The Law: P2P File Sharing

[MrJoe2006]

Hi

I was just wondering if it is legal to download TV Shows from P2P sites?

I missed a couple of Episodes of 'Kenny VS Spenny' and want to download them but I dont know if it is Legal or not ? Even though you can record them from the TV for use is it legal to download them for personal use ?

I did try and find the DVD on HMV Virgin and eBay but they dont have it.

So in short my question is:

Is downloading TV Shows with is free to record from TV anyway, Legal to download ?

Thanks in advance for any input :)

*note I did'nt know where to put this but I thought this place would be best as its about P2P (tech) - If its in the wrong place sorry :)

[Buzzsaw]

I believe it's fine as long as you use them for personal use only and don't sell them or anything. If this is wrong please correct me.

[Nocashvalue]

It's not legal, but neither is recording shows off the tv to video.

[2-D]

its illegal to record shows? why do they sell blank videos?

[Darkscull]

why do they sell blank videos?

why do they allow p2p programs?

because they can be used for other things that arn't illegal.

[Martinus]

The nature of videocassettes means that any cassette can be written to so selling them was an inevitability.

It's technically illegal to tape stuff from the radio as well but since you can't walk into someone's home to see if they're doing it the MPAA/RIAA and their counterparts can do nothing. Ever remember record sleeves with the tape and crossbones logo? "Home taping is killing the music industry".

They continually make greater and greater profits each year and still claim that they're victims. Greedy bastards.

[cutmanmike]

Well it's like this. If the company who made it can make profit by selling dvds, videos etc then it is illegal. If they aren't selling the show anymore then it's legal.

[MrJoe2006]

Thanks for the replies...

Well considering Sky+ is specifically for recording TV Shows and HDD based recorders are for recording tv shows I think it would probably be ok to record them.
But as for downloading them I think that if i download it and watch them and delete them after it without sharing it with other downloaders thats not doing any harm ?

I dont know if i will yet I suppose I will keep my eye out for a repeat on TV in the meantime ( I want to do it legally ) and see.

thanks

[cutmanmike]

( I want to do it legally )

Why?

[Bewildebeast]

It's not legal, but neither is recording shows off the tv to video.
It is under some circumstances (http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/faq/copyright/ex_private_use.htm):
A recording of a broadcast can be made in domestic premises for private and domestic use to enable it to be viewed or listened to at a more convenient time. This time-shifting exception does not cover the making of recordings for placing in a collection for repeated viewing or listening; and use of recordings other than to time-shift a programme for yourself or your family is likely to be illegal.

I would imagine it's illegal to download TV shows from P2P services, but I can't find anything to back that up.

If the company who made it can make profit by selling dvds, videos etc then it is illegal. If they aren't selling the show anymore then it's legal.
Sounds dubious to me - if a record company isn't selling a CD any more, it's still under copyright and it's still illegal to download from P2P. I'd imagine it's the same for TV shows. Do you have a source to back that up?

[cutmanmike]

No I assumed it would be that way. It's the same with videogames see. If the company isn't selling anymore they make it "abandonware" thus can be grabbed for free, yes legally.

[Bewildebeast]

No I assumed it would be that way. It's the same with videogames see. If the company isn't selling anymore they make it "abandonware" thus can be grabbed for free, yes legally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware
The term has no legal meaning. This means that labeling any kind of software 'abandonware' does not make it legal to distribute it. Unless the author puts the software in the public domain, any and all abandonware remains covered under copyright law until its copyright term expires.
Proponents of abandonware argue that it is more ethical to make copies of such software than new software that still sells. Some who are ignorant of copyright law have incorrectly taken this to mean that abandonware is legal to distribute, although no software is old enough for its copyrights to have expired, and even in cases where the original company no longer exists, the rights usually still belong to someone else.

