Grammar Argument. Which of these sounds right?

[EDY-innit]

This grammatical argument has been going on in the techy bollocks' thread long enough. Poll time.


None are the best.
None is the best.


Which of the above sentences sounds correct to you?
Me and Weird Al seem to disagree on this.

erm.. i cant find the poll button.

[Nuclear Spoon]

I was wondering how long until this would make it out of that thread...

[Destrukto]

As None is a contraction of not and one it would have to be "None is the best".
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=none

Quote: Usage Note: It is widely asserted that none is equivalent to no one, and hence requires a singular verb and singular pronoun.

[Aquarium]

I keep reading contraction as contradiction, ho hum.

In formal usage, it should be, "none of them is going." In general usage it is acceptable to say, "none of them are going."

same post, different area.

[leopard89]

As None is a contraction of not and one it would have to be "None is the best".
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=none

Quote: Usage Note: It is widely asserted that none is equivalent to no one, and hence requires a singular verb and singular pronoun.


so wot ur saying is that "no one of those dog are bold" is the same as "none of those dogs are bold"?

[eleanor]

Not quite... more like "None of those people are bold" means "No-one among those people are bold".

"None" takes "is". This thread = Pwned By Destrukto™.

[Patrick Moore]

Both would be acceptable in everyday conversation though. It's only the grammar nazis that would pick you up on it.

[EDY-innit]

NONE isnt the subject of the sentence though, it is the 'them' or 'dogs' etc -> plural -> 'are'.

NONE is not used in relation to a singular, it can only be used iin pluralised circumstances, -> are.

[eleanor]

And if you're a grammar nazi* you'll know how painful it is to hear grammatical mistakes made by so many people who are just unaware due to not being taught well enough :(

edit: *cry*

NONE isnt the subject of the sentence though, it is the 'them' or 'dogs' etc -> plural -> 'are'.

NONE is not used in relation to a singular, it can only be used iin pluralised circumstances, -> are.
NONE is in fact the subject.

"None of the dogs is talking to me" can be cropped to "None is talking to me." "None is talking to me" is still a sentence, as it has a subject ("none"), a verb ("talking") and an object ("me") (the three basic requirements for a sentence to be properly formed**).

________
*I am. I admit it with PRIDE. My mother is an English teacher so I've been taught about grammar every time I made a grammar mistake, since I could talk.
**as far as we're concerned - see here for more (http://www.cbc2.org/distance/writingtutorial/grammarpage.htm), or just play with Google yourself.

[Al2]

NONE isnt the subject of the sentence though, it is the 'them' or 'dogs' etc -> plural -> 'are'.
Yes it is. Shut the fuck up.

Example:

One of the dogs is dead.

By your logic "dogs" is the subject of the verb "to be", which should agree with the plural in the sentence (since we're talking about dogs).

One of the dogs are dead.

Now go and talk to real people and take photos of their expressions. Maybe if you put on a funny accent they'll think you're foreign.

Edit: PS, this isn't a debate. This is you being wrong and asking for backup. By the way, the title of the thread is "Which sounds right?". But your actual question is "Which is right?", which is entirely different.

I apologise to Destrukto because I said I wouldn't post here, but I can't help but pick at scabs.

Oh, your other point is flawed too:

NONE is not used in relation to a singular, it can only be used iin pluralised circumstances, -> are.

How about:

None of the cake is left
None of the water has been drunk
None of the pie is for you

Cake? Singular. Water? Singular. Pie? Singular.

[crab]

None of these is correct.
None of these are correct.

Hm.

Perhaps it's a case of fish and fishes?

[Greg]

This person can move jets with his/her brain, yet he/she cannot understand the complete wonders of grammar.

NONE isnt the subject of the sentence though, it is the 'them' or 'dogs' etc -> plural -> 'are'.

NONE is not used in relation to a singular, it can only be used iin pluralised circumstances, -> are.

http://tinypic.com/2lb3u9

[Bisyss]

I think it's "are" as, taken in it's origional context (the OS thread), you are talking about more than one system. More than one=Plural. Plural=Are. I think.

[crab]

Well, techincally, none isn't singular... I think I'd say none are.
Anyway, this is in debates already, and this is ending up a debate/flamefest.

[Lewiji]

The thing is though, "is" sounds like it's being said by a chav.

I have no idea why, it's just what I'm reminded of.

"I is goin to lamps ya!"

(Yes I know that sentence is completely unrelated)

[crab]

Too true!
And we don't want to sound like scallies, do we?
Please don't all answer at once. The sheer windy force of the "NO!" would blow me off my high horse.

[Destrukto]

It's not...

