work practices, promotion prospects, and while women make up approximately 15% of engineering graduates from Australian Universities, we also make up only 3% of the practising engineering workforce.

I can't even begin to describe the trouble I have had even getting the idea off the ground. All the female students agree that it is necessary. I have women in industry nagging me to let them get involved. I take it to the Institution of Engineers and get a less than lukewarm response. WHY?

The male students might feel excluded.

If you publicise the problems we will have trouble getting girls to take Engineering at Uni.

We don't have the money for it.

They commissioned a research paper into the problems of retaining women in the engineering workforce and now are blocking it's publication because they dont like what it has found.

I just looked through an issue of Australian Pipeliner Magazine (the monthly glossy magazine for the pipeline industry) and found only one picture with a woman in it. I eagerly looked to see where she worked and the legend said 'Mr J. Smith and wife.'

Wife.

The only female in the entire industry magazine and she doesnt even score a named mention.

Women make up more than half of the world's population, and yet in certain industries, we haven't even registered.

So, to bring this back to the start.... as MR 3374 said...

No good threads?
Start a good one yourself.
No decent avatars?
design and submit one yourself.
Don't blame the males if the female element haven't got their act together.The opportunities are there......

We can do this for ourselves. We have to make our own opportunities. It's just that sometimes, somewhere, people stand in our way.


*****

I am interested in hearing from female students and professionals in Engineering related subject areas or the Built Environment sector. PM me.

*****

[Dr-Electro]

Why don't you try to read all of my post in this thread, friend? The one you quoted was not the only one.

I honestly do, in my heart of hearts and my soul of souls, genuinely believe in equal rights for all. There are inequalities all around us. One of them is the inequality that exists when an individual becomes agitated or frustrated enough to fire off a not-very-well-thought-out response.

Read more, attack less. I need to follow that advice as much as you do, but you attacked last.;)

[Alomie]

I'm female! i think this forum is lovely!! i like talking about drinking, computer games and i can even talk about boobs if that is the conversation! i don't see what the big deal is, if it's sooo anti-women, why don't you change it! i think it's funny! her your all as crazy as hatters! (in the nicest possible way)

[Dr-Electro]

*tries on crazy hat* *hat falls off horns*

Nope, not a hatter. Just a dragon. However, I am probably as crazy as the next forumite.:cool:

[b_em]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro
Why don't you try to read all of my post in this thread, friend? The one you quoted was not the only one.

I honestly do, in my heart of hearts and my soul of souls, genuinely believe in equal rights for all. There are inequalities all around us. One of them is the inequality that exists when an individual becomes agitated or frustrated enough to fire off a not-very-well-thought-out response.

Read more, attack less. I need to follow that advice as much as you do, but you attacked last.;)


Dr E, I have always had absolutely the utmost respect for you. But theres a couple of things here which disturb me.


A) Someone else took over your computer and wrote that response

or

B) You have mysteriously forgotten me and assume this is my first time in debates

or

C) You were responding to someone prior to my post and they unfortunately got lumped together.


Unless I specifically say I haven't read all the posts in a thread, you can assume I have done. Give me that much respect at least. The fact remains that even if two posts before and two posts afterward you had stated you admired women so much that you secretly wished you could be one, the post I referred to raised the issues that I mentioned in my post. I did quote the passage that I was referring to. I was simply disagreeing with your suggestion that the thread was creating sexism rather than highlighting it. I do believe that is my right in a debates thread.

I did indeed say 'i'm buggered if I can remember how this thread started'. I only read the posts after my previous post before replying, and so couldnt precisely remember the opening comment. I do apologise if somehow this suggests I am not giving the debates process due time and attention.

One of them is the inequality that exists when an individual becomes agitated or frustrated enough to fire off a not-very-well-thought-out response.

Read more, attack less. I need to follow that advice as much as you do, but you attacked last.


I'm not sure how fast you think I can type, but I can assure you that a post in excess of 800 words is not something I can simply 'fire off'. You should be able to tell from the content that this is a subject close to my heart and rather important to me. The nature of my current project involves a great deal of research into the situation, and to describe my response as ill considered is hurtful, and I do believe, rather injust.

You've been around the forums long enough to know that what I posted in no way constituted an attack on you. Please remember that as a participant in the debates forum, even as the mod, you are still open to criticism if people disagree with you.