[MrJoe2006]

I've just found this from a Microsfot website:

Apparently: "Recording TV shows is easy and fun with Media Center."
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/using/tv/recordtv.mspx

So if you are allowed to record TV Shows on Media Centre (PCS), Sky+ etc

*Could* this mean that downloading it only to watch is ok ?

Why?
Well really because all I want to see is a couple of kvs episodes I missed.

[Bewildebeast]

So if you are allowed to record TV Shows on Media Centre (PCS), Sky+ etc

*Could* this mean that downloading it only to watch is ok ?
Recording TV shows on Media Centre and Sky+ is - legally - no different to recording them on videotape, which is legal for the purposes of time shifting (see my first post in this thread). Downloading is probably different because you're not recording the original broadcast.

[eleanor]

They continually make greater and greater profits each year and still claim that they're victims. Greedy bastards.
Also, at least one study* has actually shown that p2p filesharing is not the cause of the decline in CD sales.

*I've seen one that concluded this, I assume there are others

[MrJoe2006]

Recording TV shows on Media Centre and Sky+ is - legally - no different to recording them on videotape, which is legal for the purposes of time shifting (see my first post in this thread). Downloading is probably different because you're not recording the original broadcast.


yeah I think I will just leave it - that would be best ?

And wait and see if it repeats soon :)
Thanks for all your input

Also, at least one study* has actually shown that p2p filesharing is not the cause of the decline in CD sales.

*I've seen one that concluded this, I assume there are others


Exactly because If i did download it if/when their DVD came out I would probably buy it like normal.

[2-D]

what else causes the decrease in record sales then?

[MrJoe2006]

what else causes the decrease in record sales then?


Fightstar is what else :p ... lol .

But I heard about it on TV a few months ago I think what the study meant that people would download music like a 'try before you buy' type thing and if they liked it they would buy it.

[Tweekish]

Its a good point! Musical tastes are changing yet the music industry still keeps churning out manufactured bands that only a small proportion of (usually) teenage girls like.

Plus there are other mediums through which you can buy music and films. I think King Kong is the first film to be released via the internet, or at least it was planned to be that way.

[MrJoe2006]

Its a good point! Musical tastes are changing yet the music industry still keeps churning out manufactured bands that only a small proportion of (usually) teenage girls like.

Plus there are other mediums through which you can buy music and films. I think King Kong is the first film to be released via the internet, or at least it was planned to be that way.


Yes that is the point these manufactured bands that if they make it will be 'one hit wonders' such as Shayne Ward 'Thats my Goal' I have always thought there is no point in that and simmilar bands because the reality is if his opponent would have won It would have been the same song/Single and whats the point in that really ? and these manufactured bands all have the same key features such as the boybands were all boybands singing really cheesey songs and selling them to teenage girls (mostly)

I also heard about that King Kong being on sale via download BUT The program I saw this on said it would be £19.99 ! thats more than a DVD and I thought that when legal downloads came out it would be cheaper because they are basically unlimited eg the eBay ebook sellers make money from selling the same thing time and time again and hosting it online for people to download.

Also has anyone heard about the Download to rent movies which are from £2.99 each... I dont see the sense in that because Global video have 'rent 3 for 2' so its £7.00 for 3 DVDs and you dont have to watch it on your PC

Also its the same with the PSP UMDs are from £7.99 - £22.99 in my local Woolworths... why pay say £15 for a dvd and then £22.99 for a second copy to use on your PSP when you can rip the DVD and transfer it ? (thats what my friend does with his)

I think that the Copyright enforcers should see that if people are going to go legal with their downloads they will need to set realistic lower prices.

*end of rant* :)

[cutmanmike]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware

I stand corrected.

[Midget]

Just download the tv shows.

The FBI aren't gonna storm in your house because you downloaded some shows which aren't on TV anymore and aren't available on DVD.

It's not like anyone is losing out. :/

[JoeyM]

Yes that is the point these manufactured bands that if they make it will be 'one hit wonders' such as Shayne Ward 'Thats my Goal'.



