Euro 2008 Qualifying Draw

[AngryPaul]

Draw commences at 1100 GMT
edit/ But as usually, UEFA can't get anything organised correctly. (11:20)

England: Group E with Croatia, Russia and Israel
Rep. of Ireland: Group D with Czech Rep, Wales and Germany
Wales: Group D with Czech Rep, ROI and Germany
Scotland: Group B with France, Italy and Ukraine
Northern Ireland: Group F with Spain, Sweden and Denmark

Group A
Portugal
Poland
Serbia & Mont
Belgium
Finland
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Kazakhstan

Group B
France
Italy
Ukraine
SCOTLAND
Lithuania
Georgia
Faroe Islands

Group C
Greece
Turkey
Norway
Bosnia
Hungary
Moldova
Malta

Group D
Czech Republic
Germany
Slovakia
REP OF IRELAND
WALES
Cyprus
San Marino

Group E
ENGLAND
Croatia
Russia
Israel
Estonia
Macedonia
Andorra

Group F
Sweden
Spain
Denmark
Latvia
Iceland
NORTHERN IRELAND
Liechtenstein

Group G
Holland
Romania
Bulgaria
Slovenia
Albania
Belarus
Luxembourg


What are your reactions?

[Flava Dave]

The Czech Republic and Germany eh? Well that's us fucked.

[Dr S]

"should" be a walk in the park really

but then again we lost to Northen Ireland

[basstard]

Group E
ENGLAND
Croatia
Russia
Israel
Estonia
Macedonia
Andorra


That looks like a distinctly easy group. I am not happy.

Group B
France
Italy
Ukraine
SCOTLAND
Lithuania
Georgia
Faroe Islands

That is not an easy group. France and Italy are both bloody good, and we've drawn with the Faroe Islands before.


In essence, we're screwed and Hair Products Utd [and rooney] can stand about pissing themselves and still win.

[Meatball]

The Czech Republic and Germany eh? Well that's us fucked.


Nah, we'll put up a good fight against the Czechs, it could go either way. As for Germany *suck air through teeth*, lets not go there please.

Roll on September.

England had a nice draw! :(

[Flava Dave]

Umm, the Czechs are a far better team than Germany. I have decided to have faith in Stan.

[AngryPaul]

England do have it nice and Wales and the Republic don't seem to have done too well...
That is not an easy group. France and Italy are both bloody good, and we've drawn with the Faroe Islands before.What about the Ukraine. They finished top in thier World Cup group and are the most dangerous they have ever been, France on the other hand have been a bit like England at the mo, should have walked through the group, but didn't.

[Shave]

should be ok, watch out for croatia and russia but if we're on form then it shouldn't be a problem

[LemonadePudding]

For us (England) I can only think that Russia would give us a little problem, Croatia had a little period of good football, but I think thats passed. Good group hurrah!

[Chavvy]

gawd, you 'sweaty socks' do love merning about stuffs... :rolleyes:

[[murray]]

What is it with the Turks and the Greeks drawing each other all the time?

Its like Sepp Blatter rigs the draws in order to prolong the centuries old tension between the to countries.

Im on to you, Blatter!

[ZOIDBERG]

My reactions?
Mainly "woop!"
I can only think of Croatia getting to the 98 Quarter Finals, so they won't really be that much trouble IMO.

[jonffm]

Nice draw for us. Croatia won't be easy, and nor will Russia, but we should still walk it.

And basstard..what are you going on about? If you got our group, you'd only have a shot for finishing 3rd...so it doesn't really matter.

[dogincognito]

We'll qualify for sure, but away trips to Croatia, Russia and Israel will be tricky.

Ireland might have a chance, depends how Staunton turns out. Germany aren't great, neither are Czech Republic and they will lose a lot of players to retirement after the World Cup, most notably Nedved.

[Dingbat]

We, are so, screwed.

[da-geezer]

Here's an interesting link for the UEFA country rankings (http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index/0,2548,27275-Jan-2006,00.html) for the Men's teams as of this month. Interesting positions, I wouldn't have guessed the Czech Republic would be top of the pile...

(note that the rank positions still reflect the country's position in the world rankings (http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/statistics/index/0,2548,All-Jan-2006,00.html).)

[Ringodadog]

What a charming little group!
I can't remember when Israel was a part of Europe though....

[Thomp]

Once again Lady Luck smiles upon us in the Qualifiers :) Can't see any problem with anyone other than Croatia, and possibly Russia, but saying that we are English, and with a new manager installed after the World Cup there will be new faces in the squad, and will need time to gel possibly

Other than that, we should qualify comfortably

[basstard]

And basstard..what are you going on about? If you got our group, you'd only have a shot for finishing 3rd...so it doesn't really matter.

Ah, but if you got our group, you'd be in the same boat.

I like David Taylor, chief of the Scottish Football Agency, 's quote. "How on Earth do England do it every time?"

[[murray]]

What a charming little group!
I can't remember when Israel was a part of Europe though....

Ever since it was created, for the purpose of the Football tournaments.

Can you imagine how much the supporters would get the shit kicked out of them if they went round all the Arab nations?

Im more bemused by Kazakhstan. Its nowhere near Europe...

[Sebastian]

']
Im more bemused by Kazakhstan. Its nowhere near Europe...

It's part of the old Soviet Union which is European

Well Denmark have another tough group and England have got a walk in the park. Grr...

[jonffm]

Ah, but if you got our group, you'd be in the same boat.

I like David Taylor, chief of the Scottish Football Agency, 's quote. "How on Earth do England do it every time?"

No we wouldn't, we're a better team than Italy...they are nothign compared to what they used to be. France..on paper we're the better team, but those games can go either way.

We'd still be aiming for top, whatever group we where in.

I'd actually ratehr we got your group, because we famously play awful football against lower teams. I mean...one month we're losing to Northern Ireland...a couple later we're beating Argentina...

To be honest, David Taylor should be thinking more about Scotland, not England ;) But the reason we 'Do it every time', is that we're a top seeded team...we can only get one other decent team in our group, while Scotland are in the 4th pot, so they are drawn against at least 2 much better teams...plus, I find it a tad arrogant that he would imply our group is easy, when Croatia and Russia would most probably piss all over Scotland if they played :\

Besides...even if you got our group, theres a good chance you wouldn't have qualified anyway...this way, you get to play europes elite without even going to Euro 2008.

