Homosexuality

[PoofBird]

this thread...

because there was a vivid discussion about this on the old forums.
because other threads where the discussion might arise, can go back on topic.

This is not the place to scream your hatred. It will get you banned.
This is also not the place to scream homophobes are wrong. Though I agree with you, it will not help the debate.
This is not meant to be a place to put homophobes (or gay people, for that matter) to trial. Hypothetical discussions please.

I challenge anyone that reads this, and feels homosexuality is wrong, to come with arguments and try to make me understand why you feel that way. I, in return, expect you to listen to my (and other people's) replies and consider my/our arguments.

Anyone who cares to take off, after the discussion in the Green Day thread (Music forum) ?

[Death]

hmm this is an answer to piesintheory, delete if you wish but i ask you please to read before doing so. your concept of being homosexual is a rather narrow minded if you will. what i mean is your justification for the imorality of homosexuality is something like this 'If there should be gay people it would have been adam and evan not adam and eve.' Now to contest that basing your arguament on religion particularly that of Catholic does not give your arguament alot of grounding. proof that God actually exists is thin to say the least and although you may be a devout christian justifying your biggotry and opression through the bible is not only immoral in itself but is also very 'unchristian' and worse still very similar to that of the kkk or wasps.

I go to church weekly though i cannot say i belive in god. i went through this in a previous debate and i dont feel like going through it once more. what i am saying is that i have a fair grasp on the concept of catholocism and despite all the despicable history one can find in its followers wake beneath this you can often find compassionate catholics who are often the most considerate and contributive members of a local (mine at least) community.

'I just have to say that it has nothing to do with that we straight people can't handle it'. we straight people? Please, don't speak on my behalf. pinkerbell simply said homophobes not straight people, and unwittingly reffered to you as that is what you have shown yourself to be. it might just be me but your stance on representing the masses not just yourself seems to show your need for support of your opinion which unfortunatley you do not have.

'it's still wrong. Now hey, I don't hate them. I have no intention to explain to anyone who is gay that they are wrong' wether you hate them or not doesn't seem to me to be the point. you feel that their choice in sexuality is wrong. why? and if it is wrong then doesn't that also class you as a homphobe? i belive that the defenition of homophobia is a fear of homosexuals and since humans fear what they don't understand then how can you pass judgement.

I am sorry if this wasn't an overly objective post and I would be lying if I said I didn't dissagree morally with the idea of homsexaulity being 'wrong'. people are entitled to their opinions but when an arguament is fuelled under the context that 'wrong' is immoral then i was obliged to answer the statement. People may think that homosexuality is wrong they may think it is right i have no problem with this at all, it is your opinion and to censor this is immoral in itself, but my arguament is that when you change the context and by doing so discriminate against those whose views/belifs etc. you disagree with then i think perhaps you have crossed the line. a theologist wrote that the meaning of life is to find the median in life and do so naturally. by discriminating you are not taking the median rather the extreme view. and by overly loving and hating those who opress you are also taking the extreme view. i may be wrong but its just what goes on in my twisted little mind. if you got this far give urself a cookie + thx for reading.

[PoofBird]

thanks for the cookie ;)

nice essay, good effort

[PiesInTheory]

Yes now i understand that a single phrase cannot be uttered without complete and extensive rebuttal from dozens of others in concern to this topic. Thanks for all your wasted time typing your little essay of sorts.

*eats cookie*

[PoofBird]

if the essay does not reach you, it's not wasted time...

it shapes thought, reaches out to other forum members, and last but not least, earns my respect.

[Destrukto]

And I think you are missing the point of this debate...

It's not aimed at you, although Death did refer to you.
It's about what you think about homosexuality and what people think about it.
I see you've just removed your first text, so people can't refer to it anymore, which is a bit childish if you really stand by your beliefs.

When you find out afterwards you get reactions and can't take that, it doesn't make your argument seem very much more valid, now does it?

Whatyou do or say has consequences, live with it...

(btw, the "I can sleep with women"-comment wasn't very subtle too. Can't any male (or female)?)

[PiesInTheory]

Actually it is a waste of time to believe anything besides what the majority believes here. I'll end up getting kicked out for being a homophobe, why encourage free speech about the subject if that will be the only end result?

Oh that was in reference to what someone else said like "what if you couldn't sleep with a woman". I thought it was stupid to look at it like that, so bam, they got a stupid answer.

[Smeagle]

PiesinTheory.

Stop digging.

Just shut up now, and you may yet have a chance to redeem yourself.

Don't make it any worse for yourself than it already is.


/edit: anyway, back on topic --->

[PiesInTheory]

No no, it is not worth my time to redeem myself.

[Destrukto]

The point he makes is valid though...

Most of us have already taken their standpoint so this debate *is* quite useless as a debate, unless people can give a good reason for having it...

[James Twisleton]

well, its really gay i think

[PiesInTheory]

Thank you destrukto for the ounce of agreement, I should really give up debating this topic.

[PoofBird]

the reason for this debate issss (at least the point it could have)

allowing freedom of speech in the following sense -->

allowing anyone to come with arguments why they are pro or contra something, in the expectation they will listen to arguments from the other side.


piesintheory has only given cliches, nothing to back his ideas up. he has also shown (thus far) not to be open for other opinions himself.

It's not necessary to have piesintheory in this debate. it's not about him at all. We can have this anytime, with anyone.
This should be the place where we step aside from our preset opinions and debate

[Smeagle]

Originally posted by Destrukto
The point he makes is valid though...

Most of us have already taken their standpoint so this debate *is* quite useless as a debate, unless people can give a good reason for having it...

Well this wasn't made exclusivly for a debate, it was also made so people could argue here rather than in other places, filling up threads with loads of off-topic posts, for example the Greenday post.

[PiesInTheory]

Seems I will have fame for that...at least for today...argh.

[Destrukto]

What's the title of the forum Smeagle...?

Right, thought so...

Now please stop refering back to that specific thread.
This is not about a person, but about an issue...

[Micky]

Originally posted by PiesInTheory
Actually it is a waste of time to believe anything besides what the majority believes here.

Upon what do you base that statement? I certainly don't try and agree with the majority, and those that simply blindly agree with 'the masses' have opinions as worthless as arguments without foundation.

[PoofBird]

ok

gay people (most of the time) don't procreate.
new research suggests that homosexuality is partly genetic (and for a big part environmental: if society tolerates gays, we'll be more likely to experiment)

So, how can it be that there is a genetic basis, when those genes aren't given on to the next generations.

(I realize i'm simplifying and popularizing this a lot, apologies go to my lovely GF who is an expert on the following)

a) genes aren't just jigsaw pieces that say what and how something will work. A gene can have multiple functions in different situations.
b) homosexuality might be influenced by a multiple set of genes.

point b is gaining popularity, and I think it makes sense.

say, for sake of argument, there are 10 genes working together for the gay blueprint.
Having all 10 of them makes you gay as shit.
Having none makes you a manly man (or a girly girl)
having 4, 5, or 6 might make you bi (if society permits)
having 7, 8 or 9 might make you gay as well (if society permits) but who knows you'll swing straight.

Now, consider women and men complaining about eachother. He never understands how I feel (blablabla). She's always nagging about stupid things (nagnagnag).

Women might be more atracted to men with 2 or 3 gay genes, as those men understand women better.

same way with men, who'll dig a bird with some gay genes (right fellas? ;) )

this way, the existence of homosexuality helps relationships, makes the survival of mankind easier, and will keep itself in existence.
Because every now and then (quite often) a child will be born that will choose to live a gay lifestyle.

Without accusing (as if...:rolleyes: ) anyone of being gay, it is a fact that those who strongly oppose homosexuality, are afraid of their own emerging homo-erotic feelings.
Another fact: almost every man has had homo-erotic dreams... usually making him very aroused. the fear that this will not go down with the parents and the mates, it will be pushed away with another anti-gay remark in public.

[Death]

Very intersting stuff. thank you for posting it.

[PiesInTheory]

Wow poofbird, that certainly is a different way of looking at it.

"If society tolerates gays, we'll be more likely to experiment"

Besides that part, I [don't mind] see [ing] it all as a possibility. I maybe just don't want to agree with that statement, because it seems that it is already happening. But hey, I think that is a valid way to look at it. And although I refused to be swayed, you seem to know what you are talking about...Nice work.

[SunFlower]

People who are interested in thinking in such a way about homosexuality I can recommend reading the article on this (http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/stalkers/em_homosexuality.html) website.

Abstract:
The survival of a human predisposition for homosexuality can be explained by sexual orientation being a polygenetic trait that is influenced by a number of genes. During development these shift male brain development in the female direction. Inheritance of several such alleles produces homosexuality. Single aleles make for greater sensitivity, empathy, tendermindedness, and kindness. These traits make heterosexual carriers of the genes better fathers and more attractive mates. There is a balanced polymorphism in which the feminizing effect of these alleles in heterosexuals offsets the adverse effects (on reproductive success) of these alleles contribution to homosexuality. A similar effect probably occurs for genes that can produce lesbianism in females.

The whole system survives because it serves to provide a high degree of variability among the personalities of offspring, providing the genotype with diversification, and reducing competition among offspring for the same niches. An allele with a large effect can survive in these circumstances in males, but it is less likely to survive in females.

The birth order effect on homosexuality is probably a byproduct of a biological mechanism that shifts personalities more in the feminine direction in the later born sons, reducing the probability of these sons engaging in unproductive competition with each other.

-------------

Very interesting indeed. During my internship at the University of Bath I made some computer models on the evolution of homosexuality using assumptions from this article.
My dearest PB did remember the global idea, however he did exaggerate a bit about the chances of being / becoming gay ;) So for more detailed information: follow the link!