Shayne Ward has a new single out called no promises. It is tipped for number one. So that's Two hit wonder.
Shame he is shit ^_^.

I'd say download it. As Midget^ said the FBI (4chan party van) aren't going to storm into your house and give you a huge fine. Odds are that the police will never find out.

[MrJoe2006]

Shayne Ward has a new single out called no promises. It is tipped for number one. So that's Two hit wonder.
Shame he is shit ^_^.


... Well i'll give him that then i did'nt know that, and as you said it is indeed a shame hes crap :P


I'd say download it. As Midget^ said the FBI (4chan party van) aren't going to storm into your house and give you a huge fine. Odds are that the police will never find out.

yeah I tried to find it online but I cant find a site that has it :nana: Too bad i suppose.

.... Would you do it / do you do it - yourself ?

[Spoo]

Downloading will not kill the DVD or CD idustries in the same way that VHS, audio cassettes (hope taping) didn't.

Copyright laws need to be updated to recognise a shift in the consumption of media to an online environment. The very nature of digital technology and computers features copying as a inherent part of the technology. If I send you a file I don't "lose" the orginal myself. The film and music industry need to stop be terrified by things they don't understand.

Regarding your TV show - downloading it would not be legal as such, but as others have said you will not be caught for a couple of episodes. I missed Green Wing again this week and my friend taped it using a USB Freeview device. He is going to lend me a disc copy. That is probably illegal but it doesn't seem like it should be!

[MrJoe2006]

Downloading will not kill the DVD or CD idustries in the same way that VHS, audio cassettes (hope taping) didn't.


Exactly - the reality of it is if you download it and enjoy it your going to buy an original.

I dont personally see a problem with recording it/ obtaining it for private use because it wont hurt them in anyway because there is no option to buy it anyway. and just wanted to see what others had thought on the matter

Anyone disagree ?

Thanks all for your input

[Lewiji]

Put it this way: I download a lot of games, shows, music etc illegally (although I do have a legal music subscription). I'm not causing anyone to lose out, because I wouldn't have bought it in the first place - In fact, by downloading, I'm MORE likely to buy it afterwards if there is added functionality like add ons, or online play in games, or bonus features that aren't available in pirated copies.

It's something the "declining" media industry should think about. They could quite easily give people full versions of games to play but with limited functionality (time limits tied to an email address/account, no multiplayer, only x number of plays) and have you pay to "unlock" it. That'd tempt me to buy a lot more things.

[eleanor]

what else causes the decrease in record sales then?
Ridiculous CD prices and uninteresting "artists" are much bigger problems than filesharing, apparently - which can only be good news, as lower CD prices and less shite bands would be an improvement!

[Soapie]

what else causes the decrease in record sales then?Massive increase in legal downloading, greater decrease in sales of vinyl and cassettes than CDs (often when a music industry exec says something about "declining" record sales, s/he is including in that vinyl and cassette sales, which, of course, have been declining hugely since the advent of Napster in 1999 or so, whereas CD sales have been either not declining or doing so only slightly), people who are not willing to pay £12.99 for a CD (I only do if it has nice packaging), incorrect perception that there "is no good music around these days" and so on.

[Martinus]

The thing that the recording industry and motion picture industries are afraid of is the people that download and then don't buy. Not because they want something for free but because the 'product' is of such poor quality that nobody would want to buy it after having heard/seen it. They would no longer be capable of doing what they're currently doing i.e. releasing CD's with two singles and a load of crap on them, or carbon-copy generic movies with 'insert celebrity of the hour'.

Who wants to make good films for fair pay when you can make shit films for fantastic amounts of cash. Can anyone honestly say that Brad Pitt and his ilk deserve millions of dollars for what they do?

[Midget]

I think that ALL celebs are massively overpaid.

They aren't that great, they aren't doing anything special, they aren't directly helping anyone in any way.

All they have is a talent, just like a computer programmer or a teacher. Only difference is that they get paid millions for their talents.