[Dingbat]

And basstard..what are you going on about? If you got our group, you'd only have a shot for finishing 3rd...so it doesn't really matter.

Woah there, Jonny boy. Don't let your "England Expects" ego get the best of you. We'd have a much better chance of getting second in your group than in the one we're in. Look at our World Cup qualification group; we very nearly finished second when compared to Italy and Norway, who would surely have "only given us a shot for 3rd" also.

I'm always amused by these bold statements you make: "We're better than Italy"? Where did you get that from? And don't say the rankings, because I've heard you denounce them before (and at any rate, they rank France as better than you).

How can you call David Taylor arrogant considering the post you just made?Croatia and Russia "would piss all over" us? What *are* you on about? In actual fact, we usually do a good job of holding the big teams, and at any rate, I hardly think they would do as you so eloquently claim.

I often wonder why I get into these debates with you; sad as it is to say, you're exactly the kind of England fan I hate. Overconfident, brash, cocky; you act as if your team is better than Brazil because you won one World Cup in your own country forty years ago and have managed to quarter-finals and semi-finals since. The only times I take comfort in that is when England don't live up to your superbly high expectations, leaving you to berate everyone involved; players, managers, opponents, press, you name it.

It's fun being Scotland; ever since 1978 we've known not to overestimate who we are. We're a country with a population smaller than that of London; even qualifying is a good acheivement. We've been dealt a hard draw, especially with the dark horses from the Ukraine, but we'll get through it and do our best. I know you say it isn't something special to be part of the Tartan Army, but it is, and we know it. We've got passion, yes; but we don't take ourselves too seriously, and that, I feel, is where the problem lies in England.

[Poppa]

I'm English but I can't disagree with Dingbat. English arrogance is a problem that affects the way our team plays.

Scotland were very unlucky not to qualify for WC '06 and came pretty close to Euro '04 as well. They have the right to hold their heads high and be proud of themselves. Scotland 1-1 Italy, Norway 1-2 Scotland (I think) - these are not coincidental results. In fact, Scotland deserved to beat Italy, and the fact that players like James McFadden, Darren Fletcher and Nigel Quashie were more than holding their own against the likes of Francesco Totti, Antonio Cassano and Rino Gattuso means that I'm not surprised that the Scots are proud of themselves.

[da-geezer]

English arrogance is a problem that affects the way our team plays.

I'm going to take this wildly off topic temporarily and say that this "Hype Syndrome" affects all sports. Think of our young athletes, we build them up so high in the run up to the contests, then when they come out fourth or fifth, they get ripped to shreds by the media. Same with Jenson Button; talented bloke, the media all behind him friday and saturday, then sunday when he doesn't win he media maul him. It can't be good for team or personal morale.

Taking this on topic, I was amused to see a "Hair Products United" quote on here not so long ago. I fear that the English team tend to let their superstar statuses (statii? :D) go to their heads a bit, and how you can play football 100% when you have business and career interests outside of football is beyond me.

I really do hope the tabloids don't start going on about "ENGLAND ARE GOING TO WIN THE EURO TOURNEY, THE WORLD CUP, AND NEVER LOSE A GAME EVER AGAIN!!!!!11" in the group stages, as it'll just piss me off, it'll piss the players off, which in turn will piss the fans off and quite possibly start a whiney thread here.

Pity really, as England have some very talented players.

go wales lolol

[Dingbat]

See, this is what I appreciate. England fans who are realistic about their team; they say that on their day, England can outplay any team and have the talent to do so.

They do NOT act as if England have the 'right' to beat everyone.

[AngryPaul]

My reactions?
Mainly "woop!"
I can only think of Croatia getting to the 98 Quarter Finals, so they won't really be that much trouble IMO.*coughSEMIScough*They do NOT act as if England have the 'right' to beat everyone.It happens. The media works in extremes during major championsships. We win = we are #1 in the world. We don't = sack everyone and shoot the players. We needn't be like that. We all know that a game can change a tourney, but it doesn't mean you can win the whole fucking thing if you beat Tunisia 2-1. We need to calm the fuck down. It was the same after the Norn Iron game, we lost: we were the worst England team EVER! Fast forward a month or so to the Argie game where we only beat them through some fortune in the latter stages: Cue the "WRODL CPU WINN0RS" talk, and its still going somehow. Trust me. We won't get to the final. ¬_¬

[[murray]]

It's part of the old Soviet Union which is European

Well Denmark have another tough group and England have got a walk in the park. Grr...

Yeah but Tajikistan, Kyrgyzhstan and Uzbekistan are former soviet states and neither of them are in the Euro qualifiers, they get Asian.

the Uzbeks have more of their country west of the Ural mountains than Kazakhstan, and the Urals are considered the border between European and Asian Russia.

Dont fuck with me on Geography, boy :p

[basstard]

Not dissimilar to how Israel are in the Eurovision Song Contest.

They are patentedly not European, but begged to be let in a while back, and so were let in. There's a story behind it but I don't remember it...

Back on topic time.

[da-geezer]

']
Dont fuck with me on Geography, boy :p

yeah fuckin' ave it!!!!!111 ;)

Nah on topic, AngryPaul echoes my sentiments correctly. Legend.

As for dingbat, he brings up another good point. I'm afraid i'm not an England fan, as I'm as Welshman (save your boos and hisses for later); though what really gets my goat is people in Scotland, Ireland, Wales etc who support teams against England when their respective nation has been knocked out. fs, it's not that bad, I'd prefer to support England and hope they win the Euro tourney if Wales get knocked out, rather than turn round and be a complete tosser (i thought about using patriotic, but it doesn't fit at all) and support any opposition England faces.

Soapbox #43543 goes away.

[basstard]

What really gets my goat is people in Scotland, Ireland, Wales etc who support teams against England when their respective nation has been knocked out. fs, it's not that bad, I'd prefer to support England and hope they win the Euro tourney if Wales get knocked out, rather than turn round and be a complete tosser (i thought about using patriotic, but it doesn't fit at all) and support any opposition England faces.

I have to admit, I'm one of the "tossers" you mention :p

Allow me to take a quick dive into my psych. Firstly, in recent years Scotland have failed to qualify for big tournaments at all, and so when said tournaments come about, we have to pick someone to support. Being all Scotsman and having no descendents elsewhere, what am I to do? I could pick France, because I like the country, but really there's no personal or emotional connection there.