[Beir_Gee]

I'm not sure I totally agree with this gene thing. I'm not interested in science , and I don't have any knowledge of genetics, but I do have a theory, a rather silly one perhaps? I think that you may fall in love with someone of the opposite sex, even though you consider yourself a hereosexual. Ofcourse, the chance is slimmer than if you were a bi- or homosexual, but who knows? Even though I like women and think of myself as a heterosexual, who knows? If you meet someone and you think that person is the love of your life, why should you be stopped because some groups in society don't like homosexuality? Why should it matter what gender that person is? Do what you want I say, as long as it's not against the law.

And speaking of the law, I heard of a homosexual couple in America that was arrested for having sex, while they were at it! It's fucked up that there's actually a law against anal sex in 13 states, but when the police breaks down your door while you're having sex, something is terribly terribly wrong.

[nimbleandwitty]

erm... poofbird, do you mind me asking if your name refers to anything?

[PiesInTheory]

Yes I do agree with you there beir-gee. It is messed up that the police can just run in and say HEY HOLD ON THAT'S NOT RIGHT PUT SOME DAMN CLOTHES ON SO WE CAN ARREST YOU, because that seems to be violating at least a few of the personal freedoms of the United States citizen. As far as I'm concerned what people do behind closed doors is not my business, and I want to leave it at that, but evidently there needs to be "enforcing" of anti gay laws in certain states, no matter the consequences to privacy. That is how I understand it anyways, and that, like the violations of freedoms due to the Patriot Act, is wrong.

[Beir_Gee]

No, PiesInTheory, it is not an anti-gay law, it is an anti-SODOMY law. That means that any type of analsex is forbidden, man-man, man-woman, man-animal (yuck) etc. Which means that if you're caught with your little willy between your girlfriends buttcheeks, you will get arrested wether you are a homosexual or not.
because that seems to be violating at least a few of the personal freedoms of the United States citizen.
If you live in the USA and think you are free, think again. Did you ever stop to think what has happened to certain people that bothered the government or the CIA? If you haven't, do it now.

"I woke up and smelt the coffe, and do you know what? It smelt fucking maple nut crunch!"

[PiesInTheory]

Yeah sorry, that's what I meant, I just couldn't think of the S word.

[Beir_Gee]

So, do you think analsex between a man and a woman is OK?

[PiesInTheory]

no actually I view that as like...the human body wasn't made that way, let's try and use it correctly

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by nimbleandwitty
erm... poofbird, do you mind me asking if your name refers to anything?

LOL

Poof is my very good friend and not (totally ;) ) gay...
The name comes from an act of ours :)
We play very very very pink flamingo's

We especially prey on male passers-by :D

[Beir_Gee]

So, you feel that anyone has the right to do whatever they want in the bedroom, as long as it's not anal sex? How do you feel about oral sex then PiesInTheory?

[Twiglet]

Basically, I'm a Christian and I believe that homosexuality is wrong, this doesn't mean that i'm like 'eeeeuuuuuuuwwwww, tthhhheeeeyyyyy''''reeeee gggggaaaaayyyyy!!!!!' it means that i believe God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. No-one is born homosexual so how do they bcome it?

[Destrukto]

Not to turn this into a religious discussion, but I can't imagine there are still people out there that take the Genesis 2 story literally.

Can you explain to me why you are ignoring Genesis 1 completely Twiglet? I'm just curious, because I seem to meet lots of Christians that do...

[Smeagle]

Originally posted by Twiglet
No-one is born homosexual so how do they bcome it?

How do you know whether people are born homosexual or not?

How can you possibly tell the sexuality of a person, until they reach puberty and start being attracted by members of the opposite/same sex?

I highly doubt you will be able to find evidence which even suggests, never mind proves, that people who turn out to be gay aren't born that way.

[PiesInTheory]

Whoa that's a very interesting theory pinkerbell, but just like quoting genesis, that can't be a universal theory either right? But still, any explanation really can't sum up the entire populations beliefs anyways. Yeah and since nobody is really born gay, since they don't experience feelings either way at first (thanks for that point smeagle) it can't really be proven either way right? I mean if people are born gay or not can't be noticed if they don't show signs either way until they reach their early teen years. Hmm...just something to think about I guess.

[Micky]

Originally posted by Smeagle
I highly doubt you will be able to find evidence which even suggests, never mind proves, that people who turn out to be gay aren't born that way.

Indeed. There has also been investigation into whether someone's gender is purely physical (i.e. are we born a particular gender, or is it thrust upon us by what our body dictates us to be, so a male child could be brought up with a female mental state).

[Pie Diddy]

Originally posted by Twiglet
i believe God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Alan Partridge fan?

I, personally, am bi, and I (obviously) think that men should experiment (i did) and that anal sex (straight or gay) is fine because people should be able to do what they like in the bedroom. I don't try everything in the bedroom (stuff like Shizer or piss etc.) because of my own beliefs about stuff. But I don't mind people that try stuff like that because that's their choice, not mine.

[Beef Magic]

I think in English law it's over 18 for two males to have anal sex, while the same age for a male and a female.

HOWEVER. In Northern Ireland, it's illegal for a male and a female, and for two male's, you probably have to be 21 or 30 or something obsurd.

[Pie Diddy]

Originally posted by Pinkerbell
The only thing that makes me mad, and I can only speak for what goes on in the US, is that it seems it has become trendy to say that you are bisexual. And I understand that some people really are and that is fine, but it seems like nowadays, girls will kiss other girls just to look cool for a guy! It's so stupid! Especially that Girls Gone Wild shite on TV... that REALLY irks me, because every young, beautiful, busty woman IS NOT BI!! It just does not happen, but they will gladly do anything just to be on TV. People piss me off...... I hate people.

Please, girls especially, DO NOT pretend to be bisexual just to get laid. Really, you make all of us look like idiots!

We don't have that problem in the UK (at least where I live) but for for people here it seems to be that being bi or gay is evil and loads of people take the piss out of you, which is awful

[Smeagle]

Originally posted by Pinkerbell
The only thing that makes me mad, and I can only speak for what goes on in the US, is that it seems it has become trendy to say that you are bisexual. And I understand that some people really are and that is fine, but it seems like nowadays, girls will kiss other girls just to look cool for a guy! It's so stupid! Especially that Girls Gone Wild shite on TV... that REALLY irks me, because every young, beautiful, busty woman IS NOT BI!! It just does not happen, but they will gladly do anything just to be on TV. People piss me off...... I hate people.

I have to agree, and would like to add another point about "bisexuals".

I hate straight or gay people who are just so desparate that they will have anyone, no matter what sex they are, how much of a crap personality they have, etc. and then claim to be bisexual! They're not bisexual, they're just desperate!

They're giving people like me, who are actually genuinely bisexual, a bad name. There's already enough prejudice from straight and gay people saying we're just sad and desperate, without people like this re-enforcing the image.

[xxcabbageheadxx]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and mine is that homosexuals deserve every single right that most heterosexuals take for granted, such as marriage. The definition of a marital union is not "a man and a woman who have exchanged vows." The definition is "a couple who have exchanged vows and who care and love for one another and will do anything at any length for their sake."

You do not have to condone homosexuality. But you absolutely must NOT persecute people simply because of who they love. You may think that doing so is perfectly normal because what homosexuals are doing is "wrong," but what you are doing is also immoral. If a homosexual attacked YOU for being straight, I'd highly doubt you'd say, "Oh, it's all right for them to do that, because heterosexuality is wrong to them." No, you'd hightail your redneck ass down to the police headquarters.

Sorry, sorry. Got a little carried away there.

Also, remember that in most of the passages in the Bible in which homosexuality is condoned are part of the Old Testament, the book of Leviticus, which is a very disturbing book. If you are to hate the practice of homosexuality, than you would have to believe that wearing a fabric made of a mixture of cotton and wool is a sin. It says so in the Bible, and if you want to follow the word of the Gospel, than you aren't a "true Christian" if you just pick out bits and pieces.

[xxcabbageheadxx]

Whoops. I meant the parts of the Bible that do NOT condone homosexuality. :nana:

[SemiCircle]

here's my two cents (where does that saying come from, anyway?)

first off, i am not gay, bi, or anything like that.

homosexuality has been observed in a variety of different animals, including sheep, dolphins and monkeys. (i saw it on tv, so it must be true.) it's caused by a variety of things, but the dissected brains of a couple (no, not actually a couple) of gay sheep showed abnormalities which scientists suspect may have had something to do with it. not enough evidence to prove it, though. the point is that it seems to be a natural thing, whatever causes it.
the bible does not condone homosexuality, but i don't think that catholicism doesn't (but i'm not a catholic, so i'm not sure). anglicans seem to be split 50/50. baptists and mormons are crazy anyway. for anti-baptist humour, visit http://www.landoverbaptist.org. the funniest bit is the guestbook.
suffice to say that, unless you're a crazy "take the bible at face value" type, you shouldn't scourn homosexuals for religious reasons.


on the other hand, i don't like the concept of homosexuality. (surely there's a shorter polite word. any gay people out there, what do you not mind being called?) i find the idea of anal sex repulsive. probably something to do with scatophobia. ( i like that word. i wonder if it's right?) i have nothing against gays in particular, i am merely disgusted by the act.

homosexual marriages should not be allowed. marriage, as i see it, is for the formation of a family unit appropriate for procreation bringing up children. i don't think children should be born outside of a stable relationship: single parents are a bad idea. one person doesn't have enough time in this day and age to look after a child properly, and the presence of a father/mother figure is important in the child's development. in a homosexual couple, the former problem is dealt with, but not the latter. for this reason mainly i stand by my view.
just for the record, i do not condone any marriage where children are not the ultimate purpose, gay, straight, whatever. and if a couple want to have children without being married, that's ok too, so long as the child's needs are dealt with.

[Jolly Pyruvate]

Originally posted by SemiCircle
here's my two cents (where does that saying come from, anyway?)
Here ya go. (http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/meanings/393950.html)




Originally posted by SemiCircle

homosexual marriages should not be allowed. ...