As for downloading stuff, I download music and movies illegally with absolutely no intention whatsoever to buy. This may be selfish of me but pah! I don't get paid a fortune for the trhings I do, so I'm not paying a fortune for their crap.

As for software and games, yes I have download them illegally in the past but I try to avoid it where ever possible since I know that these people do have a talent but aren't paid that great.
They spend hours coding software and get paid peanuts while 50 fucking cent sings a few songs at one concert and get millions.

I really don't care about the music or film industry at all, they have far too much money as it is already and I don't see why we should have to pay for their 19 lamborghinis and 4 holidays pr year when they could get along just fine charging £4 per CD and driving one lambo with only 2 holidays a year.

/anti-capitalist rant

[Timmeh]

It's not legal, but neither is recording shows off the tv to video.

Incorrect. What you are supposed to do is use tapes as an "oh dear, I couldn't see that the first time around". You are allowed to record things, watch once then erase. Or you're supposed to anyway...

There's no spesific law for the internet, but I assume it'd be about the same. Download, watch once, erase. Seems about right. Thought they can't tell if you've deleted them or not...

[Spoo]

I am right in thinking that when the authorities do go after people for piracy it tends to be prolific uploaders rather than downloaders? Is uploading large amounts of copyrighted material "intent to supply" and thus 'more' illegal than downloading the odd TV episode here and there?

At work we record things off air for archive (I work in a Media Department at a University). We used to archive to SVHS/VHS but now record to harddrive recorders and master to DVD. We are only allowed to record free to air channels for archiving and the person that does the recording has to do it at work (so technically we couldn't tape something at home that we thought would be usefull for teaching and add it to the archive) and has to be an authorised something or other.

Copyright is a brainwrong.

[Terminal Frost]

I don't know if anyone has said this already, or if anyone knows this:

In the UK, we have a government department called Customs And Excise. These people may arrive at your home, at any time and take anything that you own which they believe to be illegal, i.e. VHS, DVD. They may even take your PC for checking. They can do this without any warning or any kind of search warrant, and are the only agency in the UK with this power, even MI5 and MI6 don't have this power. C&E, of course, never use this power as they are far too busy dealing with real criminals at airports and such like.

[Ouch!]

lol! there was a totally interesting article in PC Format Magazine recently. If anyone read it, its very funny. Basically, a guy in france got off scot free for having over 1800 mp3's and vids on his PC because he wasn't using them for comercial use.

in the same article, a spokesperson from one of the prosecution companies said that they're mainly going after those who are UPLOADING music/vids rather than those DOWNLOADING as it is a more serious offence. Hence, the magazine suggested that it may not be wise to have your downloads in a shared folder, ie, ones where people can download them off you. I guess that counts you as an uploading chappy too.

Finally, it seems France are going to the polls with regards to P2P file sharing. If the bill passes, it makes it slightly more legal to download stuff, as long as its not for commercial use. If not, all p2p things will be illegal, including anything with p2p potential, ie, msn messenger.

[MrJoe2006]

^Hey mate , Do you have the issue number with that article ? I would really like to see it :), it would be good if that bill passes in a way it could influence other countries to do the same and make it a little more legal. If only Downloading was legal for personal use it would be great - then they could work to get rid of the uploaders (SLOWLY LETS HOPE :P)

[Ouch!]

ehm.... i probably have the article itself. I'll scan it in later or somet. The magazine's around somewhere. If i find it i'll post it. I only bought it yesterday, the cover had some girl holding some cd's and the main story was blue ray vs hd-dvd.

[Bewildebeast]

MrJoe, it's issue 186 (the latest one)

[MrJoe2006]

Hi all I just found this article:

http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/p2plegalitiesandethics/a/p2p_france.htm?terms=P2P+sites

Seems to be the one you are talking about ?

Just thought i'd post it for anyone interested :)

[Repine]

I think that ALL celebs are massively overpaid.