I am overjoyed that you genuinely believe in equal rights for all. Hopefully with time more people will come to that way of thinking. Unfortunately at present this is actually not the case, and it's certainly worthy of discussion to find out why.

I apologise if you feel this should have been sent via PM, however you did not show me that courtesy in your response.

[squealpiggy]

Your personal crusade is, I take it, women (or lack thereof) in Engineering. I have to say that my experience of women that are interested in engineering in any aspect is extremely limited. Could it be that girls just aren't interested by the subject? Not that they feel intimidated by it's masculine environment?

Put it this way, the most masculine environment in any job is front line armed forces. Women want to join the armed forces and fight on the front line. They are not intimidated by it's male dominance, in fact the male dominance spurs them on even more towards their goal of integration.

Like I said the kind of subjects that one needs to do engineering are not the kind of subjects that are of interest to most girls. So less girls do the necessary schoolwork for engineering so their are less emale engineers.

Or at least that's how it seems to me.

[Ferret Pie]

Perhaps it is just one of the differences between men and women... like being able tocall your best freind a man-whore and laugh but being slapped by your girlfrien for a similar thing (no, i'm not so dumb as to have found this out by personal experience)
In engineering you work in no particularly harder way than some Female jobs so it isn't strength or anything. Is there a real reason anyone can explain to me?

[b_em]

They had a huge drive a couple of years ago to increase the number of females in Engineering. At approximately 15%, they've actually done rather well. It isn't a 'woman friendly' specialisation....far too much dirt and machinery to entice ze wimmin. My crusade is about the retention of women in engineering. The problem is that the women who do elect to take engineering and graduate with (on average - wait until I graduate: that'll kill the theory) better degrees than the male engineers actually DONT STAY IN ENGINEERING.

The realities of the engineering workforce (where sexism is rife) are something conveniently screened from women right up until they graduate. All the careers and industry information we are given relates to the male experience. In the Australian Civil Engineering industry (my specialisation), the starting wages, promotion prospects and average wage are all higher for men. I don't mean marginally higher - I mean SIGNIFICANTLY higher.

They say that we women have the wrong 'sorts of thinking' for engineering. Apparently the human population as a whole has shown that women are not as at ease with spatial orientation as men. Naturally though, there is a blur. There's plenty of women who are damn good with spatial orientation. And there's plenty of men who are well...good at er....ironing. (Blatant sexist remark! Ban her!)


I've come to realise that you can whinge about something all you like, but at the end of the day, the only way that attitudes and graduate experiences can be changed is from within. My project simply aims to better equip female students for the realities of the engineering workforce. If they're not up to it, they can change degrees early on rather than commit four years of study to it. If they're happy to take on the challenge, at least they will be prepared when they finally reach the workplace to find that the hot and sexy engineers in tight shorts and hardhats that they had imagined are actually skinny, snivelling beavis and butthead types with more preoccupation with our breasts and tea making skills than our engineering prowess.


* I know, this is one tiny chink of the whole sexism debate, and it has bugger all to do with the original course of this debate. Hopefully it might just illustrate the fact that sexism is far from dead.

[squealpiggy]

at least they will be prepared when they finally reach the workplace to find that the hot and sexy engineers in tight shorts and hardhats that they had imagined are actually skinny, snivelling beavis and butthead types with more preoccupation with our breasts and tea making skills than our engineering prowess

I never thought that engineers were anything like the hunks you first describe. As far as I know, this is an engineer:

http://home.sprynet.com/~pnahay/dilbert.jpg

But everything you said about it not being women going into engineering but women staying in engineering once they get there makes perfect sense!

[Jeff Teh Jiff]

Originally posted by mpd
I hate shopping.

Not all men like boobs.that was my point.

if anything really, the world is sexist against men nowadays; all these feminist groups and everything petitioning for more women doing certain jobs etc. If someone started a male equivelent it would be considered to be very sexist. Can't people just accept that men and women think differently and do things differently and are suited to different jobs? That was largely a generalisation however; women can do mens jobs and vice versa - it depends on the person's personality. Goody 2 shoos was pointing out that she is a girly girl, which has nothing to do with sexism, just her personality.

[squealpiggy]

I do think that in a big way things like affirmative action has gone too far in many areas. Recenly in the news there was a girl at a US high school. This high school had an African American society, it had a Hispanic society, it had an Asian Society and she wanted to start a caucasian club working under the exact same auspices as the aformentioned race clubs (they are not racially exclusive, they are open to all students and they identify and study aspects of that culture). It met huge opposition. What you get is that people have worked so hard in getting their rights they don't know how to stop struggling and allow equality.