...just for the record, i condone any marriage where children are not the ultimate purpose, gay, straight, whatever.
Make up your mind.

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by SemiCircle
i find the idea of anal sex repulsive. probably something to do with scatophobia. ( i like that word. i wonder if it's right?) i have nothing against gays in particular, i am merely disgusted by the act.


pft!

homosexuality is not defined by anal sex.
Not only are you focusing on gay sex where-as being gay is about falling in love with the same sex and wanting to spent your life with them. Just like with straight people, sex is important but not the main thing.
You are also focussing on gay sex between to men, forgetting the other half: two women. You're not disgusted by that act? Weird.

Most important for you to know: only a fraction of male gay couples practise anal sex. A lot of them don't.
Also: many straight couples practise anal sex and enjoy it. It's not a gay thing.
Your disgust of anal sex is fine with me you're missing out here ;) but it's in no way a reason for 'not liking the concept of homosexuality'

[SemiCircle]

damn. sorry for misleading you. i was unclear.

to clarify, i have nothing against a man loving another man, woman loving woman, whatever. i merely dislike anal sex, and hence the consummation of any man/man couple.
look at it this way. if i were to come across...-> i would feel...
2 blokes walking down the street holding hands -> ok
2 blokes in a restaurant looking deep into each other's eyes -> ok
2 blokes at a party kissing -> a bit awkward, but ok
2 blokes at a party on a sofa, one with his hand down the other's trousers -> very awkward, but ok
2 blokes naked in a bedroom, *ahem* coupling -> seriously grossed out.

i know that straight people practice anal, and i find that just as nasty. (sorry about not making that clear.) as i said, scatophobia (it's not in dictionary.com, but to derrive the meaning look up scatology, and remove the -logy suffix and replace it with -phobia). i think the reason i have nothing against lesbian sex is obvious.


if i were to wake up one morning and discover i was gay, i'd decide to be celibate. i wouldn't be filled with self-loathing.

and IS there something in the name, poofbird? or have you already answered that?


only ugly girls should be allowed to be lesbians. they don't procreate, and a beautiful lesbian is hence removing herself from the gene pool, which means that in future generations girls will, on average, be uglier. thus if beautiful lesbianism is allowed to continue, in a thousand generations or so the human race will be getting really ugly, and everyone will have lost out. think of the children!

[PoofBird]

there is nothing in my name, Destrukto answered that question for me.
We have a theatre act in which we play flamingoes.

thank you for clearing up your previous post, i understand better what you mean.

still: no need for celibacy if you would happen to be gay. Many gay couples don't practise anal sex. Maybe for the same reasons as you wouldn't, or for health reasons, or because they're very well hung... many other forms of sexual pleasure are possible

my point was: gay sex does not equal anal sex...

you're trying very hard, not to look like a homophobe or anything suggesting something likewise. You try to find the right words to make your points, and not be misunderstood. Good for you!

realising my point about sex could remove all suggestions around your scatophobia being anti-gay

[Fruiterian]

Sorry I have to torture you with my n00bish comments. I'm just getting familiar with these boards, and I'm already finding them to my liking. Just wait... -_O

I see nothing wrong with homosexuality. I'm not homosexual myself, nor am I bi. It's your business, not mine. Who am I to say if it's evil or not? Your decision. It's a matter of perspective.

First of all, I believe that being homosexual is pretty much the same thing as being heterosexual: you just ARE. You know? You go through puberty, you become attracted to certain people, et cetera.

Marriage? I don't see why not. Sure, the original purpose of marriage in the earlier days was to have children. But not so much anymore. Over time it's evolved to become a bond of love and sharing. There are plenty of children up for adoption, and just a couple is homosexual, that doesn't mean that they can't be loving parents and that their children will be different than others.

And as long as we're on the topic of sex, I don't see anything wrong with it. It's your business. Sodomy laws shouldn't be in place, I know that there was a semi-big deal about that over here in the states a while back. It's your business.

Pretty much, it's you, not me. Go and have a ball.

Excuse me if I sound terribly naive, however. I'm only turning fifteen next week.

:rawk:
heh, I like that one. ^^

[PiesInTheory]

You are so much more valid since you have removed yourself from the topic entirely, explaining everything directly from third person. Hooray for you for not being all biased like me. I think if not just us was like "what you do is your business" then there wouldn't be a problem. Maybe a general frowning upon, but people wouldn't be flaming all over the place about the wrongness of it (like I have often done).

"my point was: gay sex does not equal anal sex..."

If that's true, I feel much better about not being so much against homosexuality anymore, that was one of the "umm...hey that's not right" kinda things. Dang you forum guys, you swayed my opinion, I ain't going all the way to agree though.

[SemiCircle]

woo, a successful debate:D !
you know you're doing well when you get someone to change his mind.

[PoofBird]

:D

yay for listening each other out, being reasonable, and getting to some form of understanding

[Fruiterian]

Um... yay? I've only been at these forums for two days, and I never posted on the old ones... O_O

But understanding is a good thing. Vewwy good thing.

[The Angry Elvis]

Being a Christian, I am expected to fight against homeosexuality with fervour and passion, and campagin for all things hetero.
Don't take this for a rant on homosexuality. Theoretically, i think it's perfectly ok. As i ahve said in other forums like this, I don't beleiev the rules layed down in the old testament of the bible. Homosexuality is fine by me, as long as it is in a loving and respectful relationship. However, due to my macho bravado imposed upon me as a testoreone fueled teenage, the idea of homeosexual relations seems weird to me, but that's only the effect of years of traditional Christian teaching, so I asume my feelings towards will change as i get older.

[Fruiterian]

depends on how far it's been ingrained into your head. Many of your beliefs come from your parents in many situations, if your parents are blatantly homophobic, it's possible that you may have at least some of that when you grow older.

As for the whole thing being alien, it's probably the one thing that should be focused upon in gay rights campaigns. Sure, it may seem alien at first, but it's natural. As someone mentioned before, homosexuality has been observed in animals. Once that hurdle is cleared, I think it would probably be easier to fight for the rights that they deserve. 'course, there would still be all these pious people fighting against the rights...

[The Angry Elvis]

Not being gay, I dont mind if my aversion to gay relations doesnt change, but in my current situation i think in theory gayness is fine, so i can still respect my gay freinds in thir relationships and talk about it.

[Rhaeven]

Well, this is a tricky little bugger, isn't it? -no pun intended-

First topic: Homosexuality itself. This I have no problem with at all. People can do what they want, when they want. That's all there is to it in my opinion. As long as homosexuals don't try and force themselves upon me, that's cool.

Secondly, marriage. This is one thing I don't agree with. I don't see why homosexuals are DEMANDING the right to be married, when the marriage thing was never intended for them. It's a holy matrimony, man and wife thing. I never saw the big deal anyway though.

Thirdly, gay rights. You know what I'm talking about. Big parades with lots of floats and gay people all dressed up. THIS is what pisses me off about the whole thing. If gay people want to be treated equally and just like everyone else (as they should be) then why do they walk around in costumes that make it VERY obvious that they are gay, all singing 'we're queer, we're here!' and trying to force the fact down everyone's throats that they like to have sex with men.

because that's what it is. me being heterosexual means I like to have sex with women, I don't run around saying 'I like having sex with women!' so why should a gay person do the same?

discuss, if you will.

[Rhaeven]

Originally posted by Pinkerbell
Why shouldn't they be able to do as they please? If that's how they express themselves?

I didn't say they couldn't do it. I said the shouldn't if they want to be treated like everyone else. If you don't act normally you won't be treated normally.

I can respect homosexuals who act like everyone else (except fall in love with, and have sex with men) but it's when they act like 'fags' or 'queens' or whatever, thats when they piss me off. That's nothing to do with being homosexual. Straight people can act like queers if they want, and that would make them just as annoying.

[Destrukto]

Secondly, marriage. This is one thing I don't agree with. I don't see why homosexuals are DEMANDING the right to be married, when the marriage thing was never intended for them. It's a holy matrimony, man and wife thing. I never saw the big deal anyway though.

Church marriage was...
Civil marriage is about taxbenefits from which every OR none committed couple should be able to benefit...
It's a way of society saying what kind of arrangement they are willing to encourage...
If two-people couples are go, then for ALL gendercombos...
If totally free, none...

Thirdly, gay rights. You know what I'm talking about. Big parades with lots of floats and gay people all dressed up. THIS is what pisses me off about the whole thing. If gay people want to be treated equally and just like everyone else (as they should be) then why do they walk around in costumes that make it VERY obvious that they are gay, all singing 'we're queer, we're here!' and trying to force the fact down everyone's throats that they like to have sex with men.

Have you ever seen the footage on suffragette movements, both first and second (and third) wave...?
They were just as selfexpressing, especially the second wave in the 60s-70s...
These movements sometimes a bit out of hand and go to extremes, but when you have been surpressed, you want to enjoy a bit of freedom...
At least we all are allowed to join in now...

[Rhaeven]

Have you ever seen the footage on suffragette movements, both first and second (and third) wave...?
They were just as selfexpressing, especially the second wave in the 60s-70s...
These movements sometimes a bit out of hand and go to extremes, but when you have been surpressed, you want to enjoy a bit of freedom...
At least we all are allowed to join in now...

The point that I was trying to make was, if you want to be treated like everyone else, then act like everyone. Makes perfect sense.

Gay people aren't supressed anymore, are they? I mean, how would they be? Because homophobes beat them up? We already have laws to protect gay people from getting beaten up. The same laws that keep straight people from getting beaten up.

[PoofBird]

Gays too outrageous?

I think, and two words come to mind: Spring Break!

Just downloaded a spring break video (thought it was proper porn) and it had all sorts of gits.

Probably from being supressed so long, studying and all, that they feel they should flip out their boobies.