They aren't that great, they aren't doing anything special, they aren't directly helping anyone in any way.

All they have is a talent, just like a computer programmer or a teacher. Only difference is that they get paid millions for their talents.

As for downloading stuff, I download music and movies illegally with absolutely no intention whatsoever to buy. This may be selfish of me but pah! I don't get paid a fortune for the trhings I do, so I'm not paying a fortune for their crap.

As for software and games, yes I have download them illegally in the past but I try to avoid it where ever possible since I know that these people do have a talent but aren't paid that great.
They spend hours coding software and get paid peanuts while 50 fucking cent sings a few songs at one concert and get millions.

I really don't care about the music or film industry at all, they have far too much money as it is already and I don't see why we should have to pay for their 19 lamborghinis and 4 holidays pr year when they could get along just fine charging £4 per CD and driving one lambo with only 2 holidays a year.

/anti-capitalist rant


Amen

[LeoZ]

To be fair, when you buy a cd it's not as if the money goes straight into the artist's pocket. But I agree with you on the whole 'celebrities have enough money already' thing.

[One.man.band]

If you are talking about illegal things, speeding is illegal, but does that stop many people?

[Ouch!]

lol. please read the title.

I remember a friend of mine telling me that the RIAA only catch about 17 people a year.

I wonder if thats true...

[Soapie]

I think that ALL celebs are massively overpaid.

They aren't that great, they aren't doing anything special, they aren't directly helping anyone in any way.

All they have is a talent, just like a computer programmer or a teacher. Only difference is that they get paid millions for their talents.

As for downloading stuff, I download music and movies illegally with absolutely no intention whatsoever to buy. This may be selfish of me but pah! I don't get paid a fortune for the trhings I do, so I'm not paying a fortune for their crap.

As for software and games, yes I have download them illegally in the past but I try to avoid it where ever possible since I know that these people do have a talent but aren't paid that great.
They spend hours coding software and get paid peanuts while 50 fucking cent sings a few songs at one concert and get millions.

I really don't care about the music or film industry at all, they have far too much money as it is already and I don't see why we should have to pay for their 19 lamborghinis and 4 holidays pr year when they could get along just fine charging £4 per CD and driving one lambo with only 2 holidays a year.

/anti-capitalist rantMusicians don't make anywhere near as much money as you seem to think they do.

[totes]

They do though. When was the last time you saw 50 cent driving around a battered old Nissan through the streets of Philadelphia, with plastic necklaces and squirt rings?

[Bewildebeast]

They do though. When was the last time you saw 50 cent driving around a battered old Nissan through the streets of Philadelphia, with plastic necklaces and squirt rings?Fine, most musicians don't make as much as you think. They get very little per CD/download, as the money has to be divided up between them, the record store/website, their label, management, any songwriters and/or session musicians involved etc etc. Consequently, most artists' bread-and-butter is either fees for live performances or (for more mainstream artists) things like endorsement deals. To make a fortune out of it, you either need to sell a TON of records, have a massive fee for live performances or manage to land big endorsement contracts. 50 Cent has probably manged all three, but the vast majority of musicians don't make much money at all.

[totes]

Too true. If only we got payed as much for ranting about how little we get payed.

[Ouch!]

lol! do people notice that if they put the name of the song into a regular search engine which has audio options (eg altavista) that more often than not you can download them off fan sites. Strangely, i can bet that it would be the fan who'd get sued.

Also, most sites for the band put up full mp3 of some of their songs. As does the likes of purevolume.com and myspace.

Interesting....

[God.]

Yeah... Thb if they were really fans they would probably buy the albums as well. Just for the kicks. I downloaded some chille peppers years ago and then went out and got every album... :D

[totes]

True, I do the same...although it's not like they'll be bothered about my 79p that I didn't spend because I wanted to put it in my "Adam's Life Fund" box. All my money keeps going missing from that, too. No I don't spend it on Micro$oft. Go away.