So what I, and I'm sure many more of the Tartan Army, do is to support whoever England's playing against. Don't get me wrong, this isn't us either "glory seeking" or "changing our team every time someone plays", it's simply not wanting England to win.

And for very good reason.

Remember 1966? Of course you do. You do because the commentators bring it up at almost every single England match, usually within the first five minutes. Now, if all the commentators can use to keep the fans at home feeling good is one fricking win almost 40 years ago, then it says a fair bit about the state of the game since then.

Look at Andy Murray. A rising tennis star, every single one of the newspapers in England will call him "British" when he wins. Look how quickly Murray Field [groan] replaced Henman Hill. A rising mania and hype, much akin to that surrounding Brylcreem United [Formerly England]. But as soon as he loses, blames the media, or fails a drugs test, he's Scottish. It's this persistent yet subtle media bias that constantly gets our goat.

Besides, supporting whoever England are playing against is our little way of combatting the "England to win forever we love you David Beckham bumsex us now oh what we lost? Not our boys fault the managers crap it is because he is having relations with a secretary fire him fire him get another quick before anyone notices" attitude the English have.

And there are many historical reasons for showing our dislike of the English Football team. Margaret Thatcher and the "Let's try the Poll Tax out in Scotland first! And the trifling matter of you trying to invade us several times.

Please, don't get me wrong - I'm not being "racist" or "full of hatred" or "thuggish" or whatever. To me, it's all a bit of fun. I enjoy watching England play, they can play very well. It's when things start to go wrong for them that I feel warm and happy inside.

And this is what Dingbat was getting at earlier - it's a sport. It's meant to be fun. It's not the end of the world if you lose a game. And if your nearby neighbours and traditional footballing rivals happen to lose a game, well, it's a shame for them, but it can raise a laugh. You laugh at blonde jokes after all, even though they insult blondes. The Tartan Army - and this is the wonderful thing about them, and why they'll always be great - never take themselves too seriously. They don't start getting drunk and burning cars and cities when they lose a game, unlike some teams. They do get drunk though

And remember, England played Scotland in 1967, when technically England were still World Champions. Who won? Why, we did. I guess that made us World Champions for all of 30 seconds. :p

[Dingbat]

I don't support England, but I don't support their opponents either; that is, unless, someone has been mocking me about England's success...going on...and on... and on...etc.

A lot of people seem to think that it's a good idea to mock me about their country doing well.

[da-geezer]

haha basstard, you did make me giggle.

Aye I can appreciate that it's all just a good laugh, and you've shown me that I perhaps tarred a greater number with the same brush than I should have, but I still feel that there are a few tossers who maliciously support English opposition teams just because they've nothing better to do. Perhaps I'm referring to the racist/haters/thugs in the celtic crowd, I dunno :D

Though yes, people tend to remember 1966 as if it was yesterday, when as you say it's pushing forty years old now. Time to win a new trophy to shout about methinks... even though every Welsh rugby commentator will go on about how we did the Grand Slam in 2045 ;)

Anyway, I do hope England face Germany at some point, as that's always a good rivalry :)

[Poppa]

And there are many historical reasons for showing our dislike of the English Football team. Margaret Thatcher and the "Let's try the Poll Tax out in Scotland first! And the trifling matter of you trying to invade us several times.
Hang on a second - we didn't invade you, nor did we introduce the poll tax in Scotland! It strikes me as a teeny bit unfair to cheer on our team's opponents just because you were invaded centuries ago. And a lot of English people, such as myself, keep an eye on the other home nations in the hope that they'll get a result. I was delighted when you beat Norway, and frustrated when you missed out on the win you deserved against Italy. It'd be wonderful to see Scotland, Wales, Norn Iron or the Republic at a major tournament - players like Shay Given, Ryan Giggs and Darren Fletcher deserve to be seen on a bigger stage. Scotland show a tremendous amount of determination through every qualifying campaign, and have been unlucky to lose out to Holland and Italy among others. You'll always be the Auld Enemy, but we don't cheer on your every opponent.

[jonffm]

Ahh Dingb@t...you do always like to stick your nose in these things, so i'll indulge you and your nack for seeing things that aren't there once again.

*Sigh*

Woah there, Jonny boy. Don't let your "England Expects" ego get the best of you. We'd have a much better chance of getting second in your group than in the one we're in. Look at our World Cup qualification group; we very nearly finished second when compared to Italy and Norway, who would surely have "only given us a shot for 3rd" also.

I'm always amused by these bold statements you make: "We're better than Italy"? Where did you get that from? And don't say the rankings, because I've heard you denounce them before (and at any rate, they rank France as better than you).

Firstly, i'd like to point out that I was very kind in saying you would finish 3rd...Ukraine are a decent team, and we all remember one of your last encounters with the Faroe Islands.

Now now...you're arguing that people only see you as a third place team, by bringing up the last group, where you finished third? Hmm, odd. First...'nearly', is nothing. This is sport, even 2nd place is nothing. You shoot for your goals, and anything less is a failure. End of. To be perfectly honest, you where still a way off...5 points is two wins, which is quite a way in a ten game group. People only gave you a chance at 3rd, and you finished 3rd...you caused an upset, but that was accounted for in the "you'll finish 3rd" claim...any team can cause an upset, but the cream always rises to the top in groups because the best teams almost always recover....theres a reason they are called elite teams.

Now...we are better than Italy. Italy are a team of the 90's. Don;t get me wrong, they are still a class outfit, and are capable of beating us, but we are still the better team. We could beat Brazil, but that doesn't mean we're better than them....to know who is the better team, you have to look beyond rankings and bitterness. We're not better than Brazil because they have a better team ethic, better tactical understanding, and a one-man team in midfield. However, who and what does Italy has that trumps the likes of Lampard, Gerrard and Rooney...a coach that even with me being one of his biggest critics, has taken us to within one goal of two major semi-finals...and one of the biggest fanbases in the world. Italy are alot like Real Madridin the spanish league...still one of the best, but hopelessly clinging to their former genoration as others walk on by. With France...even their official magazine for the world cup announces England as the only power capable fo stopping Brazil...so that really speaks for itself.

How can you call David Taylor arrogant considering the post you just made?Croatia and Russia "would piss all over" us? What *are* you on about? In actual fact, we usually do a good job of holding the big teams, and at any rate, I hardly think they would do as you so eloquently claim.