Or think of popular beach resorts, or apres ski parties, or raves, or Reading festival, or the freemasons, or the Tories, or tupperware parties, or internetforums...

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by Rhaeven
The point that I was trying to make was, if you want to be treated like everyone else, then act like everyone. Makes perfect sense.

Gay people aren't supressed anymore, are they? I mean, how would they be? Because homophobes beat them up? We already have laws to protect gay people from getting beaten up. The same laws that keep straight people from getting beaten up.

True, in some cases...

In most cases I like a bit of color on festive breaks, it's not really different from images from Rio de Janeiro carnivals...

Or even Carnaval like we have, and which is a perfectly normal Christian holiday in parts of Catholic Holland...

Fornication in the streets happens there too, and you don't see a lot of that at gay parades...

[Pie Diddy]

You could question why some gay people act like 'queens' or whatever, but you have to ask yourself why some girls act like that aswell. I am kind like that, not in an extremist way or anything, and it's just because I feel comfortable acting that way and it's very natural.
Secondly Rhaeven on your point about marriage, it's to celebrate the love between two people (whatever gender) with the world.
Your other point about gay rights parades, is stupid. You could argue that but, only a fraction of gays take part in these events, and there are anti-gay marches where people do say 'I have sex with women' and that they are homophobic so shouldn't we be allowed to have the same rights those people have to protest as we have to celebrate our sexuality?
I hope this has cleared up a few things

[Rhaeven]

Originally posted by Pie Diddy
You could question why some gay people act like 'queens' or whatever, but you have to ask yourself why some girls act like that aswell. I am kind like that, not in an extremist way or anything, and it's just because I feel comfortable acting that way and it's very natural.
Secondly Rhaeven on your point about marriage, it's to celebrate the love between two people (whatever gender) with the world.
Your other point about gay rights parades, is stupid. You could argue that but, only a fraction of gays take part in these events, and there are anti-gay marches where people do say 'I have sex with women' and that they are homophobic so shouldn't we be allowed to have the same rights those people have to protest as we have to celebrate our sexuality?
I hope this has cleared up a few things

I think anti-gays are silly too. I don't support that kind of march.

I don't go around flouting my heterosexuality and making sure people know I'm straight, that's just my point.

[Garrett]

Originally posted by Rhaeven
I think anti-gays are silly too. I don't support that kind of march.

I don't go around flouting my heterosexuality and making sure people know I'm straight, that's just my point.

I hate all marches equally. And besides...what does marching accomplish? You could just as easily go home and throw a "gay rights" party..

[squealpiggy]

I am often astonished that people even care enough to be "anti gay". Henry Rollins said:

What does a straight man really want to do, he wants to get his penis, put it somewhere warm, move it around, ejaculate and go to sleep. What does a gay man want to do, he wants to get his penis, put it somewhere warm, move it around, ejaculate and go to sleep. An orifice is an orifice.

And it's true. I don't care where another man wants to put his dick, as long as it isn't in me or my wife it's none of my business. The weird thing is when strangers take issue with that, especially when the reasons behind the issues are religious.

Incidentally I deliberately left out any reference to lesbianism, not because I am unfamiliar with it or because I am burying my head in the sand Victorian style, but purely because I don't have a fanny so I don't have a frame of reference.

[Garrett]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
I am often astonished that people even care enough to be "anti gay". Henry Rollins said:

What does a straight man really want to do, he wants to get his penis, put it somewhere warm, move it around, ejaculate and go to sleep. What does a gay man want to do, he wants to get his penis, put it somewhere warm, move it around, ejaculate and go to sleep. An orifice is an orifice.

And it's true. I don't care where another man wants to put his dick, as long as it isn't in me or my wife it's none of my business. The weird thing is when strangers take issue with that, especially when the reasons behind the issues are religious.

Incidentally I deliberately left out any reference to lesbianism, not because I am unfamiliar with it or because I am burying my head in the sand Victorian style, but purely because I don't have a fanny so I don't have a frame of reference.

Well said.

[Bobbo]

If I had my gay lover in the throws of my all consuming zombie love and the cops showed up, I would make sure and finish what I started before the cops put the cuffs on. Besides the obvious reasons and the potential for being seriously emotionally scarred if you didn't finish the act of zombie love, everyone knows that police are almost exclusively gay so I bet they would go easy on you because they would be aroused by watching you go at it like a crazed gay zombie.:nana: :confused: :nana:

[Sorcha]

I don't have a problem with gays or lesbians and I don't think anyone else who is straight should have a problem with them unless the gays and lesbians are hitting on them which would be rather disturbing and a cause for lots of running. It's just their personal preference to what they do with their lives and how they want to live them and who they want to live them with.

Everyone's just afraid of something that's different. If every average woman on this planet was a lesbian, and every average man was gay, all the straight people would be subjected to the same taunts as straights subject gays to right now. (Okay, I know there wouldn't be any humans if everyone was gay, but that's besides the point.)

And as far as I'm concerned, homophobes are people who are so unsure about their own sexuality, any mention of something considered out of the ordinary or strange, they go spazz.

And, if I may, what does everyone think about bi-sexuals?

I do believe that everyone has the potential to be bi or even totally converted, so never trust a man who can be left alone in a room with a tea-cosy and not try it on...

[squealpiggy]

I'm a man, I was in a "relationship" of sorts for longer than I should have been with a girl who cheated on me with a string of men, women, tea-cozies and whatever else she could find. All the while this was happening she was making semi-deliberate controlling efforts to wear down my self-esteem. I was a wreck by the time we broke up and it took me a while to get back my self esteem to transform me into the arrogant narcissist I am today!

The point of this is that it's wrong to say that you wouldn't trust a man with a tea cozy. I actually think that men would be less likely to be gay than women, even left in a room alone together.

[Bobbo]

What if your tea cozy was straight and you tried to be gay with it?

[squealpiggy]

That would be terribly distressing for all parties involved. Unless the teacosy had a hidden bummed by human fetish.

Do teacoasies even HAVE gender?

[notmarcie]

I'm bi sexual and female (well last time I looked). I have had a male partner for the last four years, but I don't know if I always will.
Its a huge cliche, but love doesn't discriminate, so why should anyone else. Oh the other hand I don't chat up every male i see so it doesn't mean that I'll chat up every female I see either. If I approach a woman and she is straight then I hope she is mature enough to not run screaming, I am not going to pounce on her, just as I wouldn't pounce on a bloke I fancied.

On the subject of marriage
I am never going to be joined in holy matrimony, because I am not at all religious , but if I should end up with a woman as my life partner then I would like to know she is afforded the same rights that a male partner would be.

Right now the law of this country doesn't support same sex couples, they don't have the same pension rights,. In some cases where one partner has been taken to hospital they haven't been considered to be a relative and been denied the right to se their loved one. Think about that for one second. The person you love most in the world is dying in hospital and you will not be allowed to see them before they die.

Gay sex as someone pointed out is not anal sex, just as straight sex is not just about vaginal penetration. Sex is every thing from kissing to swinging from the light fitting with a cucumber in every orrifice (not that I do that). We shouldn't be come overly focused on penetration as the only form of sex.
As for the argument that same sex couples have sex but don't procreate, and thats not natural.. I counter this by asking how many straight couples have sex and don't procreate. If you are going to use the unnatural argument then you better make sure you never ever use any form of contraception or have any kind of sex that will not make a baby. To do otherwise would be unnatural and hypocritical to boot.

The age of consent for anal sex is 16 for everyone, male and female and male and male(the lowering of the age was sneaked through in a very late night vote in about 2001). In fact that is the age of consent for all sexual practises now, including oral sex.

Except if you're a lesbian, then you don't even exist in the eyss of the law.

[PoofBird]

Good points, notmarcie

and to SazZa:
I don't think there is such a thing as gay or straight.
Or in other words: everyone is bi, to an extend.
Some are very bi, attracted to both sexes, others only slightly..

also: I don't mind at all being hit on by a gay guy. I do think it's flattering and fun. If he's nice I might flirt back....
I probably won't go back to his appartment, I'll just say I'm not interested, isn't too hard.

[squealpiggy]

straight sex is not just about vaginal penetration

Pah! Don't start on about that "foreplay" myth! Next you'll be trying to make me believe in the "female orgasm"!

I'll just say I'm not interested

That will let him know where he stands...

isn't too hard.

That will make sure that he isn't interested either!

[Bobbo]

I know all of you are having a pleasant little debate here about the pros and cons of homosexuality. I think thats really quaint and all but I am about fed up with it. Why you might ask? BECAUSE YOU PEOPLE HAVE NOW TURNED MY TEA COZY GAY!!!!! All it does now is whine about wanting oolong. I hope all of you are happy. I don't even think that it had a genetic predisposition to turn gay in the first place but thanks to you lot you have blown that theory completely out of the water. What is worse about the whole thing is that my tea cozy has been hitting on all of my power tools and I think it may turn a couple of them gay as well. Not that I mind gay power tools as I only use them to decapitate the odd victim. But think of the hassle I will have to endure when I take my drill to someones head and they start laughing at ME because my drill is wearing pink, has a lovely hair-do and is beautifully dressed!!!:shock:

[donkey_pie]

I think that anyone has a right to love anyone they want to, and not being gay i cannot say that I understand how they feel, but why should they be questioned for loving anyone?
I think that people are just scared of what they don't understand

[GauntletBob]

In my opinion, homosexuality is a way of life and freedom of speech. It is constitutional and hurts no one unless we reach an extreme. I know many homosexual people and they are as great as the next person. Bottom line, I accept people for who they are, so I speak for myself and only myself. And, in case anyone is going to hate me for what I have said, I am, indeed, heterosexual. So, whether you belive me or not, I am sticking up for one of my best friends.

[squealpiggy]

I'm not sticking up for anyone. I think it's a matter of common sense and decency. Live and let live is what I say.

