Decision Time

[faragher]

My delightful mother-in-law runs a business. Currently she is using just the one PC, but she is taking on more staff and needs to expand her IT setup.

She needs 2 computers (one needs to be a laptop), able to share files, a printer, and a broadband connection, and me (being the helpful type) has volunteered to set it up.

We have about £3000 to spend (but less would be good), and the decision is this:

Do I just go and buy another XP laptop, and a wireless router and stuff, and carry on using windows, or do I take a leap of faith, buy a Mac desktop and laptop, and convert the lot to Apple.

The computer usage is pretty basic - word processing, emails, that kind of stuff. As far as I can see, the advantage to the Macs is that they are a bit more robust and less likely to get borked by internet usage (i.e. viruses). The advantage to Windows is that I have always used them.

I would like some pro's and con's - try to avoid being a fanboy about this if you can please...

[Perks]

Hmm... OS-wise, http://www.xvsxp.com/ is a superb website that compares Windows XP and Mac OS X in incredible detail, and it's reet handy. Getting Mac stuff would be more expensive, and software might set you back, but Macs are lovely. It's a case of getting used to stuff, I guess.

But, if she uses specific software that only Windows XP uses, then that'll be something to consider.

I'm a Windows user, so I hope that didn't smack of fanboyism.

[Lagmeister]

Not really much to throw between those options to be honest, down to personal preference more than anything if its only going to be used for basic office work, get the cheapest you can safely go for, theres no point in spending anywhere near that £3000 on a laptop and desktop for office work.

[Perks]

Hmm, that's a good point. You could do office stuff on Linux, fehchrissakes. Macs would be ideal if it were a creative-type industry, but yeah, maybe you should stay with Windows unless you don't mind spending more money for the Macs.

[Lagmeister]

You can build your own cheap desktop and put Linux on it if you really want to, it works out cheaper in the long run if you know how to use it properly, but I wouldnt see an office computer really costing more than £300 for the lot, the laptop would probably be £500-£600 mainly as cheap as chips laptops are not really in the market now.

[da-geezer]

To be honest, I don't see where the macs figure into it. If you've got users that are familiar with a Microsoft Windows environment, then changing it will just incur additional costs in replacement OS licenses, replacement productivity software, and training. OS wise, I think just adding to the current Windows environment would work out to be more financially-friendly.

[Pie R Squared]

If you are technologically adept and feel happy putting together a rig, build a cheap ass Sempron or Pentium D rig for the orifice (I'm talking under £300 here) with 802.11 b adapter and buy a semi decent Centrino laptop (even a laptop bought at Currys would do! please don't kill me! )
You can sort out a decent AP with or without modem from here (www.broadbandbuyer.co.uk) and hey presto! If you're gonna be using your existing system for the orifice (called the orifice for good reason) then even cheaper!

Staying with Windows will be beneficial in the long run if you're going to be sharing data with larger companies, as a lot of large scale internal infrastructure is based on volume licenced Windows products, and most people using the apps in place will either not have a clue about looking for a package to open your Mac files on their machines or not be authorised to allow installation of programs on their machines.

There's also the above mentioned ease of use of the existing products, as your mum and her employees are no doubt proficient with the existing packages anyway.

[flapjackboy]

Nowadays, OpenOffice is a credible alternative to MS Office and is free, which will help keep license costs down.

[Al]

There is no reason why you can't use Linux for these computers. Linux is quite capable of sharing files and connections, and if you need help setting them up, I'm sure plenty of people will be able to help. Plus, there's no maintenance costs or licence fees (unless you PAY for it, wtf).

That was the obligatory Linux-fan post.

I should warn you that you will probably have a lot of trouble if you try to use the laptop's onboard wireless system, though, so even though it's free it might not be what you're looking for.

edit - lawl word filter

[Tiggs]

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?rb=12541359545&action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=89079

Buy a monitor and copy of windows if you like and you're done. It's got all that you will need, and you would he hard pressed to make a home build for less money. Theres no real point spending any more for an apple. You could get 2 of those for the price of a mac mini.

[eleanor]

There is no reason why you can't use Linux for these computers. Linux is quite capable of sharing files and connections, and if you need help setting them up, I'm sure plenty of people will be able to help. Plus, there's no maintenance costs or licence fees (unless you PAY for it, wtf).

That was the obligatory Linux-fan post.

I should warn you that you will probably have a lot of trouble if you try to use the laptop's onboard wireless system, though, so even though it's free it might not be what you're looking for.
To add to that, I will say that if you encounter problems with Linux, finding a solution involves Googling and checking the website and IRC channel for your distro - which is fine for individual users, but for an office setup, it could be a bit time-consuming if the solution to your problem is hard to find.