[Sr. Reginald II]

Originally posted by goody 2 shoos
k.. there are problems with woman's rights on this forum
first, no woman avatars... why??? theres like, 5, out of hundreds!
second, you talk about boobies, beer, and partying all the time..
how am i supposed to feel? llike im with all tese people who have the same ideas as me?? i dont
third....no good threads... all bout beer again
and 4th... i have no life outside of the web sooooo i gotta say something about this so i can ahve a good life!
i want some changes, men! ur being pigs!:(

I say, woman, you need to learn your [oops-word]

[Repentman]

whoa dude, that is [censored word] up!

and to think i got banned twice for saying "repent"

Three times.

[Sr. Reginald II]

calm down sir, shes only a woman.

And you Sir Reginald, are a male chauvinist pig for pointing that out that way.

[Repentman]

sry guys people hate me saying it in this fourum, but it needs to be said, reginald, you need to seriously [censored word] REPENT.

[Seraph]

Originally posted by Repentman
whoa dude, that is [censored word] up!

and to think i got banned twice for saying "repent"

And you're doing it again?

Stupidity at it's best. :)

[Repentman]

i aint saying unless it needs to be said, im not stupid, im stubborn. The reginald the duke of hatred here is gonna be banned way before me.

Sorry! You were wrong!

[Sr. Reginald II]

it seems you were wrong sir, you were banned first, better luck next time, old chap!

But I am a spamhead and I had better straighten up immediately!

[Dr-Electro]

My apologies children. Work and family have taken up more time than usual, so I have missed out on what has been happening here. Some posts have been reported to me and I have received some requests to delete some posts by certain forumites. One at least has been banned and it may not stop there, if the rest of you get what I mean.

Stop polluting our threads with obscenities and nonsense. It is not necessary and won't be tolerated for long.

I am still thinking about deleting posts. I may just clean out the nastiness instead.

:evil: Take heed of the warning! You know who you are!:evil:

Oh! Poo! I double posted! *slaps own guilty hand* ow

I have cleaned up some posts. I am not going to delete any posts at this time, but I may start a new thread in cheesebin and begin copying some of the more offensive posts to it. The decision is not yet final.

[Dr-Electro]

B_Emily you were right and I am sorry. I also have the utmost respect for you, too. I was up well past my bedtime and half asleep when I wrote that. I lumped more than two responses together and didn't even realize it until you so astutely pointed it out. I need more rest! (Older men=more frequent naps);)

As to women in engineering, some of the best engineers are women. One of my high school classmates (over thirty years ago, mind you) is a chip designer for Intel. She is one red hot engineer and comes from a group of old fogies who are primarily anti-technology or at least technologically challenged. This is not a demeaning generalization, I know these old fogies because I am one of the old fogies from that class.

That said, the lady in question has a brilliant mind, but because of the fact that we were in high school in the 1960's and she had big hair (blonde at that) and dressed like a girly-girl, nobody took her seriously. Everybody took it for granted that she was a blonde bimbo airhead. I thought she was adorably cute, myself, but we talked about science and math all the time as though we knew what we were talking about.

We were in computer club together and collaborated on a digital electronics test kit. The year was 1968 and I assure you that personal computers absolutely did not exist yet. Our test kit was designed for an IBM model 270 mainframe computer. I should have married her, but I let her slip away, somehow. I think that my have been the stupidest mistake of my whole life. (off topic regrets)

So now, I try to find all the female high school students in my area and encourage them to pursue the sciences and technical courses. There are many young ladies at this one school alone who are extremely intelligent and talented. One of our alumni was an honor student in AP physics, which means that her physics classes were all honor students and the were concurrently enrolled in high school and university. She wound up becoming a supermodel, but is still taking physics and engineering courses in uni while she travels the world's beaches and is adored by millions of heartbroken boys.:D She has a great personality, too.

[Rogue]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro
One of our alumni was an honor student in AP physics, which means that her physics classes were all honor students and the were concurrently enrolled in high school and university. She wound up becoming a supermodel, but is still taking physics and engineering courses in uni while she travels the world's beaches and is adored by millions of heartbroken boys.:D She has a great personality, too. [/B]


are you making this up....sorry lol..sounded kind of like an after-school special for a second.

i am as smart as a whip but i really hate school. UGH. The real glory lies in finding rich husbands and leeching off of them.