[sjaak]

I have never really seen any difference between gay, bi, hetero...whatever..
they're just people who love other people...this might seem a bit of a crappy argument, but I really don't see what's different about loving someone who happens to be the same sex..

I am a rather strong believer in equality of all people (must have gotten that from my mom, she was a huge feminist), and even if I wasn't, I would be "pro-gay", just in case I ever turn out to be gay myself:)

[gopherboy]

So is buggering illegal in the USA between males? It perfectly legal over here in the UK - just so all the catholic priests don't get into to much trouble probably. It's still illegal between Males and Females though, so you'd better watch out for that crack squad (pardon the pun) of police ready to arrest you at the first sign of anal entrance. I cant believe so many people can be against being gay because of their religion, it's so laughable. I could start a religion right now, all i need is a few gullable people and voila new religion. I mean the Mormon religion is only a few hundred years old and the bloke who started that was visited by God when he was by himself, no witnesses and yet people believed him and joined. Although offering incentives like multiple wives is cheating a bit. I bet Henry VIII wished he had thought of that one when he started the Church of England. Who knows, maybe a future monarch (Prince William) will be gay and he'll start a whole new religion for all you gay people out there.

On another note, I was out in Canal Street in Manchester (the gay capital of England) the other day with my gay pal and got the district impression that he wasnt to pleased with the fact that I got approached by 2 people and he didnt pull at all. Actually i've noticed that i probably get eyed up by more men than women, bugger! (bad choice of word :) )

Personally I can see a male and know that he's attractive (Taye Diggs) but i'm not attracted to them if you see what i mean.

P.S im drunk and i've just been bitten by a mouse so if this is all crap blame the mouse not me.

[Fruiterian]

There were anti-sodomy laws in place in some states, but the Supreme Court repealed the laws in Texas, so say bye-bye to the sodomy laws in other states.

It was technically illegal for EVERYONE as far as I know, male/female, male/male. However, as far as I know, it was only being used against homosexual couples. Stupid Texas. No wonder we got a shitty president.

[squealpiggy]

was it a gay mouse?

[gopherboy]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
was it a gay mouse?

Dunno, it's a bit hard to notice a limp wrist on an animal that runs on all fours. He did drive a Smart car though so maybe....

[squealpiggy]

It bit you to the sounds of happy hardcore and handbag house?

[gopherboy]

No it was more to the sound of me screaming like a girl/gay bloke. I allowed to say things like that by the way becuase i have gay friends. I'm like those white fellers that hang around with black dudes and use the N word. Although my girlfriend is black and she hates those kinds of people.... maybe I should reconsider.

P.S gay bars rock. They have these gay sex packs on the bars which contain 2 condoms and 2 packs of lubricant - very handy when your a cheap skate student like me.... The packaging is a bit graphic though - it's got real willies on it :eek:

The lubricant is probably also suitable for bumming crows squealpiggy...

[gopherboy]

Originally posted by PoofBird
If he's nice I might flirt back....


Shh, I know this is a double post but this is directed at a particular person so let me off please.

You should flirt with the ugly ones too poofbird, it makes there day. Don't do it with anyone that looks like they could hold you down though :D

[notmarcie]

Glad to see the bumming crows phrase has spread here too . Next stop world domination

[squealpiggy]

gopherboy do I know you at all? Because I have only mentioned crow-bumming the once on here.

[gopherboy]

Nope, it's on your profile... is it just crows or the whole crow family? I saw a jay a couple of months ago - gorgeous bird :) I am quite local to you though, Manchester Oxford Road only a few stops up the track from me.

[sjaak]

Originally posted by gopherboy
Shh, I know this is a double post but this is directed at a particular person so let me off please.

You should flirt with the ugly ones too poofbird, it makes there day. Don't do it with anyone that looks like they could hold you down though :D


you (not really you, more.. people) should flirt with every1, even if there is mutual uninterest between you. if every1 would do this, every1's day is bound to be made every day :)

[squealpiggy]

Hahaha I forgot I put bumming crows in my profile. It's left over from my goth days!

Bumming crows is probably not OK unlike being gay which is fine.

[felixdahousecat]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
It bit you to the sounds of happy hardcore and handbag house?

Whats wrong with the occaisional happy hardcore tune. I know that most of it is just a pap 4/4 bass beat with a speeded up abba track over it but there is the odd decent 1 (although none come to mind at the mo)

[squealpiggy]

I think you have adequately described what is wrong with Happy Hardcore.

But I didn't say that there was anything wrong with it. However I have never met anyone who liked it and wasn't gay.

[Fanta]

i think this thread needs a new thread if that makes sense(?)

anywho gay people: i'm not bothered. people can do what they like. but i am bi so would say this. and no that does not just mean i am desperate. i really like those bobbly liquorish allsorts...

[squealpiggy]

being bisexual doubles your chance of getting some!

[gopherboy]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
being bisexual doubles your chance of getting some!

Or doubles the amount of people that can turn you down :D

[squealpiggy]

Noone would turn me down because I AM HANDSOME!

Umm...hang on no... OK noone could turn me down because I AM RICH! Actually no I'm not rich either... well I'm getting married in January so it's moot (and thus I win! Woo!)

[Seraph]

I have NOTHING against gay people...
I have many friends that are gay...

But since im straight, if another girl tries anything with me.. im not too comfortable with it - it has happened before... :(

[Fanta]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
being bisexual doubles your chance of getting some!

no way. because women are not as easy as men. my god men are so easy its laughable...

[Fanta]

women hit on seraph but not me? whats wrong with this world...?

[felixdahousecat]

Originally posted by Fanta
no way. because women are not as easy as men. my god men are so easy its laughable...

Women aren't as easy as men? you've never been to Grimsby have you?

happy hardcore is quite gay music, but i'm bi which is sorta like half gay so that could explain it

[Fanta]

nope never been to grimsby. hmm i thought i would have something weird and witty to say but i don't, hmm... octopus lozenge. :cool: that'll do...

[gopherboy]

Originally posted by Fanta
nope never been to grimsby. hmm i thought i would have something weird and witty to say but i don't, hmm... octopus lozenge. :cool: that'll do...

Is that a lozenge for octopi or a lozenge to guard against octopi?

[PoofBird]

ok, this was about 25 posts of small talk...

could we get back to debating?

[Reddig]

Yeah, I could try.

I am what you would probobly call a homophobe. The idea of snogging another man is disgusting for me, not to mention a vision of more hard-core actions. One of my worst hightmares is my potential son coming back from a party one night and bringing a male friend home:

"Hi dad, this is Bob and he is my boyfriend"

The horror...


Not a good start, huh? You'd probobly think - grate, another narrow minded, konservative gay-hater. Heh, I don't know myself - maybe I am a narrow minded can. Maybe. But i gave the issue some thought a few times, and i think it's more complicated.

For me being a gay is comparable to being someone who likes dressing up in women clothes or being an amateur of bondage or whatever. That's because I always think about it in categories - how would i feel being one? How would i look like/feel like if i was gay. And then i think of one of my friends putting a tongue in my mouth... Yauch, brrr, ptfu...

I do understand, that there are people, who just are this way, and i'm not saying it's bad - just as i'm not saying that dressing up in your ma's bra and stockings is something evil. Then again i know, that i wouldn't be capable of either, and the thought itself makes me feel uneasy.


Another thing I dont like about gays (not all of them in this matter) is the looks of some of them. As long as i find nothing wrong about being a normal person, just homosexual, i can't stand the people (gays and lespians) who radically show off with their homosexuality. When i look at those people at the parades, dressed in stupid clothes, acting like pervert clouns i can's stop myself from disliking them.


And there is one more thing I hate. People saying "Oh, i actually have nothing against gays, but..."

Yeah, like i'm tolerant as long as there are no gays in the neighbourhood.

[PoofBird]

Reddig, I admire your honesty, as you know this is not a popular view here,

but I am very glad that I am not your son

(no I'm not gay)

[Fanta]

Yeah i really admire reddig's honesty. I don't think you are norrow minded reddig. and have to say that people who parade their sexuality about piss me off too.

as long as you don't beat people up or anything - least of all your immaginary son.

[notmarcie]

what constitues a parade ?

Would you be pissed off if I held my partners hand in public ? He's male ? What if I kissed him


What about 5 years ago when I was seeing a femme lesbian, or before that when I had a fling-ette with a butch lesbian.

Is it just parades of same sex affection that piss you off or all displays of affection in the public domain ?

I love the fact us girls who love girls get ignored in debates on homophobia...oh wait lesbians are kinky

(that sounds far bitchier that its supposed to)

[Reddig]

Heh, I gave the imaginary gay son a bit concideration as well you know... I wouldn't do anything to hurt him naturaly. I wouldn't beat him (or any other gay) up. Probobly I wouldn't even try to change his desires (because i know that's probobly impossible).

Still, I don't know if I could ever again look into his eyes and say:

"Yeah, son, i don't care that you are different than i dreamed of that you will be. I don't care that I won't share the happynes of you getting along with a nice girl, which i could judge myself. I don't care that you won't give me a grandchild. You're still my son, and i still love you, and i'm proud of you no matter what".

I probobly couldn't.




EDIT: Notmarcie's post wasn't here when i wrote this post.

You're wrong about my attitude to lesbians. I don't find them hot, especially if i imagine my girlfriend braking up with me, because she fell in love (or whatever) in Judy or Kate. To be honest, I also don't like men who say: "Oooo, i hate fagets, but come to think of it, lesbians are pretty cool".


On the other hand I do have to tell, that i get pissed only when it comes to "displays of affection in the public domain" of people of the same sex. I already explained why either - because i feel disgust. I just do, and i can't help it. Then again, if it had been a "classic" pair - man and woman - they'd have to do a lot to buy my interest.