[Al]

To add to that, I will say that if you encounter problems with Linux, finding a solution involves Googling and checking the website and IRC channel for your distro - which is fine for individual users, but for an office setup, it could be a bit time-consuming if the solution to your problem is hard to find.
But there are so many more help resources for Linux problems than there are for Windows problems. Something occurs with Windows and you have to ask either here or get an expert in, and they'll probably charge. Or you can try your hand at tech support (Have you rebooted? Yes? Try reinstalling).

People are more willing to help with Linux problems because they actually care. ;)

[reno]

Get a Biostar/Sempron 2300 combo board, a case with a 350W PSU, 512 MB of PC2700 DDR RAM, Windows XP Home, a floppy drive, a DVD ROM/CD-Burner, and an 80-gig hard drive. Also get a keyboard and optical mouse, and a 17" monitor with flat glass.

This will give you a pretty decent system. It's cheap too. without Windows, the monitor, and mouse/keyboard, the system probably runs for 300-400 bucks.

[eleanor]

Something occurs with Windows and you have to ask... here
but you're more likely to get responses here for Windows problems than for Linux problems, due to the sheer number of Windows users.
Or you can try your hand at tech support (Have you rebooted? Yes? Try reinstalling).
Reboot or reinstall fixes most problems on Windows boxes :P

People are more willing to help with Linux problems because they actually care. ;)
True dat.

[faragher]

Thanks for all your help with this - a couple more points to consider:
The compatibility issue isn't a huge one - would be using MS Office on either setup, which is cross platform.
Secondly (and this is what really triggered this discussion) - the users of this system are pretty low-level in their knowledge. This is not a business that will ever have full time tech support, and because of this we have had some fairly major issues with people b0rking the equipment by accident. I was wondering if Macs were a bit more robust and less likely to be broken by the 'what happens if I click this button' syndrome.

Also, we have had a fairly major virus incident (again because our staff are not hugely IT savvy) and from my understanding, this is less likely to happen with Macs.

All of this needs to be borne in mind with the cost - I don't want to buy a £300 PC, but spend a load of time on support when I could buy a £500 mac mini, and save myself a couple of days a year (and yes, my time is probably worth £100 a day!)

[Aladdin Sane]

Secondly (and this is what really triggered this discussion) - the users of this system are pretty low-level in their knowledge. This is not a business that will ever have full time tech support, and because of this we have had some fairly major issues with people b0rking the equipment by accident. I was wondering if Macs were a bit more robust and less likely to be broken by the 'what happens if I click this button' syndrome.

Also, we have had a fairly major virus incident (again because our staff are not hugely IT savvy) and from my understanding, this is less likely to happen with Macs.


Not meaning to sound too fan-boyish, in the light of what you just said I am also going to recomend Linux for the following reasons:

i) If you say that the people who are going to be using the setup are low level in their knowledge of computers, then changing to Linux won't really make a huge difference since if they don't know Windows too well and they don't know Linux too well, then Linux will become what they learn instead. I say this from experiecnce - I managed to get my parents to use Linux which would have been nigh on impossible if they were already more familiar with a Windows environment.

ii) It is a lot more difficult to break anything through random button syndrome in Linux - anything that you can do that could harm the computer requires the user to give the root password to do so. So if you set the computer up for them and then keep hold of the root password (since it is rare that anyone would need it for day to day use), then the chance of things getting b0rked accidentily are far diminished.

iii) Virus problems - these are virtually non existent on Linux. The same goes for ad-ware, spyware etc.

Of course the same could be said for Macs, but with Linux the hardware won't cost as much to buy, and the software won't cost a thing...

[faragher]

The issue with Linux is the lack of cross platform compatability - we have about 1000 documents and 100 spreadsheets in Word and Excel - I'm not redoing these. This kind of counts out Linux as an option...

[1kcattiesofgold]

You know what? If all they are doing is email, internet, and wordprocessing and you just want to keep them from exploding the computers go with the Apple. My mother did a similar thing, opening her own business and asking her child for for tech support. At the time she refused to use Apple and the company ended up hiring me full time because I was in every day fixing something or another. On the other hand, I gave my 68 year old father who has never used a computer a Mac and set the user restrictions fairly high. This was 3 months ago now and he hasn't broken it once (Good thing, because my inhouse tech support fee would be pretty damn pricy).

Just as long as you don't go all crazy and buy them G5 towers the price shouldn't be too bad. The hardware tends to last a long time, but get the Applecare plan just in case.

Additionally: As much as I love Linux, if you want a huge headache you will set up the office with Linux. Danger! Danger!

[Al]

The issue with Linux is the lack of cross platform compatability - we have about 1000 documents and 100 spreadsheets in Word and Excel - I'm not redoing these. This kind of counts out Linux as an option...
Openoffice reads all Microsoft formats, including Office 2003.