Just joking. I would rather be independent.

[Dr-Electro]

Originally posted by Rogue
are you making this up....sorry lol..sounded kind of like an after-school special for a second.

i am as smart as a whip but i really hate school. UGH. The real glory lies in finding rich husbands and leeching off of them.

Just joking. I would rather be independent.

No, I didn't invent that one. She really exists. She was the Guess Jeans model when she was only 15! How cool is that? Imagine making enough money to buy your own first car when you get your driver's license and choosing a Lincoln Navigator! Everybody here is very happy for her and things just seem to keep going right for her.

[b_em]

Thanks you adorable old snuggle bunny, it means a lot :P



**


In more butch and gruff sounding tones, I have to say (and be wildly sexist in the mean time) that a supermodel engineer would be a damn good marketing tool. Hate to admit it (especially since I am one) but the vast majority of female engineers bear more than a passing resemblance to a horse. The reality is that they are no more horrific to look at than the average arts student, but that they give far lower priority to matching clutch bags and lip gloss.



*IBM....1968. It was as big as a building wasnt it??

[Shpox]

I've always thought woman should have same rights and things men can do, if not enough avatars see if anyone will make them on that issue.

"But as to so men can and will do anything women do and women can and will do anything men can."

I do agree with some points that jeff made. Where i live, it seems women get more rights. Even in class women teachers go easier of females in the class rather than boys. Sometimes girls join in but run off once they've had their fun but this is only my opinion in the area i live in with different people. Men need rights aswell. Back in AU when women were only used for family work , that was wrong. Women needed the right to vote in anyway but since then its changed quite a lot. One day both women and men will be equal no matter what happens in anycase. But still around the world women have less rights than men , like in africa which should be changed, they deserve respect but even in some areas, women are mroe provoke than men such as timbuctoo. Anyway whatever the reason equality is essential.

[squealpiggy]

In more butch and gruff sounding tones, I have to say (and be wildly sexist in the mean time) that a supermodel engineer would be a damn good marketing tool. Hate to admit it (especially since I am one)

You're a supermodel? A damn good marketing tool?

Hehe sorry, it just looked funny...

I do agre to a level with Zolton, women now have equal rights to men (possibly they have more rights) so now the feminist movement needs to combat attitudes. By this I am not just referring to male attitude (like the smelly palmed masturbatory engineers that b_em described) but also women's attitudes from a can't do to a can do attitude.

[mpd]

Originally posted by Jeff Teh Jiff
that was my point.

if anything really, the world is sexist against men nowadays; all these feminist groups and everything petitioning for more women doing certain jobs etc. If someone started a male equivelent it would be considered to be very sexist. Can't people just accept that men and women think differently and do things differently and are suited to different jobs? That was largely a generalisation however; women can do mens jobs and vice versa - it depends on the person's personality. Goody 2 shoos was pointing out that she is a girly girl, which has nothing to do with sexism, just her personality.

I dont think the world is more sexist for men or for women. It goes both ways.

The point I was trying to make was that usually men & women get grouped into things automatically because of their sexes, like women like shopping, men like boobs, etc. & thats what annoys me.

Men & women dont think differently, people think differently.

[squealpiggy]

I think that one major factor in how a person thinks is gender. So although some women think like men and some men think like women it is more likely that a man and a women will think differently from one another than two men or two women.

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
I think that one major factor in how a person thinks is gender.

But you could also say that one major factor in how a person thinks could be down to religion or race, yet it would still be very innapropriate & narrowminded to make judgements on that persons character, before you had spoken to them, based on their race.

It doesnt matter how 'more likely' someone is to think something based on their race, because if your assuming something based on a persons race, it is still a prejudiced judgement.

Its only fair to judge people by the contents of their character & not by their sex, race, religion, age, physical appearence etc.

[squealpiggy]

But you could also say that one major factor in how a person thinks could be down to religion or race

You could say that but it would not be borne out by even a cursory study. Race is really far less likely to make a difference than culture, and culture can change the way that you think, religious people tend to have the same ideas regardless of what religion they follow.