[notmarcie]

you see, if your imaginary son was straight you might still not have imaginary grandkids.

I think your rhetorical son would also be very hurt that you weren't proud of him.


When I came out to my mum it was really really diffcult, although she is in no way homophobic I was still worried how she would react. For somebody to know their parents weren't proud of them any more...wow, no wonder there is such a high suicide rate in the LGB community

[Reddig]

I know he would be hurt. I know that both of us would suffer a lot dealing pain to each other. But I predict, that it'd have to take a very long time for me to accept his homosexualism.

[Fanta]

You can't force yourself to be proud... :(

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by Reddig
For me being a gay is comparable to being someone who likes dressing up in women clothes or being an amateur of bondage or whatever. That's because I always think about it in categories - how would i feel being one? How would i look like/feel like if i was gay. And then i think of one of my friends putting a tongue in my mouth... Yauch, brrr, ptfu...

I do understand, that there are people, who just are this way, and i'm not saying it's bad - just as i'm not saying that dressing up in your ma's bra and stockings is something evil. Then again i know, that i wouldn't be capable of either, and the thought itself makes me feel uneasy.

Another thing I dont like about gays (not all of them in this matter) is the looks of some of them. As long as i find nothing wrong about being a normal person, just homosexual, i can't stand the people (gays and lespians) who radically show off with their homosexuality. When i look at those people at the parades, dressed in stupid clothes, acting like pervert clouns i can's stop myself from disliking them.


Ermm you DO know that being gay/lesbian is different from being trans-sexual do you...?
Big difference, I hope which I expect not to have to expain...

As for the the looks, that would be the same as hetero's taking things to extremes in Mardi Gras or Rio de Janeiro Carnival...
It happens, but not very much... there are always people that like extremes... why not turn a blind eye to it, I know a lot of gay people like the extreme scene...

As for the gay son hypothesis, you may be surprised :)

[notmarcie]

but can you learn to leave behind prejudice ?

Reddig said he find the idea of a man kissing him repellant (to praphrase), but nobody is asking him to kiss a man. I know you cannot make anyone like something sexually ( i dont especially like the idea of cucumbers somewhere salad should never be) but I wouldn't find the idea of someone else doing it so bad that it would sour my relationship with them

I just think that its very very sad that your revulsion at someone elses sex life could affect the way you viewed your own child.


Also its homosexuality, not homosexualism

[~Pie Mistress~]

Hi there. I just thought I would state my views. :)

I consider myself bisexual. I am attracted to men for the most part, but also to a few women. I am an ex Christian, and now do not have a religion, so I tend not to worry as much about how it may go against my religion. Right now I choose to believe that there may or may not be some greater being, but I honestly do not care, and do not want to waste my time trying to please it after the bad experiences I have had with christianity. Anyway, back to the subject. For those of you that believe in soulmates... what if the soul of your true love just happens to occupy the body of a member of the same sex? To me love shouldn't be so much about sex, although the physical stuff just comes along with it when you love someone. It's the person you love, and not the body. If you are in love with them, then you are just automatically attracted to what ever body they may be in. But anyway, that's my view on the whole thing. :D

[Fanta]

Originally posted by notmarcie
what constitues a parade ?

Is it just parades of same sex affection that piss you off or all displays of affection in the public domain ? (etc...)

is this to me aswell? as i think mild erm petting i suppose you call it is fine in public but no more wheather your gay or not. actually its fun going over the top in public erm... i dunno people just seem to find it offensive. where am i going with this? my god this topic is confusing...

Personally i am not bothered. but i would not like to offend people by being too effectionate towards a partner of the same sex in public. i just don't like to offend people. same reason i wear trousers all the time to not show off my hairy legs.

[Reddig]

Ermm you DO know that being gay/lesbian is different from being trans-sexual do you...?
Big difference, I hope which I expect not to have to expain...

You misunderstood me. By comparing the two (naturaly different) events - being gay/lesbian and being a transsexualist i wanted only to describe my attitude to homosexualism. I just have simmilar feelings to both.

Oh, and one more thing, which i should have mentioned earlier, but i didn't.

I don't support intolerance. I don't support racism. I'm very far from any nationalist doctrine. I do not condemn anyone. If what I say offends anyone - im sorry, that's not my intention, i just describe my feelings.

[notmarcie]

Something a Male to female transexual I know sent to me

HETEROSEXUAL QUESTIONNAIRE

Many lesbians and gay men - in therapeutic situations as well as in the "outside world" - are put into situations where they have to defend their sexuality. This places a considerable burden on people who are frequently only wanting to deal with a relationship problem, "coming out" on the job or with family and friends, or some sexuality-related situation. To help non-gay people understand how it feels to be put into such a position, Alan K. Malyon, Ph.D., devised a questionnaire, parts of which are excerpted here. This questionnaire is based on "heterophobic" premises, rather than homophobic premisees, which exist chronically in our society.


1. What do you think caused your heterosexuality?

2. When and how did you first decide you were a heterosexual?

3. Is it possible your heterosexuality is just a phase you will grow out of?

4. Is it possible your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of people of the same sex? Maybe you just need a positive gay experience?

5. Heterosexuals have histories of failures in gay relationships. Do you think you may have turned to heterosexuality out of a fear of rejection?

6. If you've never slept with a person of the same sex, how do you know you wouldn't prefer that?

7. If heterosexuality is normal, why are a disproportionate number of mental patients heterosexual?

8. To whom have you disclosed your heterosexual tendencies? How did they react?

9. Your heterosexuality doesn't offend me as long as you leave me alone, but why do so many heterosexuals try to seduce others into that orientation?

10. If you should choose to nurture children, would you want them to be heterosexual, knowing the problems they would face?

11. Most child molesters are heterosexual. Do you consider it safe to expose your children to heterosexuals? Heterosexual teachers, particularly?

12. Why must heterosexuals be so blatant, making a public spectacle of your heterosexuality? Can't you just be what you are and keep it quiet?

13. Heterosexuals always assign themselves such narrowly restricted, stereotyped sex roles. Why do you cling to such unhealthy role playing?

14. How can you have a fully satisfying deeply emotional or sexual experience with an opposite-sex person, when the obvious physical, biological, and temperamental differences are so vast? How can a man possibly understand what pleases a woman sexually - and vice-versa?

15. Heterosexual marriage has total societal support, yet the divorce rate continues to spiral. Why are there so few stable heterosexual relationships?

16. Since there are so few happy heterosexuals, techniques have been developed to help people change. Have you considered trying aversion therapy?

17. Could you trust a heterosexual therapist/counselor not to try to influence you toward his/her own sexual leanings?

18. Do heterosexuals hate and/or distrust others of their own sex? Is that what makes them heterosexual?

19. A disproportionate number of criminals, welfare recipients, and other irresponsible types are heterosexual. So why would someone hire a heterosexual in a responsible job?

20. Why are heterosexuals so promiscuous, always having "affairs", etc.?

[Fanta]

Originally posted by notmarcie
but can you learn to leave behind prejudice ?

Reddig said he find the idea of a man kissing him repellant (to praphrase), but nobody is asking him to kiss a man. I know you cannot make anyone like something sexually ( i dont especially like the idea of cucumbers somewhere salad should never be) but I wouldn't find the idea of someone else doing it so bad that it would sour my relationship with them

I just think that its very very sad that your revulsion at someone elses sex life could affect the way you viewed your own child. (etc.)

thats some good points. and i guess it is sad but he cannot help it and it is not as though he would do anything to change his 'son'. He just can't help being disgusted by it in the same way i can't help being disgusted by i dunno someone eating shit or something (not comparing the two there btw).

I don't say what i am trying to say very well sorry. not even i understand half of what i put...

[Fanta]

wow that Alan K. Malyon, Ph.D. is a clever guy. what a brilliant questionnaire and says alot. makes you think well it would if i weren't so gay...

[notmarcie]

I think thats a bad analogy as sexual fetishes are different to sexual orientation however to try to use it, would someone being into scat stop you being their friend (they don't find you sexually attractive and do not want to poo on you).

I feel sorry for Reddig as the only out of the closet homophobe is is getting it a bit in the neck, but the point I am making is, nobody is asking people who find the idea of same sex attraction nasty to be experience same sex attraction. Only that they treat gays and lesbians with the same respect as 'straight' people. And everyone needs to stop picking on bisexuals !

Is the idea of straight couple having anal sex equally unpleasnat.

Also the thing my mommy told me was if you think something is nasty, don't think about it. One man once told me , the idea of you dykes licking each other -it makes me feel sick just thinking about it
my answer, don't think about it then.

Do parents really think about their kids sex lives (not a mother) , shouldn't the idea of your kids being sexual be slightly bizzare anyway, regardless of your son or daughters partner

[Reddig]

Again i feel misunderstood by you, notmarce. As I said - I don't condemn. I dont's question someons right to be whatever he want's. I don't find homosexuality (sorry for the "homosexualism", i didn't know that - as you've probobly noticed i'm not english) an illness, psychological problem or something you grow out off. If I was to decide i'd be as tolerant as one could get.

But i'm still homophobic. I still hate the idea of being a gay, or my son being a gay. I'd feel very uneasy if ne of my friends came out to be a gay or a lesbian, and i predict, that it would influence on my relationship with that person. I'm sorry, but that's the way I am.


BTW. The questionnaire is grate.


EDIT: PFFF!!! STOP WRITING SO FAST! I can't keep up.

Again I repeat. Sexual orientation and sexual fetishism is not the same thing. True. But my feelings concerning both are the same. Anal sex is also somewhere from that neighbourhood.

[Destrukto]

If you don't think it bad in any way, what is the problem then?

I'm curious as you certainly try to be rational about it...

[Fruiterian]

Reddig, like others, I appreciate your honesty on the matter.

But this is a debate. I am debating.

As Destruko said before, there is a difference between homosexuals and transgender/transvestites.