The confusion stems from the no part, which isn't quantifiable.
The grammatical constuction is still the same as "one of..." though.
You take a collection of things and single out one of them, or as in this case you single out the possibility of none of them.

So you have to think back and see None as Not (or no) One.
Then there can be no (!) confusion that it is in fact singular.

[eleanor]

Well, techincally, none isn't singular... I think I'd say none are.

As None is a contraction of not and one it would have to be "None is the best".
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=none

Quote: Usage Note: It is widely asserted that none is equivalent to no one, and hence requires a singular verb and singular pronoun.

Destrukt0wned, bizatch.

[EDY-innit]

trying to explain what i mean here... kinda tough...
problem is, i know what i mean, i just dont know how to word it...

NONE is a REFERANCE to the SUBJECT of the sentence, NOT the subject itself.
If the name of something was 'none' then 'none' would be the subject.
It isnt.
Now, if the variable dogs/them/whatever ISNT the subject of the sentence, then lets see what happens if we take it out.

Using leopard89's ermm... 'sentence'... , we have:
None of __________ is bald/None of __________ are bald.

reading that, you think 'None of WHAT?' and 'the sentence doesnt make any sense!'
Thus, we see that the 'NONE' part is simply a referance to the SUBJECT part of the sentence, as taking the 'dogs' part out makes the sentence void. No sense in the sentence.

Thus 'DOGS' or whtever goes there is the SUBJECT of the sentence.

Now lets see if NONE is the subject.

Taking out the 'NONE of' we have:
Those dogs is bald/Those dogs are bald.
The sentence still makes sense! Albeit only when you use ARE.
Because, 'dogs', a plural, is the subject of the sentence.

So, 'dogs' in the sample sentence is the subject, and it is a plural.
THEREFORE:
'None of those dogs is bald.' CANNOT be a correct sentence.
'None of those dogs are bald.' is the CORRECT sentence.

QED.

[eleanor]

OMFG STFU AND FOAD. You are a textbook case of ignorant, and when you pretend to be otherwise it hurts my eyes and head.

[Destrukto]

I think I just pwned you in my last post by explaining that "none" refers to the ONE possibility out of a group. :D

[Lewiji]

I just showed it to my mom.

Who says "They both sound OK. Can you not just tell them that noone cares?"

So that's what I'm doing.

Edit: Plus English is a living, evolving language which can only be spoken/written as you interpret it.

[Destrukto]

But it's so much fun arguing :D

[Aquarium]

You lot don't talk proper

[Greg]

Choosy moms choose gif.

http://tinypic.com/2lb6yv

[leopard89]

It's not...

The confusion stems from the no part, which isn't quantifiable.
The grammatical constuction is still the same as "one of..." though.
You take a collection of things and single out one of them, or as in this case you single out the possibility of none of them.

So you have to think back and see None as Not (or no) One.
Then there can be no (!) confusion that it is in fact singular.
continueing with edys post. when u change none to no/not one, the one become the subject in stead of them.

[Destrukto]

continueing with edys post. when u change none to no/not one, the one become the subject in stead of them.

My point exactly.

[leopard89]

My point exactly.

erm...so ur agreeing that, "none of those dogs are bald" is correct?

oh...ok...sry

[Greg]

http://tinypic.com/2lb7v5

[EDY-innit]

leopard REALLY doesnt know what hes talking about.
but he tries... maybe he's 'special'. :rolleyes:

Notice we have the OF in the sentence?

OF is a referring term therefore the precedent of OF is also part of the referance.

not one OF 'those dogs'
none OF 'those dogs'

'those dogs' remains the subject, the sentence remains pluralised, ARE remains as ARE.

[TusksRUs]

No one cares.

Thus: cares, singular

Would you say "No one care"?

And so, No one is, is also being singular, are being plural.


(and the other stuff other people said though it's clearly not as good as mine)

[Greg]

Is you sure what you is talk about?

Of balding dog none of are the what?

I grammar are pure perfect.

Nazi of grammar within this thread many is behold splendor of English.

[EDY-innit]

Tusks, the singular for your sentence IS:

No one does care.

[Lewiji]

Why is a dog that spins.

[Destrukto]

leopard REALLY doesnt know what hes talking about.
but he tries... maybe he's 'special'. :rolleyes:

Notice we have the OF in the sentence?

OF is a referring term therefore the precedent of OF is also part of the referance.

not one OF 'those dogs'
none OF 'those dogs'

'those dogs' remains the subject, the sentence remains pluralised, ARE remains as ARE.

I think you'll find you are supporting my argument here.
None is an empty term without the addition of what it's none of.