Besides which we are not talking about what they think, it's about how they think and there is evidence to show that women and men would approach the same problem in different ways. They have different strengths and weaknesses. This is in no way disparaging towards either gender, but men in general have more spatial awareness and women are better communicators. There are other differences in attitude. In the human species the man feels he has to do stuff to impress the woman, he shows off, he does sport, joins bands, gains positions of power, gets possessions, women find this attractive. The women just have to look good, the men find this attractive. These are generalisations and they make sense from the point of view of evolutions. The ideas are not male ideas, I got my opinions largely from a book called Descent of Woman by Elaine Morgan. But there is evidence of this happening, of an ugly but successful male managing to meet and mate with an attractive and far younger female:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38251000/jpg/_38251515_robbiefowler298.jpg

[b_em]

fabulously illustrated point squealpiggy :D

[squealpiggy]

I think Robbie Fowler is a brilliant footballer (when he plays... He was crap when I saw him) but let's face it with a face like that he won't break any hearts!

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
there is evidence to show that women and men would approach the same problem in different ways. They have different strengths and weaknesses. This is in no way disparaging towards either gender, but men in general have more spatial awareness and women are better communicators.

Yes, women & men have differences in the way they think & can perform certain tasks better than the other sex, like this quiz (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/interactives/personality/brain_sex/brainquiz.shtml) demonstartes but these are only minor differences & it will still vary from person to person. The male & female brain are actually very similar in the way they think.

There are other differences in attitude. In the human species the man feels he has to do stuff to impress the woman, he shows off, he does sport, joins bands, gains positions of power, gets possessions, women find this attractive. The women just have to look good, the men find this attractive.

Well as far as I'm concerned I'm not terribly impressed by a man if he shows off or does sport or gains possessions or power & there are far more important things I think about than 'looking good'.

Maybe Im the only female in the world who thinks like that but that still means that there is an exception to your rule & therefore not all women think the same & it is still wrong to generalise someone because of their sex.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by mpd
Yes, women & men have differences in the way they think & can perform certain tasks better than the other sex, like this quiz (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/interactives/personality/brain_sex/brainquiz.shtml) demonstartes but these are only minor differences & it will still vary from person to person. The male & female brain are actually very similar in the way they think.



Well as far as I'm concerned I'm not terribly impressed by a man if he shows off or does sport or gains possessions or power & there are far more important things I think about than 'looking good'.

Maybe Im the only female in the world who thinks like that but that still means that there is an exception to your rule & therefore not all women think the same & it is still wrong to generalise someone because of their sex.

I do not speak of rules I speak of generalisations. Generilisations which seem t be good ones if you use the evidence produced by certain gender studies. For example

I'm not terribly impressed by a man if he shows off or does sport or gains possessions or power & there are far more important things I think about than 'looking good'.


OK we're talking about a guy who doesn't look good, he isn't into sports, he doesn't show off and he isn't wealthy, would you want to date him? How about sleep with him?

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
I do not speak of rules I speak of generalisations. Generilisations which seem to be good ones if you use the evidence produced by certain gender studies.

Then please provide sufficient evidence to back up your claims because I have yet to see any.

Originally posted by squealpiggy
OK we're talking about a guy who doesn't look good, he isn't into sports, he doesn't show off and he isn't wealthy, would you want to date him? How about sleep with him?

When I said 'looking good' I was referring to my own physical appearance.

Yes I would date someone who wasn’t into sports & doesn’t show off & wasn’t wealthy. I don’t see what’s so shocking about that.

I find people attractive by the contents of their personalities & people that I have a lot in common with. I don’t like sports & I'm not an extrovert & I'm not wealthy either so it makes sense to me that I can find someone attractive with those qualities as someone might find me attractive with those qualities.

[squealpiggy]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/11/031105064626.htm

http://timss.bc.edu/timss1995i/gender.html

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/heshe.html

There are literally thousands of websites devoted to this. OK then so you don't find yourself more attracted to people on the basis of them showing off etc. OK who is more attractive, this man:

http://staff.washington.edu/meganw/boy/depp1.jpg

or this one:

http://www.cyberlists.com/images/executive.jpg

Don't please waffle on about personality, this is about the time that you make the decision whether or not you are going to talk to the guy.

[mpd]

It's not good enough just posting links to articals. How I am supposed to know which part of the artical you feel backs up your claims?


Infact your third source seems to back up my claim that even tho there are subtle differences in the way the female & male brains perform in certain tasks, alot of it will still vary from idividual to individual..