[Aladdin Sane]

The issue with Linux is the lack of cross platform compatability - we have about 1000 documents and 100 spreadsheets in Word and Excel - I'm not redoing these. This kind of counts out Linux as an option...

OpenOffice.org (http://www.openoffice.org/) runs on Linux and will open and save both Word and Excel (and a few other MS Office stuff - powerpoint and the like) documents - I've never had much problem with it in the past, and it's improved with the 2.0 release.

Although if you start needing to open things other than the basic MS Office format stuff, then I would agree things can get a bit tricky.

[1kcattiesofgold]

OpenOffice.org (http://www.openoffice.org/) runs on Linux and will open and save both Word and Excel (and a few other MS Office stuff - powerpoint and the like) documents - I've never had much problem with it in the past, and it's improved with the 2.0 release.

Although if you start needing to open things other than the basic MS Office format stuff, then I would agree things can get a bit tricky.

Very true. I wasn't able to use documents written in Access with OpenOffice. Big trouble for me, keeping that data up to date was my job.

[Al]

Additionally, I have used a Mac exactly once in my entire life. It was a couple of weeks ago when I was looking for an unoccupied lab in uni so I could edit and print my timetable. It crashed when I tried to open the HTML page in a text editor. There is no way in hell I'm using a Mac again :p

I'm currently in a lab at uni now, and I'm on Debian Linux. It's not much different from Windows, and, as Aladdin said, if your users aren't so familiar with Windows then there's no real learning curve to switch to Linux.

[1kcattiesofgold]

Wow, that's kinda sad. Was it an older one? It least at my uni they'd keep the old ones, upgrade them with cheap ram, and update the software until they were slow and unstable. I couldn't even stand to use them, they were so useless.

[faragher]

OK,

Thanks all - Just so you all know, Linux is never going to happen - It needs too much maintenance, and I would need to learn a whole new skill set. I need a nice shiny packaged product where updates happen pretty much automagically...

Still can't decide between Mac's and Win PC's though. 1kcatties is leading me towards thinking macs might be better just because they are a bit more bulletproof.

[1kcattiesofgold]

<3
Really, I have Macs and PCs at my house and love them both. They both have their uses. But with spyware, virii, and the general breakability (sp?) of PCs I would have to say given that you want to set them up and leave, go Apple.

Of course, I'll go to bed in an hour and all the UK PC lovers will have a go at changing your mind.

[Soapie]

You don't need both to be Apple; Apple and Windows computers will network together with just as much fuss as two windows computers :). However, that said, it would be easier to run both on the same platform and, given your maximum budget, I think Apple would be the best way to go provided that you don't require the use of any Windows software for which there is no Mac equivalent.

[1kcattiesofgold]

You don't need both to be Apple; Apple and Windows computers will network together with just as much fuss as two windows computers :). However, that said, it would be easier to run both on the same platform and, given your maximum budget, I think Apple would be the best way to go provided that you don't require the use of any Windows software for which there is no Mac equivalent.

For those rare sticky situations, I like to use Virtual PC. It's a rather nifty app that allows you to run Windows.

[faragher]

Decision made!

It's going to be Macs - one Mac Mini and one iBook.

I also need to set up a wireless connection for them both to the ASDL connection we have - anyone got any recommendations for a decent wireless router that they know will work with t'Mac?

Ta

[Soapie]

Decision made!

It's going to be Macs - one Mac Mini and one iBook.

I also need to set up a wireless connection for them both to the ASDL connection we have - anyone got any recommendations for a decent wireless router that they know will work with t'Mac?

TaI'd stretch to the iMac G5 if you have as much to spend as you say. It's a much much more powerful computer for your money (since it comes with a monitor built in) and is 64bit, not 32.

You should just be able to plug your modem into whichever desktop Mac you get and it can share the connection with the laptop thanks to the fact that both of them have built in wireless.

[Nocashvalue]

http://www.macworld.com/2002/07/reviews/routers/

:)

[faragher]

You should just be able to plug your modem into whichever desktop Mac you get and it can share the connection with the laptop thanks to the fact that both of them have built in wireless.

We need a router - I want this network to be expandable if necessary - also, the phone socket is about 40ft from where the mac will sit, and I don't to have to do cabling...

[Minted]

Any wireless router you like will work fine, in my experience my iBook has been happy to talk to almost anything (as well as find unsecured networks if the uni net connection was playing up). If it helps your peace of mind any, the Airport Extreme cards use a Broadcom chipset, and so if you wanted to keep it 'all the same brand' a router using a Broadcom chipset would be your best bet. Something like this then:

http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?rb=12221307302&action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=60225

[1kcattiesofgold]

I am using whatever 802.11g NetGear wireless router was the cheapest during August in the States. Works just fine for me. You can go the Airport Basestation route, but I think it's unnecessary.