From your logic "one of those dogs are trained" would be a valid sentence.
It is not.
"None of those dogs are trained" is equally nonvalid.
I'll grant you is "sounds" more correct than my first example, but it really is not.
"Those dogs" is there to provide a context for "none" or "one" to be used and can't be the subject.
The subject is "none of those dogs" as a whole.
Which is singular.

[malcolio]

"Grammar Argument. Which of these sounds right?"

Shouldn't it be, 'Which of these sound right?' :D

[EDY-innit]

the referring term is like an adjective.

Adjective gives extra information about whatever it is referring to.
Same here.

NONE OF is telling us that 'not one of' the dogs are trained.
The fact that it is none of them rather than all of them is the extra information this referring term is giving us.

without the referring term, the sentence can still make sense.
The dogs are trained.

i reiterate,
QED


EDIT: That was a typo, in the thread title. d and s are adjacent on the keyboard. Fast typing->finger slipped too much->d and s together

[Ichor]

Indefinite (http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/pronouns1.htm) Pronouns (http://www.ranshawconsulting.com/grammer.htm)

[da-geezer]

The very appearance of "grammar argument" and "which of these sounds right" in the same sentence is a conflicting statement in itself. The very fact that certain strings of words sound right is sometimes inherently different to whether they are grammatically correct.

I'm fully aware that "none is" is the the correct usage, but I personally use "none are".

As I mentioned earlier though, the structure of the initial question of the thread title means that all this debating is completley meaningless. There is no correct answer after all.

Therefore, neutrality wins.

oh yes, and quit with the constant bitching at each other. Some of the attitude in posts round here sound like they've been ripped straight out of primary school.

And this makes me sad, very sad.
Edit: Also vexed, terribly terribly vexed.
and yes I'm perfectly aware that it's a cardinal sin of grammar to start a sentence with "and". So shhh.

[Aquarium]

geezer, you should have said it makes you vexed, terribly terribly vexed.

sounds nifteh

[Lewiji]

EDIT: That was a typo, in the thread title. d and s are adjacent on the keyboard. Fast typing->finger slipped too much->d and s together

Pffft excuse

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

[pebble_rebel]

It should be "neither is best" oh wait...

[Al2]

and yes I'm perfectly aware that it's a cardinal sin of grammar to start a sentence with "and". So shhh.
No it's not. :)

It's just frowned upon because you should have used a semicolon.

"Which of these sounds right" and "Which of these sound right" are both grammatically correct constructs as "which" takes is quantification from the plurality of the expected answer. Thus, if you only wish for one option to be chosen you should take "which" to be singular; while if you expect multiple answers, you should take it as plural. If you don't know, you should adopt an optional plurality: "Which of these sound(s) right".

Having realised that what Lewiji has quoted has been said by the thread starter, it appears to me he is still unsure as to what, in a sentence, is the direct object of his verb and will plainly lie to cover his back. The reason I come to this conclusion is that the thread title is correct but he's scared of looking to be incorrect and so covered his back when, had he known what the subject of his verb was, he would have been aware that the person whose comment he is covering from was wrong in the first place.

geezer is correct that requesting a grammar debate and then posing a subjective question is a flawed preposition.

Personally I would suggest that requesting a grammar debate is itself a flawed preposition, because grammar is, largely, objective. You are either right or wrong. In this case, we are right and the thread poster is wrong.

Whether you like the sound of it is irrelevant. Whether you adopt the correct form or not is irrelevant. My short post in a n00b thread in TB was purely there to change the subject and introduce a bit of light-heartedness into it by appealing to a common recurring theme that I would have expected a more established member of the forum to recognise and let pass. Now it has stemmed into an argument over a well-defined and non-debatable rule of grammar.

Thus:

The correct form is "none is", whether the preposition clause (of <something>) has a singular or plural multiplicity.

The form you choose to use is entirely up to you. Don't be surprised, however, if I post "None is:eng101:" for reasons explained above should it look like the thread is pointless, noobish or just plain crap.

[Flack]

There's one way to solve this.

Fight to the death.

[EDY-innit]

/me notices lack of disproving my proofs :rolleyes:

[Lewiji]

/me notices that this thread is being dragged on a bit when it's already been said that it's indefinite and noone cares anyway and if you post after this arguing then I will have to explodinate you with my mind powers

[Greg]

/me notices that nobody knows what the hell I am talking about. Yet, I know what everyone else is talking about, because I can read minds! PERVERT! Tits on the brain you have! Is are you bald dogs bearded clams?! :) :rolleyes: :cool: :p :nana: :angel: :eng101: :rad:

Corrected.

[Arkwright]

Greg wins this thread several times over

[Ouch!]