Why is that arrogant? It's an obvious statement. Croatia and Russia are better teams than Scotland, are they not? Now, taking that into consideration, why does he take his time to come out and publically insult Croatia and Russia? What position is he in to play down teams that are better than his own? "How do England do it every time"...do what every time? Place us in your group in place of France, where we would be as we are a top seeded team, and there isn't much difference. Croatia are good, Italy are good. Ukraine was unfortunate, I must admit, but it happens. It's not about England being lucky, its about Scotland overrating their chances. You're a 4th pot seeded team...finishing third would be a bonus, technically. Why then, oh why, do scotish officials feel the need to throw coal on the fire and start talijgn about Englands group?

I think the major difference here is that you don;t see any English officials talking about Scotlands group. Thats how it's always been. Seems most Scotish fans first think about England before Scotland...a wild claim, maybe, but look at basstards first post, for example. :)

Now...I won't soil this page with a quote of the tosh that followed, as lovely as your usual genoralization bullshit is.

Firstly...don't even use that "I wonder why bla bla bla" crap...it wears thin after, like yourself, you use it seven or eight times. It's a very tacky attempt to divert from debates....along with the "I hate bla bla bla"...note how they are opinions, and the other person is inclined not to care.

It all comes from the tosh in the last lot...the comparison. it always makes me laugh.

Ask yourself. Liverpool and Brighton enter the F.A cup. Liverpool go out in the Quarters, while Brighton reach the 4rd round. Brighton are overjoyed, because its well beyond what they expect, while Liverpool fans are annoyed, frustrated and disappointed because they really should be pushing to win it. Now...would Brighton see Liverpool as arrogant because they are annoyed at going out, when they should really be at least reaching the semis, being one of the top 4 in England? Certainly not. However, Brighton fans also don;t sit on their moral highgroud pissing themselves to sleep when the worst DOES happen. Brighton fans most probably see that Liverpool *are* one of the best, and have expectations far beyond their own. Brighton know their place in the grand scheme of things.

Now, you'll probably try to pick holes in that, but we both know thats compleatly true.

Brighton do not, however, have the right to sit on their self-indulgent little moral high-ground, and try to flaunt Liverpool off as cocky, arrogant, whatever, simply because their expectations and realistic chances are miles above their own.

Imagine if that happened. If Brighton called Liverpool cocky, aggorant, whatever...because they expect to win cups that they stand a decent chance in. What do you think people would say?

The scenario is pointless though, because it doesn't happen. Brighton know their place. Brighton give some respect, and in turn, Brighton get it back.

Scotland are different however. Scotish fans (not all, i'd like to add. I know many scotish fans, and not one of them is anything like yourself) seem to think that they have one of these "rights" (Kinda like the same one we apparantly have to win everything :rolleyes: ) to sit on their highgroud and laugh. Why? Maybe because they think that what they read on the Sun is the view of every english fan ever, maybe its becausewhen we say we could win it, and don't, you wrongly think thats the definition of arrogant...maybe its good old fashioned bitterness and hate, that you obviously have to even use the sentence "you're the type of english fan I hate." Who knows, and frankly, who cares. The end of the lien is that England are one of the worlds elite. Whatever you throw at that, it's still true. England challenge for cups. We're nearly always in the top 8, but we have yet to make that final push. England have always been one of the best, and always will be, so instead of being bitter and resentfull, maybe you should learn to either accept that fact, ot stop giving you're insaely bitter views.

See, this is what I appreciate. England fans who are realistic about their team; they say that on their day, England can outplay any team and have the talent to do so.

They do NOT act as if England have the 'right' to beat everyone.

Now now..again. England do not have the "right" to beat anyone, and nor do Brazil. England have the *SKILL* to beat anyone on their day, as you say. However...also do teams like Sweden...but will Sweden win the world cup? No. Will England win the world cup? Possibly. Thats the difference. Thats not being arrogant, or whatever label you like to stick on it. Teams can be good, and have the firepower to beat any team, but in a competition like the world cup, you need more than to win on "your day". A great team is a team that can play dismal football, and still win. We've seen England play dismally for years in qualifiers, and still win, comfortably. Thats the difference that sets us, France, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, and the others appart from teams like Sweden, Croatia, Turkey.


I'll spell out all you need to know for you...so plainly that you'll still swee it with your selective viewing abilitys.

England, are one of the worlds best. England, *can* beat anyone on their day, which is an asset only owned by a handfull of teams. Because of this, England *Could* win the World Cup. Because of this, English fans *Expect* their team to do well, but also know that there are a good 4-5 teams with equally as good of a chance. You can try to cover that matter up all you wish, but it is true. You can try to make England out to be a team that should be mentioned in the same breath as scotland, but it doesn't make it true. Again..not arrogancy, chum, but a well founded opinion.

Now..begone. I grow tried of your constant whinging.

[Dingbat]

Now now...you're arguing that people only see you as a third place team, by bringing up the last group, where you finished third?
Not *people*. You; and be honest, being who you are, you don't even see us as that.

Now...we are better than Italy.
Not a statement you can make; you haven't played them competitively for eight years, and even then your results were one draw, one loss.

As for David Taylor; I don't know, I just saw his quote in this thread; I only used your frankly baffling assessment of it as 'arrogant' to illustrate a point.

Now...I won't soil this page with a quote of the tosh that followed, as lovely as your usual genoralization bullshit is.
But it's you every time, isn't it? It's you who acts as if your teams have a divine right to be the best; sod the others.

Then here comes the Brighton theory.

Now, you'll probably try to pick holes in that, but we both know thats compleatly true.
I somehow doubt that Liverpool fans would rub their successes in Brighton fans' faces at every opportunity they get; besides which, it's a nonsensical comparison considering the number of teams entering each tournament and the types of football that are played, etc.

You touch on my point here: Yes. England are, specifically, one of the best in the world. They are not the best, and haven't been for a good forty years. The problem is, quite a few English fans still boast about their country's football team as if they were.

Besides which, you say "Will Sweden win the World Cup? No." Bold statement to make. Surely just by being in it, they have that "Possibly" chance that you gave England?

Now..begone. I grow tried of your constant whinging.
Much as I'd like to make light of the number of typing errors in the post, I won't, because that's not what it's about. Didn't you stop to think that the 'whinging' wouldn't happen if you didn't provoke so much? You tell me to keep my views to myself because you 'don't care'; yet when basstard expressed his, you felt that you needed to latch onto that and make your views known, loud as you could.

Have you yet to stop and think that maybe it's not that there's a personal vendetta against you; more that it's the way you act in response to comments not even aimed at you directly?