Secondly, back to my first post in this thread. Pages and pages ago. One of my first posts on this forum. Oh the memories.

Originally posted by Fruiterian
I see nothing wrong with homosexuality. I'm not homosexual myself, nor am I bi. It's your business, not mine. Who am I to say if it's evil or not? Your decision. It's a matter of perspective.

First of all, I believe that being homosexual is pretty much the same thing as being heterosexual: you just ARE. You know? You go through puberty, you become attracted to certain people, et cetera.

Marriage? I don't see why not. Sure, the original purpose of marriage in the earlier days was to have children. But not so much anymore. Over time it's evolved to become a bond of love and sharing. There are plenty of children up for adoption, and just a couple is homosexual, that doesn't mean that they can't be loving parents and that their children will be different than others.

And as long as we're on the topic of sex, I don't see anything wrong with it. It's your business. Sodomy laws shouldn't be in place, I know that there was a semi-big deal about that over here in the states a while back. It's your business.

Pretty much, it's you, not me. Go and have a ball.

I still stand by that argument.

As for notmarcie's questionnaire, I rather appreciated it. Homosexuals are people too, with their own challenges and hurdles to pass because of who they are, possibly to a greater degree than many of us. Many of them are put into uncomfortable positions, having to defend something that is theirs, something that is natural, et cetera.

'course, I'm not homosexual myself, as I said previously, so I don't know what it is to actually be in these sort of situations.

As for all homosexuals being odd, that's just a stereotype, first of all. Secondly, there are straight people who can be stereotyped as homosexual just by the way they act. I can think of several examples right off the bat.

However, I still believe in the ultimate goal of giving homosexuals/bisexuals as many rights as heterosexuals do. Including marriage, adoption, et cetera. Things that many people take for granted.

They are people, after all. Who said that people don't have the right to love one another?

edit // However, I don't see why you can't be friends with homosexuals. Sexual orientation aside, they are still the same person. You've gotten along with them. Just because they favor one gender over another, why should that change anything? Unless they begin to like you, obsessively, yes, I can see discontinuing the relationship. however, i don't see any reasons not to.

[notmarcie]

Originally posted by Fanta
wow that Alan K. Malyon, Ph.D. is a clever guy. what a brilliant questionnaire and says alot. makes you think well it would if i weren't so gay...


? is this sarcasm or just you being confused/confusing

[Fanta]

Originally posted by notmarcie
I think thats a bad analogy as sexual fetishes are different to sexual orientation however to try to use it, would someone being into scat stop you being their friend (they don't find you sexually attractive and do not want to poo on you).


you totally mis-understood me there. infact i stated that i wasn't comparing i was just saying i can't help but feel digusted by people eating shit in the same way some people can't help feeling disgusted by gay people. btw i am bi so have nothing against people being gay...

btw reddig its great not grate. and also it's not good to say A gay i.e 'i would hate to be a gay', its just a little offensive.

[Fanta]

Originally posted by notmarcie
? is this sarcasm or just you being confused/confusing

no i am saying that the questionnaire would make me think if it weren't for the fact that i am bi.

[Reddig]

If you don't think it bad in any way, what is the problem then?

It's not bad for me. It's just disgusting.

However, I still believe in the ultimate goal of giving homosexuals/bisexuals as many rights as heterosexuals do. Including marriage, adoption, et cetera. Things that many people take for granted.


There is another point of view to this issue. I guess I agree with you on this matter. Hell, if i was a citizen of Holand, France, GB, Germany.. whatever... i'd probobly vote for it. Or at least not vote against.


But it's a different matter here - in Poland. Poland is very conservative about homosexual problems. As because 80% of poles will listen blindly to what the pope sais, as long as the catholic church is agains the people will be against it either, no discussion. Besides, i don't think this society is reay for such revolutions. Before 1989 there even was no issue of homosexualism. People here have to get used to the idea first.

EDIT: Sorry for the typos and mistakes. It's 2:00, i'm after a whole day of studying middle age history and i'm writing in a foreign language.

[Fanta]

what if the pope went crazy and told everyone to kill?

[notmarcie]

Firstly I just noticed you are Polish, so Czolem (i think)

I am sorry if you feel attacked, think of it as a little role reversal ;) normally i am defending myself to people calling me either unnatural or too chicken to be a lesbian. I have never really been in a position to talk to someone who would admit they are homophobic (well not without risk of being lynched by BNP types).

Trying not to jump to any conclusions, I do wonder if it has anything to do with the very strict Catholicism practised in much of Poland. I have found in the past when people have expressed the view homosexuality is bad, without knowing why it has a lot to do with religious roots/

[notmarcie]

I am too busy looking stuff up on google to notice that catholicism has already been mentioned.

However, just because you find something disgusting it doesn't mean it is wrong.


The part I don't understand is this, if you lived in the Uk or France or Holland, you wouldn't be homophobic, and you would support gay rights, but because the majority of Poles are, you are too. The only way for a society to become more liberal is for the minority to be vocal.

I appreciate the language difficulty makes it harder for you to debate, but this is illogical

[Fanta]

just thought i would say reddig never said it was wrong it just digusts him - which he cannot help

[Reddig]

Heh, siema :]

Probobly one of the reasons of me being what i am is that i was brought up in a sosciety, which has an attitude thowards homosexuals like Poland. But then again my fammily is not religious at all, i know my mom is quite liberal in this matter, and i've never heard my dad talking about this issue, so i'm not exactly a case of someone being brought up homophobic.

Pope has an enormous authority here in Poland. If he'd say kill, some would kill i guess. I know, that thousands would happily die in his name if only he'd ask.

f you lived in the Uk or France or Holland, you wouldn't be homophobic, and you would support gay rights, but because the majority of Poles are, you are too.

No no no no no no no no no no! It's not like that. I'd probobly still be homophobic, only that I myself don't have anything against gay marriages and stuff, but i just realise, that while it'd be ok in GB it would probobly do more bad than good in Poland.

Besides, I have a tendency to think the other way arround than majority of Poles do. Most Poles would tell you, that they are tolerant to homoexuals and stuff (which is bull, because hardly anyone is).

[Fanta]

wow killer pope...

[notmarcie]

I phrased it badly

I meant to say, just because reddig thinks homosexuality is disgusting, it doesnt mean it is . Its an opinion. I realise a lot of this is about language problems and differing idioms and the like. But saying 'its disgusting' makes it sound very definite rather than it being an opinion.

I wasn't suggesting that your parents raised you to be homophobic, more that socialisation from schools and peers had more to do with it. Having read some of the diatribes that Polish political parties spout it is not wholly surprising (not that any other countries political parties dont rant on as well).

[Fruiterian]

ah, yes, the pope. being of 1/2 polish roots, 1/2 irish roots, i should be familiar with the pope. i'm roman catholic.

polish is a very cool language, but as far as i know, really different from english.

that being said, i am very irreligious person. but i do understand that some people are fanatical about it, and considering how much religion plays a role in polish culture (and the pope is polish himself) i could see why most people would believe in what he says.

he's too conservative for my tastes.

edit // gah, half the post got cut out for some strange reason.

if you find homosexuality disgusting, why so? yes, it seems like an unnatural idea to someone who is raised as a heterosexual. but it is just a way of life.

as for the parades and the flamboyancy of some homosexuals, i don't really mind it. the homosexuals in parades are proud of who they are. think of when women wanted the right to vote. they undoubtedly had stuff like that to garner support for their cause and just have pride in themselves. they probably weren't well liked either.

the flamboyancy? that's just a stereotype, seriously. some people who don't seem to be homosexual actually are, and vice versa.

[Reddig]

Naah, those parties you are talking about now are catholic radicals, they are of no importance. BTW. I wonder if there is any other country, which has catholic fundamentalism for a political program.


I've written, that I find homosexualism disgusting, because i do. The fact of someone finding something disgusting is an opinion.Gustibus non desputantum est..

If it comes to school peers and all that - i've always said something different, than most of my friends did, so their opinions do not influence mine in some major way.


Edit: ok, enough for me today. I'm very tired, i have a history test tommorow which i am most likely to fail. Time to jump into my homophobic pajamas and into my homophobic but warm bed. A homophobic goodnight everyone ;]

[Fanta]

Originally posted by notmarcie
I phrased it badly

I meant to say, just because reddig thinks homosexuality is disgusting, it doesnt mean it is . Its an opinion. I realise a lot of this is about language problems and differing idioms and the like. But saying 'its disgusting' makes it sound very definite rather than it being an opinion.


he is not saying it IS disgusting (i don't think) it sounds like thats just his feelings towards it.

[Ouroboros]

I know what reddig means. I find the concept sorta weird myself, even though I have nothing against homosexuals.

[PoofBird]

Summing it up:

Reddig knows all arguments pro tolerance, and anti homophobia, and accepts those. He knows the facts, he knows the opinions.

still, he can't get past his gut feeling, irrational as it is, that it's wrong.

Coming from a society as he describes, I think he's come a long way already.

Dobrze zrobiony

[Amazing Morris]

I think the whole gay stereotype thing should be scrapped. Being flamboyant does not make you gay and if you are gay you do not need to be flamboyant. I know many straight flamboyant people, many of them are members of my family. However I'm the most normal one there and yet I'm gay. That's why we fewer campy people on Tv as it gives the wrong impreesion.

[notmarcie]

So would you support my mission to kill Graham Norton ?

The Gay Jim Davidson with worse suits

[squealpiggy]

Most of the gay men I know have been camp. Or should that be most of the gay men I have noticed have been camp?

I have gay friends, I don't care where they put their penis any more than I care where my straight friends put theirs.