Neuroscience for Kids website (http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/heshe.html) The behavioral and neurological differences between men and women require further study. Perhaps new studies will find neuroanatomical differences that explain some of the complex differences between male and female behavior. However, from a review of the current scientific evidence, it appears that differences in many cognitive behaviors (for example, memory) are related more to individual differences between people than to whether people are female or male.

You havent provided any scientific evidence to support your idea that the womans only task is to 'look good' & that she finds men who do sports, have money/ power & show off more attractive.

& as for your little picture task, well it's hard to make a descision based on first apperances only when one of the pictures is of a very famous actor.

But I will cast any previous thoughts aside & going just on the pictures you provided I would say the man in the first picture.

He looks like a laid back relaxed kinda guy n I'd probably beable to find things to talk about with him, even tho he is a fair bit older than me.

The second guy makes cringe. I hate suits. I prefer baggy trousers n more loose fitting clothes on guys. I also prefer a guy to look like he hasnt taken too much time getting ready cause if he has he's usually a bit of a wanker. I dont find Yuppies attractive.

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by mpd
I prefer baggy trousers n more loose fitting clothes on guys. I also prefer a guy to look like he hasnt taken too much time getting ready cause if he has he's usually a bit of a wanker.


You know how long it takes to get your hair go sit like in the first pic? ;) :D

[mpd]

Well it looks like he's washed it & let it dry n thats how it goes naturally.

If that took along time to do then its a bit pathetic really.

[Tart]

Originally posted by mpd
Well it looks like he's washed it & let it dry n thats how it goes naturally.

I do that with my hair. Spending a long time on hair seems like a dumb thing to me. It's just hair, dead cells hanging from your head. oO; *offtopic*

[squealpiggy]

well it's hard to make a descision based on first apperances only when one of the pictures is of a very famous actor

That was the point. He is famous ergo he is more attractive. He shows off. It's a shame I couldn't find a picture of him in a suit. He does wear suits you know. The guy on his cellphone probably dresses like Johnny when he gets home.

Not all women like men like that and not all men like women who just have to look good, but when it comes to instant attraction women read into appearances and make judgements on that basis, whereas men just look at physical attractiveness. It gets more complicated than that when it comes to life partners.

And the links I provided were to support my assertion that men and women think differently. Women are definitely more complex than men.

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
That was the point. He is famous ergo he is more attractive. He shows off. It's a shame I couldn't find a picture of him in a suit. He does wear suits you know. The guy on his cellphone probably dresses like Johnny when he gets home.

No no no no no! You cant turn around & come out with crap to suit your point! I clearly said I was going by the first appearences of the people in the photograph & putting any previous knowledge of the person out of mind & you twisted my words! If I had chosen the other guy you would have said pretty much the same thing!

Your test was stupid & deeply flawed & proved nothing.

Not all women like men like that and not all men like women who just have to look good, but when it comes to instant attraction women read into appearances and make judgements on that basis, whereas men just look at physical attractiveness. It gets more complicated than that when it comes to life partners.

Oh does it really? :rolleyes:

Well I'd like to tell you of how I met my partner (cadex), since you seem to think that me & the rest of the human population go by your 'theory'!

We met on this very forum (well the old forum) in late July 2002 & had our first conversation on msn on 18th August. That first conversation was probably one of the best I've ever had & I knew from the start he was very special. We just clicked. Over a long period of time talking we gradually fell in love (this was before we had ever met or ever had a phone conversation etc etc.) & told each other we loved each other for the first time on the 24th November (no I'm not some crazy obsessive lady, I just have the log from our conversations so I have all the dates from then). Shortly after that we decided to become a couple & then we met up for the first time December 28th (we live 200+ miles away).

We are still together now despite the distance & still talk everyday & are still very much in love.

I fell in love with him because of who he is inside & not because of all the shallow reasons you think people love other people for & I'm quite disgusted that you dare suggest that I think like that without ever having a conversation with me!

It makes me feel sick to think that thats what people base relationships on.

[squealpiggy]

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that you were all the women in the entire world.

You see we are talking in generalisations, not specifics.

If I had chosen the other guy you would have said pretty much the same thing

You wouldn't have chosen the other guy.

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that you were all the women in the entire world.

No I'm not all the women in the world!

So stop talking about me as if I fit into your stupid generalisations or as if you know me because you don't!

Not all women think the same & find the same things attractive & you haven't provided any evidence to back your claims!