As None is a contraction of not and one it would have to be "None is the best".
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=none

Quote: Usage Note: It is widely asserted that none is equivalent to no one, and hence requires a singular verb and singular pronoun.

checked with my english teacher. Gj Destrukto, u grammar is spot on!! It sounds better anyway. A real challenge would be to see how many people know things like apostrophoes, the correct usages for your and you're or a personal favourite challenge of mine, the corrrect use of the dreaded ;;; semicolan! ;;; (someone shouts: "Are you insane! Thats suicide!!")

[Wahoo]

i would say "one is the best, two is the best", therefore i would also say "None is the best"

[n00bzilla]

"None are" just on its own sounds normal
but "none are the best" sounds wrong but so does "none is the best" i think it would be best said as "none of them are the best"
As for what is historically correct i think it wouldn't matter as the english language has been shaped by it being changed by others like the english and americans when america was begining. without change we are stuck :P

[Fade Away]

The choice between a singular or plural verb depends on the desired effect. Both options are acceptable in this sentence: None of the conspirators has (or have) been brought to trial.

..Just to clarify :rolleyes:

[GorillaBearBear]

leopard REALLY doesnt know what hes talking about.
but he tries... maybe he's 'special'. :rolleyes:

Notice we have the OF in the sentence?

OF is a referring term therefore the precedent of OF is also part of the referance.

not one OF 'those dogs'
none OF 'those dogs'

'those dogs' remains the subject, the sentence remains pluralised, ARE remains as ARE.


I just thought I'd jump in without reading 2 pages odd and call bullshit.

if you have "none of the Dogs" - this goes to "not one of the dogs"

This makes the "one" the subject, the dogs are Genetive and therefore CANNOT be a subject. Not is peripheral and not really important to the debate. Therefore, technically, "none of the dogs is"

[Jack Bauer]

None is

'nuff said

[EDY-innit]

i would say "one is the best, two is the best", therefore i would also say "None is the best"

True, 'two is the best' is a correct sentence, but that is due to 'two' being the name of something (the number 2), and not a referance to another object, thus:

'2' is the best
2 of ___ ARE the best.

in the ''None' is the best' sentence there, as i say, it works IF 'NONE' is the name of a thing, like it can be the name of 0 to some, but when it is used as a referance to something it is followed by ARE.

None of ____ ARE the best.

the sentence plucked from the TechyBollocks thread was exactly 'None are the best' (or 'None is the best') BUT, it was relating to something, i.e. the OSes.



Yes, i'm still maintaining my correctness.

[eleanor]

I'm not maintaining your correctness. Seeing as it doesn't exist it would be impossible for me to do so. But fortunately for you neither will I give in to my desire to bash my/your head against the wall in an expression of frustration. ;)

:eng101: When proven wrong, accept it gracefully and adjust your opinion and understanding accordingly (unless the issue is entirely subjective (in which case it's a matter of opinion only) which this isn't). Ignorance and arrogance are a bad combination, kids.

[Al2]

'2' is the best
2 of ___ ARE the best.
I'm glad you now understand.

2 of ___ ARE the best because 2 is a plural number.

1 of ___ IS the best

Do you see how the number at the beginning of the sentence determines the plurality of the declension of "to be"?

This MUST be the case, because in your own example the prepositional noun (represented by ___) must be a plural simply because there is a number at the beginning.

So in the sentence "1 of <plural> is the best", it is necessary that the "is" refers to the "1" and not to the "<plural>", because we are talking about ONE THING.

We are always talking about one thing out of many things. Thus, in any sentence beginning "none", we are talking about "not one thing" out of "many things".

It is important, then, that the distinction between "not (one thing)" and "(not one) thing" is emphasised. In the former, "one thing" is negated by "not", and this is what "none" means.

In the latter, "not one" is "anything other than one", which is not what none means.

If you don't understand that you're going on my ignore list.

[EDY-innit]

Neither of the parties are going to convince the other party otherwise, in this whole case, therefore I for one am just going to drop the whole thing.

You think you're right, I think i'm right, lets leave it at that.


Admin, make thread go boom.

(Erm... i just realised i used the disputed sentence structure again... damnit.)

[Al2]

Neither of the parties are going to convince the other party otherwise, in this whole case, therefore I for one am just going to drop the whole thing.
Neither of the parties is

We don't need convincing because we're right. You need convincing. It's not a dispute, it's ignorance vs. knowledge. Knowledge KO's ignorance.

Speaking of ignorance...

also, greg wins.

[Cheechy]

lol

[Al2]

Cheechy wins. Sorry greg.

[skoo]

Mines grammars is a bestest

Thread have this closed I