[jonffm]

Not *people*. You; and be honest, being who you are, you don't even see us as that.

Quite true, as I do not. Why exactly are you good enough to pip Ukraine? Ukraine are a good team. The fact you word it "Don't even see us as that" seems to make out that finishing 3rd is easy....strange, given as you're the 4th seeded team in your group...why, exactly, are you better than Ukraine? You talk about Englis-..sorry, 'My' arrogancy, but yours is simply the same that you seem to see in me, but at a lower level of football. You talk as if calling you a third placed team is an insult, whereas you are the forth seeded team. Being 'Who I am', I see Ukraine as a better team than Scotland. What, exactly, is your problem with that?


Not a statement you can make; you haven't played them competitively for eight years, and even then your results were one draw, one loss.

You seem to mistake opinions for fact.

I am not a polition, strangly. I can make statements that are not fact, but my own opinion. In my opinion, we are better than Italy. You can't compare past results, as both teams have changed compleatly...Italy are actually worse than they where then.

As for David Taylor; I don't know, I just saw his quote in this thread; I only used your frankly baffling assessment of it as 'arrogant' to illustrate a point.

Exactly; you don't know....and yet you go on to call it a 'baffeling assessment', in calling it arrogant....so you have no opinion on it, and yet you see a negative assessment from an Englishman as wrong....hmmm...funny that. Doesn't make you sound bitter at ALL.


But it's you every time, isn't it? It's you who acts as if your teams have a divine right to be the best; sod the others.

Now, explain something. What is this "right" you keep bringing up. I missed the part where I said "England WILL win the World Cup". In fact, did I even talk about Englands chances of winning the world cup before the last post (when you first mentioned this "right")? Nope.

You see, this is why this is a one sided debate...and hardly even a debate at all. Your main argument rests on something that wasn't even said...or even touched on. The only thing that was even remotly close was me saying we where better than Italy, which is my own opinion due to Italys fall from the world-beating side of the 90's.

A flawed debate, as you, being your usual bitter self, assume. Thats all yuo do. Assume. You're basically arguing with an imaginary person, because you're not debatin points that *I* raise, but instead points you wish where raised in that pathetically tainted head of yours. I don't know if you see these points because you want to lash out at some English stereotype you have imprinted in your mind, or that you simply have no reply to my points. Most probably the latter, as your only real answer to any of my points so far as been "I don't know" :rolleyes:

Then here comes the Brighton theory.

Yay.


I somehow doubt that Liverpool fans would rub their successes in Brighton fans' faces at every opportunity they get; besides which, it's a nonsensical comparison considering the number of teams entering each tournament and the types of football that are played, etc.

You touch on my point here: Yes. Engl- yadda yadda yadda. (At this point, I got a little tried of reading and went to make a cuppa. I did read the rest..but i'm sure the boys and girls at home have the ability to scroll.)

Yes, they would. Not as it is, because Brighton don't have the same kind of illusions...or should I say, DISillusions of importance. Brighton don't comment on Liverpools chances. Brighton don;t comment on Liverpool getting draws they see as 'easy' (And frankly, I take it as a compliment that your officials seem to think we're good enough to walk teams like Croatia.). Brighton don't rather pathetically support teams that play against Liverpool. Brighton don't laugh, make petty insults, and generally be rather sad and bitter if Liverpool do go out.

If Brighton did any of the above, i'm sure they WOULD hear some comments like "Where are your 18 league titles?" or "We're third in the league, where are you?". The same applys to Scotland. If they kept their dim-witted opinions to themselves, and where more focused on the job at hand, they wouldnt get any hassle whatsoever. Notice how the first comment in this thread regarding a Scotish person making an opinion on an English matter was NOT made by myself. This topic will probably be locked, because you decided to turn from my comments, which where about the Scotland team, to personal attacks on the "types of English fans I hate"...but yes, you're right, it's always me ;)

Next...the PC bollocks. I don't need to be PC, I use our good friend, or at least my good friend as her doesn't seem to like you very much, Mr.Common Sense. Sweden are not good enough to win the world cup. Thats really all there is to it..and if you really want to argue that fact, then i'll bring it up in July and prove the fact beyond doubt. There are teams that arent great, but can still win, such as Germany...but a team still needs to be of a certain level. Not every team stands a chance of winning. Most, do not. I hate to break that to you, but unfortuantly it's howit works. Sweden are good, and could cause an upset and go quite far, but are you saying you can see Sweden beating Brazil? Hmm.

Now...with the typos (aka, Flawed-debatists Friend) is a nothing comment. You see, when I speed type, I make some typos. If what i'm writing is important, i'll spellcheck it...however, a little debate on the internet reaqlly isn't worth my time in opening word.

Whos provoking what exactly? I'll be as blunt as possible. I really don't care if you choose to waste your time whinging. Do I force you to? Nope, you choose to. With the basstard thing...he made an opinion, and I made mine....and then you made yours. What exactly is your problem there? I must be missing something.

And there it is again...the flawed debate...assumptions! Personal vendetta? Perfectly honestly, the thought hadn't crossed my mind. The only person who seems to think they have a vendetta against them, is you...however, I, unlike you can back that up, as you like to cry about how big bad english fans, like me, seem to rub your poor scotish faces in our apparant success. I however, can;t see where thats happened...maybe you can point it out? No? Thought not.

I think the main factor here, that proves all that needs to be said, is that i didn't even *look* at Scotlands group until I read that quote. The same applys to Scotlands results....and yet, Scotish opinions on Englands group are ripe....and YET, i'm the one who somehow has the problem here. Amazing, really.

Answer me this then...as it baffles me. If I am the one that seems to be at fault here, in giving my opinions on scotland, and always rubbing scotlands faces in it, and "always being the one"...then why, exactly, where the first words uttered in this thread by a Scotish supporter, about ENGLAND, not Scotland?. Kinda makes your claims of me being the person always on scotlands backs, and always being the one that provokes and starts everything look like bitter lies, really. Of course, feel free to correct me, as i'm sure several excuses are already swelling up.

Really. Jog on now. Theres no point in even considering a reply until you've come down from that cloud you seem to be sitting on...back down to the real world, as all your opinions seem to rest on assumptions, fabrications, and Politically Correct mumbo jumbo, chum. As always, this debate could go on forever, because every time you reply, you come up with something new to argue about, that wasn't even there in the first place. It's a commonly used, and still rather pathetic method of debating by trying to make the opposite person lose the will to even bother, as after a while, it starts to feel like trying to kick down a brick wall....but instead of cement, the bricks are held together with a stange paste made from bitterness and stupidity, the two factors that glue your mish-mash of 'opinions' together.