[Amazing Morris]

Well Graham Norton is annoying but I strongly suggest you target Ziegfried and Roy excuse my spelling. Obviously that siberian tiger had the right idea

[squealpiggy]

What really galls me about the over the top camp men is this sense that they feel they are being either shocking or impressive. Like the guy who brags about the women he has had sex with, I don't care how hetero you are, I don't care how homo some guy is. It doesn't affect my perception of that person. But the obnoxious desperation to appear different does make me have a lower opinion of a person...

[psychohamster]

Homosexuality makes no sense and i personally cant wait until some scientist isolates the deffective gene and finds a way to fix it permanantly, that shouldnt be a problem since homosexuals cant reproduce. But i am not prejudice against them or anything, kinda weird though.

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by psychohamster
Homosexuality makes no sense and i personally cant wait until some scientist isolates the deffective gene and finds a way to fix it permanantly, that shouldnt be a problem since homosexuals cant reproduce. But i am not prejudice against them or anything, kinda weird though.

not prejudiced? maybe, but you are an ignorant idiot.

You are judging people because you think you grasp genetics, or biology as a whole? Maybe you should keep your mouth shut and go back to school.

If you want to participate in this debate, I suggest you read the entire thread.
The idea of genetics has been discussed in depth.

You might learn a bit.

[squealpiggy]

Back of the class mr Defective Gene... why can't you wait for that? What possible way could it be affecting you?

[notmarcie]

Woohoo, I am defective goods, you get a 25% discount on me at the till !


As for homosexuality making no sense since when has love made sense ? Or sexual attraction of any kind ? If every thing made sense immediately then life would be rather dull.


If you are not prejudiced then why would you like to see homosexuality wiped out ? That is essentially what you are suggesting and eugenics is a very slippery slope. Once you wipe out undesirables like gay people then you can start on the disabled and other defectives.


By you I mean it in the multiple sense, not psychohamster personally. English is so lacking in not having a 'tu/vous' system

[gopherboy]

It's funny how the people against people being homosexual are on the most part just putting there point across in a calm and collected way and all the pro gay people seem to be getting a little heated. Sexual frustration me thinks :D (soooo only joking, i am allowed to joke arn't I?).

Anyway i'm not going to disrupt this thread again with irrelivance about gay mice (although that wasnt me in the first place, i just mentioned the fact that i'd been bitten).

One thing i don't understand about (most) lesbians (and i mean real lesbians not the ones you see in porn films lads) is if they are attracted to women, why do they seem to be attracted to the butchest looking women i.e the ones that look like males. Seems a bit strange. Also most gay men still dress like men (although a little better usually, probably why i'm often mistaken for being gay ;) ) but most gay women dress like men, and seem to have no dress sense what so ever.

It probably all revolves around dress sense. And i mean the ones with natural dress sense - the ones that set the trends, not the ones that follow them.
Women naturally have dress sense, those that don't are more likely to be gay.
Men naturally don't have any dress sense, those that do are more likely to be gay.

I'm like the funny bloke that they have on question time, they always have a comedian on there just to lighten the mood don't they. The only difference being that their usually funny.

By the way, congrats on your excellent English Reddig, i cant believe that people had the gall to correct you on your gramma when im guessing not one person on here can speak polish.

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by gopherboy
It's funny how the people against people being homosexual are on the most part just putting there point across in a calm and collected way and all the pro gay people seem to be getting a little heated. Sexual frustration me thinks :D (soooo only joking, i am allowed to joke arn't I?).


You'll find that most people do not get heated because someone is against, but because they don't have well thought through arguments...

Reddig didn't get very heated replies, as he thinks things through and is open for new ideas.

[gopherboy]

Cheers for clearing that one up Poofbird, you got my vote in Big brother!

[Reddig]

By the way, congrats on your excellent English Reddig, i cant believe that people had the gall to correct you on your gramma when im guessing not one person on here can speak polish.

Thank you.

PoofBird came pretty close to polish:

Dobrze zrobiony

I suggest this is supposed to mean "well done" as in "good job". Not "well done" as in well done stake :] You should rather write "Dobra robota". Anyway, congratulations, that was a nice try :].

The dressing up thing is hardly unnoticable. I don't know if it's because that gays have a better taste (i myself don't actually like this type of dressing, but i KNOW that i'm tasteless if it comes to clothes), and apart from the like/dislake i don't know if that matters in any way. Businessmen, goths, punks, public workers, skater boys etc. wear specific cloethes, and hardly anybody cares. So what is there to not understand?

[gopherboy]

You know what, i'm not even gonna try and be funny anymore - It's not big and it's not clever (or so my girlfriend says :) )

I honestly didnt think that the pro gay people were getting heated because they were full of sexual tension and i certainly don't think that being gay revolves around a persons dress sense.

Everyone should have a gay friend, your not cool otherwise. It's the new "in" thing to have, either that or a mixed race baby but there rather harder to come by. I've already got the gay mate so i just need the baby and i'm officially the coolest guy in the world and my girlfriends nigerian so i'm halfway there, high five!

Right i'm off to play with my gay mouse (and thats not a metaphor for anything either).

[Pie Diddy]

Originally posted by gopherboy

Everyone should have a gay friend, your not cool otherwise. It's the new "in" thing to have

Everyone I know seems to be homophobic so I don't think they'd agree with you. Either that or they're women in which case they think it's cool that they have a friend who is gay because they can talk to them easier not because 'oh yeah, my friends gay so I'm cool'

[Dude]

I admit, I am a homophobe, and ive never even met one before, but I just think its wrong to do that. Anyways, I think people shouldn't treat gay's differently because of there sexuality.
My dad once had a gay freind and my dad was a homophobe before he met him, I think that prooves a point about peoples attitude against homosexuals. I wouldn't go out and take the piss out of a gay like some people do because I get picked on at school. Another point is that bullys usualy call their victims "gay" or "batty boy". They haven't even seen a gay before! And im not gay by the way.

[Pie Diddy]

Originally posted by Dude
im not gay by the way.
Yeah I kinda guessed by the fact you admitted to being a homophobe

[Fruiterian]

but there should be more interaction between homo/heterosexuals. homo/bisexuals are normal people, just trying to live their life. they just prefer one gender over another. that would probably make the strongest barrier against discrimination against homosexuals.

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Fruiterian
they just prefer one gender over another.

That's exactly what bisexuals don't do...

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by Dumples
That's exactly what bisexuals don't do...

so?

[often Ndisguise]

I do not mind if people are homosexual. I think it is stupid to want to ban something like homosexuality. Whatever people do in private is none of anyones business (as long as it does not negatively affect others..or break laws)

The only time i get irritated with homosexuals is when they really rub it in other peoples faces and use it to get special favors etc.

For instance, at the disney animations company same-sex live in partners got certain benefits that different sex live-in partners did.

[notmarcie]

What kind of benefits ? Is it stuff that was open to married couples, or stuff that hetrosexual couples were not eligible for regardless of marital status, and can you please cite a source for the information.
(you can tell i was in the debating team at uni can't you :p )

[often Ndisguise]

http://www.otherside.net/disnebct.htm

this is an excellent article on disney and gays.

Basically, the company extended the benefits given to married workers to homosexual couples. Which is not really fair to the hetero non-married couples.

Plus they actively promote the 'homosexual' agenda.

It is stupid to use a company started by the wonderful Walt Disney to push a sexuality issue into people's faces. Disney was originally about making wonderful cartoons. The sorry stuff disney puts out now really makes sense considering their primary goal is push 'agenda' in peoples faces/

[notmarcie]

Interesting, I must make sure I push the homosexual agenda to have equal rights more often


Do you have a site which actually states what the beneifts are, and isn't more 'conservative than Rush Limbaugh' ? Something a little less erm, anti gay ?

You see, hetrosexual couples can get those benefits by getting married, gay and lesbian couples cannot get married and those those benefits will always be denied to them. If gay and lesbian mariages were allowed then the system would be much fairer, but as Mr Bush's marriage protection week made quite clear only straight people are ever going to be able to do that.

[often Ndisguise]

are you homosexual?

I am about as straight as straight comes. lol. It is just the way I am. Mmmmmmmmmmmm maleness....hot male bodies. But if i was gay I probably woud have no problem with being gay.

Anyway, it is a matter of personal opinion as to whether gay marriages should be allowed to exist. I do not think it is particularly 'hateful' or 'antigay' to be against them (the marriages).

I am against them because I think that marriages are very closely tied with religion and raising babies. Perhaps gays should be allowed something different from a traditional 'marriage' certificate. Maybe something called a 'homosexual partnership certificate'.

The point is, there are alot of people out there who feel that homosexual couples together does not equal marriage in the tradtional sense. It has nothing to do with hating gays. It is mainly a religious and social value issue. The same thing goes for children being brought up by two gay 'parents'. Some people just think the idea is not very nice.

I certainly do not think gays should be married in churches in religious ceremonies.

[Fruiterian]

gah, I was just in the process of writing a post just like that and you got it first, notmarcie... O_O

as for pushing an agenda in people's faces... homosexuals are all over. they do exist. we can't deny that. not all people are homosexual, but not all people are heterosexual. giving them the same rights would be giving homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual couples, things that they may deserve, things that we may take for granted. in florida, there are (i'm not sure if they still are though) laws in place barring homosexuals from adopting children. then there is the whole marriage issue. not all congregations oppose this: some give their blessing to homosexual couples. recognizing a union of love is a whole other matter.

but what's wrong with giving homosexuals rights that heterosexuals have had for years?

edit // gah, i didn't see your last post.

[often Ndisguise]

It is a fact that homosexuals do exist. But it is also a fact that compared with the number of straight people they are a very small minority and should not be allowed to bully everyone else (and everyone elses social norms) around.

I think people have a right to question a child being brought up by two same sex parents. I think the ideal way for a child to be brought up is with a mom and dad. The majority of people find this idea of 2 same sex parents disturbing. And they have a right to feel the way they do. It has nothing to do with hating gay people. It has more to do with worrying about what the child will think.