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by mpd
No I'm not all the women in the world!

So stop talking about me as if I fit into your stupid generalisations or as if you know me because you don't!

Not all women think the same & find the same things attractive & you haven't provided any evidence to back your claims!

You have ignored the evidence that doesn't fit in with your worldview, which is basically that there is no gender based correlation when it comes to how people think and their various mental strengths and weaknesses. I'm not trying to fit you in to my "stupid" generalisations in any way. You did that by pointing out that my generalisations don't apply to you.

Not all women find the same things attractive and think the same, true, not all men do either. But there are certain strengths and weaknesses that can be applied to each gender and will generally hold to be true. I thought I had made it quite clear that I wasn't being in any way misogynist about this, I was not trying to say that men are better than women or anything, I was simply saying that the two genders are different from one another in more ways than the obvious, and that there are reasons that this is so. I am absolutely staggered that you are so mad about that and I cannot for the life of me imagine how you managed to get so pissed off!

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
You have ignored the evidence that doesn't fit in with your worldview, which is basically that there is no gender based correlation when it comes to how people think and their various mental strengths and weaknesses. I'm not trying to fit you in to my "stupid" generalisations in any way. You did that by pointing out that my generalisations don't apply to you.

ahem

Originally posted by mpd
Yes, women & men have differences in the way they think & can perform certain tasks better than the other sex, like this quiz (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/interactives/personality/brain_sex/brainquiz.shtml) demonstartes but these are only minor differences & it will still vary from person to person. The male & female brain are actually very similar in the way they think.

I haven't ignored your evidence. I read it & it didnt back up your claims of...

In the human species the man feels he has to do stuff to impress the woman, he shows off, he does sport, joins bands, gains positions of power, gets possessions, women find this attractive. The women just have to look good, the men find this attractive.

This is what I'm pissed off about.

Your claims that this is what men & women find attractive in each other.

As far as I'm concerned thats just bullshit.

Maybe these are some qualities that a partner looks for but it certainly doesn't apply to the whole population.

What a partner finds attractive will vary from individuals.

[squealpiggy]

Riiiiight. You didn't specify that this was the issue. I don't think that the way that I put that in retrospect is actually putting across the point I wanted to make, so you can stop being pissed off now. If you want a source for that particular item (which was intended to be more an explanation of why rich, successful or showoff types are more attractive to women in general than unsuccessful, shy retiring types than a disparaging comment towards women) then you would need to read Descent of Woman as already referenced earlier in the topic.

If something isn't clear then you get further asking me to clarify it than jumping down my throat which incidentaly is a bad idea because I have a bad cough and you might catch something ;)

[mpd]

I thought it was pretty clear what I was on about, but then again so did you.

All round confusion. : p

[squealpiggy]

Woo... heated.

I would definitely recommend Descent of Woman though, it completely changed my ideas of human evolution, and explained some pretty cool stuff about the human body and why it evolved the way it did.

[b_em]

The title bothers me.

What standpoint does the book take??? Is it about women in society?? Society in general?? Evolution only??

Gimme some hard facts so I don't have to read it. :)

[squealpiggy]

It takes the standpoint that without tyhe adaptation of women in developing language and other social skills then the human race would be little more than very smart chimps who can't climb as well. They would also be extinct. It explores the idea that human communities in the early stages were by the sea and that humans are semi aquatic, or certainly were, because and predators were just too hard. Also that men did the hunting and gathering as is accepted which is why in general they have better spatial awareness, poorer language skills, more body hair etc. Women have less body hair because they spend more time in the water. People have long hair on their heads because if you're going to spend a long time in water you don't need body hair for warmth, but if you have young children they need something to hold onto to stop them from drifting away, so they can grab head hair. There are also explanations for breasts and big butts.

It's written by a woman.

[mpd]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
the human race would be little more than very smart chimps who can't climb as well.

Um, isn't that pretty much what the human race is now?

As far as I'm concerned there isnt that much of a gap between humans & chimps.

Well most humans.

[squealpiggy]

Another book to read would be Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson. The point at which humans begin to differ from chimps is the point where they get belief in God.

After that it's enlightenment all the way. Invention of gods to explain away phenomena is the first example of attempting to explain things, sop therefore marks the first step into working out why stuff is rather than just reacting to it.

[mpd]

What are you, a library?

[squealpiggy]

Er... yes! No not really, I just read a lot.