[Dingbat]

Actually, if you'd referred back to the original post in which I said we could've finished second much more easily, you'll see that I said that about your group.

You seem to mistake opinions for fact.
I haven't yet seen you present your opinions as if they were such. You type as if your word is law.

Yes, they would.
So any time you meet a fan of the lower-league teams, you offhandedly mention Liverpool's success and talk about how much better Liverpool's success rate is, then go on to denounce any successes that team has had? THAT'S what I'm getting at. And if we're talking about disillusions of importance, then England clearly fall into that category as well - you're one of the top eight or ten teams in the world whose fans *pronounce* you as the best.

You clearly do care if I "waste my time whinging", as you feel the need to come straight to your country's defence :)

I am not the basstard; forgive me if I ever gave the impression that I was. He said quite explicitly that he prefers to see England lose; I said that it doesn't affect me. *I* am not always on England's back; but I do hate it when, living in England, the country's fans take it upon themselves to mock our failures and glorify their successes.

As for your final paragraph...what utter, ego-boosting drivel. Absolutely no need for the entire passage. Serves no purpose whatsoever.

[basstard]

Answer me this then...as it baffles me. If I am the one that seems to be at fault here, in giving my opinions on scotland, and always rubbing scotlands faces in it, and "always being the one"...then why, exactly, where the first words uttered in this thread by a Scotish supporter, about ENGLAND, not Scotland?.

Kinda makes your claims of me being the person always on scotlands backs, and always being the one that provokes and starts everything look like bitter lies, really. Of course, feel free to correct me, as i'm sure several excuses are already swelling up.

Hello, I think I'll stop being talked about in the third person and explain.

The reason I talked about England first is simple, and nothing to do with which team's bigger or whether Jonny or Dingbat's willy is larger or whatever.

It's simple common sense. Before my post, all the posts were about England. It makes sense, thus, to continue the thread by offering my opinion of England's group, and then mention Scotland's group - besides, there are many more England supporters than Scottish supporters on the forum, and so the England fans will read the first bit, the Scots can read the second.

Nowt to do with me always being on England's back or whatever. Besides, I'm sure being on Wayne Rooney's back would be a very uncomfortable place to be. :/


edit

Will Sweden win the World Cup? No.

Bit of an unfair comment - nobody, after all, was hedging their bets on Greece winning Euro 2004, yet they did. Give the Swedes a chance, just as we're happy to give England one too.

[jonffm]

Still untrue. Why are you better than Polan? Poland are actually, in my opinion, one of the most under-rated teams in the world, as they usually actually play quite well. Why are Norway better, which they must be if you believe that you could have finished ahead of them?

If you really believe that Scotland have climbed that far, as to be better than a team that finished only one point behind a first seeded team, then what does that show?

An ego? Aggorgance? Disillusions of importance? Check three, holmes.

Now, you see, heres another lovely assumption, as always. Can't be an attempt by you at a debate without assumptions in the bucketload, eh? My word, unfortunatly isn't law. I commonly pitch the idea to my local MP, but until further notice, it is not so. A shame, I know, but we'll all have to live with it for the time being. Until then, my word is my opinion. If you see it as law, then by all means do so. No skin off my back, chum.

Next..*sigh*..that wasn't what I was saying, which you would know if you read posts without those darn tartan-tinted shades on. If Brighton thought they where in the same level, had the same objectives, and thought Liverpool should have the same expectations, then yes, they would be shown why they are wrong. Nobody "rubs scotlands faces" in our success...we've only one it once, after all. If you choose to see people showing you why England have much MUCH larger expectations, and thus have much MUCH mroe hype surrounding them as that, then that again is your choice.

Now...I really don't care if you reply....*really*. Don't mind indulging you, in fact, everyone knows I am quite partial to a slice of debatist pie. However, it seems you get rather worked up about such matters, so I thought it was in your own interest to shut up-a your face-a, because you're truely wasting your time trying to back a nothing debate.

Now...this is where you seem to get confused. Nobody that i'm aware of, randomly walks up to Scotish fans, and says "Hay, you're abit shit aren't ya? England are f**king brilliant, guv." I may be wrong, maybe you lvie in Birmingham or something, where that probably does happen.

99% of English fans don't even think about Scotland. I never do, until I read some quote for example, that makes me wonder. Funny how, yet again, one of the first official words regarding an international competition is about ENGLAND. We have other things to worry about...the world cup, keeping our players fit, looking at the next euros, watching this whole sven crap unfold....thinking about Scotlands chances in a compo held in two years time is quite low on our lists....and yet, England is oncemore on the agenda for one of your top officials...funny, that, considering WE'RE always the ones that provoke it. Hmm.

Just, always remember this, and I can't stress it enough. No real England fan will ever, EVER, pointlessly just throw some random insult north of the border. Why? Simply because, as I said, 99% of England fans ONLY ever think about Scotlands football team when it is thrown in their face. If Scotish officials didn;t feel the need to publically insult teams like Poland, they wouldn't need to be put in their place. If Scotish officials and fans didn't ever mention England, I would bet my legs that this pathetic little rivalry (if you can even call it that) that seems to crop up every now and again would be dispelled.

Lastly...theres something you obviously just don't understand and are far too naieve and inexperienced to actually read between the lines. England, along with the other said 8-10 teams, all say they are the best. It's not arrogancy, it's all mind games and banter. Thats ALL it is. You feel the need to read deeply into it, but that is ALL that there is on the matter. The reason differs. Some like banter, as it is something that can mindlessly go on and on and on, and lets face it, it's a good laugh. Sometimes it's mind games...sometimes it's just people realizing that their team is one of the few teams that are capable of winning the World Cup, and thus get behind their team. It may be unrealistic, it may defy all intelligence, but that is what supporting a top international team is all about. Logic is relaced with Blind faith. Honest Reviewing is replaced with Selective Viewing. Common Sense is replaced with pure, raw, Passion.

You may sit on your highground, and not indulge such barbaric tendencys, but that's simply because you don't understand. You've proved that you're incapable of seeing the bigger picture, and can only pick holes in analogys and give your pointless opinions on who you hate. The feeling that grips a fan when he knows the team he is insanely passionate about has a good chance of beign crowned the best in the world, is something you do not understand. It isn't something you can imagine, it's something you can only experience. There is no thrill on earth quite like it...not even Liverpool holding the Champiosn League trophy aloft compares to the passion of a World Cup QF, and beyond.

It's the poor folk that can't see that, that I pity. The poor souls that take tabloids and fans seriously....and not like the rest of us, that take it all with a pinch of salt and a smile.

The only answer you have to that, is the enivitable comparison with Scotlands fans...and as i've aready said, that is a nothing debate, for several equally well founded reasons....but do they really need stating again, with some ones that haven;t even been thrown on the fire yet?


Enlighten me.

EDIT: Basstard, i'm only using you as an example.

Ok, ok. Jesus christ. I'll rephrase. I said Sweden don;t stand a chance, because I weighed up in common sense...note why I gave England a 'possibly'. Sweden have a *CHANCE* of winning the World cup...but then, so do Toga, technically....slightly unfair comparison, maybe, but what i'm getting at is that it's common sence that the Sweedes will most probably be out before the QF's.


And my willy is tres' large. I call it Skeletor.

[Dingbat]

Poland?! Where the christ was Poland mentioned?! I mentioned your Euro 2008 qualifying group, actually. We'd stand a much better chance in your group. And I'm not explicitly stating that we ARE better than these teams. I'm stating that these teams maybe aren't as good as the ones in our group.

No real England fan will ever, EVER, pointlessly just throw some random insult north of the border....99% of English fans don't even think about Scotland.
There aren't many 'real' England fans that I know then. Perhaps they don't where you live, but they certainly do up here in the grim North. I had about ten people come up to me yesterday just to gloat about how difficult our group was going to be.

Actually, interestingly, not all other 8-10 countries flat out say that their country is the best. Believe me, I travel. Germany, whom I give a great chance of winning the World Cup this year, are saying that this could be their year; not that it 'will' be.

Nowt to do with me always being on England's back or whatever. Besides, I'm sure being on Wayne Rooney's back would be a very uncomfortable place to be. :/
I dunno, I bet he'd be quite good at carrying you around.

[basstard]

I dunno, I bet he'd be quite good at carrying you around.

Mmm, like a donkey. All brawn, no brains.

[jonffm]

Because the same was said about our World Cup group too. You had mission impossible, and Lucky Lucky England had a nice stroll in to the World Cup.

Now...strange you are allowed to make wild claims like that, but nobody else is. You're then saying France are better than England, Italy are better than Croatia, Russia are better than Ukraine....care to back those up? You seem to like to jump when people make such sweeping statements, but then do it yourself. Can you say 'hypocrite', kids?

Now..firstly, who exactly says it 'will' be their year? Me? Nope. So why are you bringing it up? Bye bye, Mr. Nothing Debate, right there. Seems somebody reads one too many tabloids. Secondly, the English press, and general fanbase it notorious for making it seem like we're going to breeze through the World Cup, and then beat Brazil 5-0 in the final, usuing only second division players and Chris Waddle up front. Nobody actually believes that, and it's what I talked about, and you convieniently missed, in my last post. It's all banter, mind games, and blinding passion....and if bitter souls like yourself are unable to see past that and look at the bigger picture, then that it nobody elses concern. Thirdly, thats just the German attitude. Germany never say they have a brilliant chance of winning. Even when they where the ebst in the world, they where still saying things like "Oh, we'll be happy with the semis...honest." It's their way of supporting their nation..it's their culture. Every country has their own way of supporting their nation. If you want to see arrogancy, and those that believe they have a "divine right", you should check out the Brazilian fanbase.

Maybe you should re-read my last post...since you are still coming from the "england think they WILL win everything, ever," angle.

[Smokey]

England had better watch out for the mighty Andorra.

[Flava Dave]

England had better watch out for the mighty Andorra.


Isn't that where Chewbacca lives?

[basstard]

Isn't that where Chewbacca lives?

That's Kashyyyk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashyyyk).

Kashyyyk's next to Uruguay, I'm fairly sure.

[Dingbat]

I'm saying that the Ukraine are better than Russia, not Russia better than Ukraine.

Brazil may be the only team who have earned the right to say that anything less than a win is a failure; they've constantly proved themselves. Not that they have a right at all; they just act as if they do.

And it's not just tabloids, which is what upsets me. Even BBC Sport do it.

I didn't say England had an easy 2006 qualifying group; I thought you were going to have it tough. Wales and Nireland may not be up to your standards of football but when it comes to a British 'derby', they raise their game. As for Poland; they've always been an unknown quantity in these situations, since nobody seems to remember how good they are until they play them.

I think it'd be easy to say that France are better than England; they beat England in 2004, they've won two trophies in the last ten years, yadda yadda yadda. Having said that, incidentally, I think as a team England have more quality, but I know that Scotland would raise their game more against the Auld Enemy than they will against France, hence the fact I'd prefer to be in your group. The thing is, Ukraine and Italy are both consistent teams; we've lost to Italy within the past year and the Ukraine were perhaps the most surprisingly competent team who qualified for the 2006 World Cup, coming top of a group featuring Turkey, Denmark and Greece. With Croatia and Russia, there's always that chance we might win; Russia didn't even qualify for the World Cup and Croatia haven't played us for four years. It could be argued there's that chance with Ukraine, true; but that's one team, not three.

Perhaps you haven't said it 'will' be England's year, but you've said, for example, that anything less than the semis in the World Cup will be a failure. Not in this thread, but I've seen it. You've also said that you should still walk through to 2006.

Confidence? Certainly. Arrogance? I think so.

[jonffm]

*Sigh*

Firstly, no team earns the right to say that. You can't honestly say that if England had won the last two world cups, you'd cbe fine with us talking as if finishing 2nd was a national disaster.

Next...as would England. Do you really think we'd play the same way against Scotland as we would against someone like Russia? No. You may think Scotland would up their game, and thats probably true, but so would England. Italy, sorry to break it to you, are not a consistant team. How is beating a low seeded team, and then nearly losing to them consistant? They where about as consistant as we where last year...i.e, not in the slightest.

Now..saying things like "Russia didn't even qualify"...what do you mean, "didn't even"? Making it sound like an easy task, there, which is an odd thing to come from a Scotland fan. Russia happened to come alot closer to qualifying than yourself...they only lost out through goal difference...so if you're using the teams status as a world cup no-show, then you should look a little closer to home first....and what exactly has not playing Croatia effected how good a team they are at all? Croatia finished top of their world cup group, ahead of the bloody Sweedes...yet you seem to disregard them in favor for a team that played pretty awfully against you TWICE. If you can get results against Italy, why fear them? The style of football Scotland play would stand a MUCH better chance than if it where pitted against Italy, simply because the Italian team is in transition.

Lastly...of course it would be. Thats not arrogant, and I truely pity you because you don't understand, for reasons i've already stated. Barring those though, another reason for it is that we ARE in the top four favoured teams going into their competition. It's not our press thats touting us as potential winners, it's most of the worlds. The french, german, and even brazilians can see that we are a threat. They know that we should be topping our group, leaving us with games against Poland and Holland (Probably) between us and the Semis. Now, it's not arrogancy to think that a team that fields the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Owen, Cole, Carra, Terry and Robinson are better than Poland and Holland. You hate it, but we ARE one of the best teams going into their tournie, and thats why you seem intent on trying to disregard confidence and passion for arrogancy.


With this whole big-bad english image you have in your head, and the ones around you that seem to make you bitter by taking the piss..by the way...can you honestly say that if I went to Scotland, and was vocal in my support for England, i'd get a nice responce? Certainly not...but thats probably because of us arrogant and nasty englishmen who have nothing better to do than sit around and come up with insults about bloody Scotland :\ I personally see self-indulgent disillusioned folk that mistake their own importance as arrogant, actually.

[basstard]

Now, it's not arrogancy to think that a team that fields the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Owen, Cole, Carra, Terry and Robinson are better than Poland and Holland. You hate it, but we ARE one of the best teams going into their tournie, and thats why you seem intent on trying to disregard confidence and passion for arrogancy.

Not getting drawn into the argument here...but interestingly, you missed out David Beckham from that list.

I thought he was England's golden boy...

[[murray]]

As someone who can regularly be found on both sides of this debate I must interject.

I am English, I was born in England. This makes me English.

However, for almost all of the last 15 years I have lived in Wales. I worked at a branch of Woolworths in Bangor, which is near to the extreme Welsh part of the north of Wales (Anglesey, Caernarfon) and I have to say I have never experienced such shocking racism as I have there. It's absolutely appalling.

Bangor is a university city, many English people go there to study, this is fair to assume, no? Students need jobs, jobs at places like Woolworths, this is also fair to assume. It is not, therefore, fair to assume, that the people working there are going to speak Welsh.

However, noone seems able to grasp this concept. It didnt especially bother me, cause when people approached me and started speaking Welsh, I could understand it passably enough to garner what they wanted, and I would reply in English. However, one girl whose name I forget, had lived in Liverpool all her life til she went to Bangor uni. People would speak Welsh to her, she wouldnt have a fucking clue what was going on.

Before you go on with the "Surely she could have just told them she didnt speak Welsh". She did. All the time. Some people carried on talking in Welsh, or refused to be served by someone who couldnt speak Welsh.

Woolworths in Bangor stocks, and this is ABSOLUTELY TRUE, baby clothes which say "I dont care who wins..." on the front, and "...as long as it isn't England." on the back. Fucking baby clothes!

A friend of mine's dad, who was born Welsh (but cant speak it) went into a pub in Caernarfon and was REFUSED SERVICE because he asked for a drink in English.

I mean what the fuck?

You wouldnt get that shit in England, Welsh people dont get refused service, theres no anti welsh or scottish messages on chain store clothing. And give that bullshit up about 'we invaded you'. I hate to point out that in the English civil war, the Scots invaded the English. Twice. Wait, what am I saying, I dont hate to point it out at all.

If you cant be bothered reading all that, the summary is: You bring it on yourselves, if there's any anti-Scottish, Welsh, Alderaan, whatever sentiment, its because we get it twice as bad from you in the first place. If you cant take the heat, stop pouring petrol on the fucking fire.

[jonffm]

Not getting drawn into the argument here...but interestingly, you missed out David Beckham from that list.

I thought he was England's golden boy...

The presses golden boy.

He's good, but not great. Few better free kick takers in the world, and when he wants to play, he can play very well, but he's not in the same league as the Gerrards and Lampards of this world.


And Murray, have my babies.

[[murray]]

And Murray, have my babies.

For free? Sir you are a generous one!

[jonffm]

As long as you stick to the yellow ones. They taste like PAIN.

[Dingbat]

[murray] - you're English living in Wales? Fair enough. Logically, that means you can see both sides of the debate...however. I'm Scottish, but I live in England. Surely that means I'm as good a judge?

Maybe English people in other countries in Britain do get it bad. I don't know, I've never had the experience. Bottom line is, all I know is that here in sunny Doncaster, people are concerned enough about Scotland's results to inform me immediately of how poor my team is should we underperform. I could only name two (English) football fans whom I know that wouldn't gloat.

I, therefore, hardly think 'we get it twice as bad from you' is a fair statement. Perhaps it's equal, the amount of metaphorical shiz that each set of fans gets from the other; like I say, I wouldn't know. All I know is that Scots here seem to get it bad.

Responding to other comments; Jonny, I didn't compare us to Russia, I merely pointed out that they didn't qualify and therefore were maybe not as good as the teams in our group, all three of whom qualified top...[murray], I said nothing about being invaded...Jonny, Brazil have won five World Cups, not two...[murray], that seems to be a bit more serious than in Scotland where it's mostly about football, not nationality as a whole...Jonny, don't *Sigh* as if you're legally obliged to answer each argument I produce; you're not, you choose to, so it's hardly any burden to *sigh* about.

I think other people are bored of this now. I'll respond if anyone else continues to, but I'm willing to drop this now. I've said my piece time and time again; there's no way that arguing against both of you is going to make either of you change your minds, nor am I ever going to dump on my national team just because someone 'helpfully' points out how poor they are.

[[murray]]

It wasnt you who said about invasions, it was someone else.

I may have gone a bit over the top, but isnt that what nationality fuelled arguments are all about? :D

[Dingbat]

Not in a football thread :p

[basstard]

']It wasnt you who said about invasions, it was someone else.

That was me.

I believe I was trying to offer a "historical" look at why there might be a friendly rivalry between England and Scotland, and that was one example I thought of. I'm not holding it against every single English person personally! :p

It's more a big brother / little brother relationship; you fight all the time but in the end you make up and get on with it.