The MOOOOOOON

[fat bear]

Have you heard Bush's new spheel(sorry if i mispelled it) yet!? He is now talking about putting men on the moon again to set up a lunar base of some sort and eventually sending a manned mission to Mars.

Personally, I like that he is taking this path towards space. He could be the first president since Kennedy to push the space program sooo much, and for good reason because I believe that astronomy is the key to the survival of the human race. Plus, the lunar base will make it easier for launching space shuttles because of the moon not having a terminal velocity(exit speed) for departure.

But what I do not like about this is that this might be just used as a ploy to get more votes. If he doesn't get elected, I'm guessing Howard Dean will and there is no doubt he will destroy this notion. Plus, I do not think we will be ready to go to Mars until the next decade, so I'm not sure how Bush can think we will go there during his presidency.

[Arky]

that sounds very exciting, but it will probably be a load of "spin" to do with getting re-elected.

[TusksRUs]

Originally posted by fat bear
Have you heard Bush's new spheel(sorry if i mispelled it) yet!? He is now talking about putting men on the moon again to set up a lunar base of some sort and eventually sending a manned mission to Mars.

Personally, I like that he is taking this path towards space. He could be the first president since Kennedy to push the space program sooo much, and for good reason because I believe that astronomy is the key to the survival of the human race. Plus, the lunar base will make it easier for launching space shuttles because of the moon not having a terminal velocity(exit speed) for departure.

But what I do not like about this is that this might be just used as a ploy to get more votes. If he doesn't get elected, I'm guessing Howard Dean will and there is no doubt he will destroy this notion. Plus, I do not think we will be ready to go to Mars until the next decade, so I'm not sure how Bush can think we will go there during his presidency. Bush is planning for 2020, provided the world still exsists and he is not the president any more (not sure if he's allowed to be for that long)then whoever's president then should continue, it's not just his idea the next president could continue

[psychohamster]

Ok listen. There is nothing on the moon, or mars, that anyone cares about. Fat Bear, sure the moon will be easier to launch space shuttles from, but we still have to send them TO the moon first. Then where are we going to send them after that? Back to friggin Earth! The moon is a barren wasteland, we have to send the moonbase fuel, food, 02, supplies, and shuttles. All these require gas and more importantly money, which can easily avoided by NOT building a lunar base in the first place! It has NO purpose at all! Focus on the ISS for now guys, if we eventually have the TECH. to build FUNCTIONAL, INDEPENDENT space settlements, lets put it on a better place than the barren lifeless moon!

[piemanmoo]

Originally posted by psychohamster
Ok listen. There is nothing on the moon, or mars, that anyone cares about. Fat Bear, sure the moon will be easier to launch space shuttles from, but we still have to send them TO the moon first. Then where are we going to send them after that? Back to friggin Earth! The moon is a barren wasteland, we have to send the moonbase fuel, food, 02, supplies, and shuttles. All these require gas and more importantly money, which can easily avoided by NOT building a lunar base in the first place! It has NO purpose at all! Focus on the ISS for now guys, if we eventually have the TECH. to build FUNCTIONAL, INDEPENDENT space settlements, lets put it on a better place than the barren lifeless moon!

Exactly. Why waste money on this?

[Oli]

I dont like George Bush, He's a bit of a prat.

It will be exciting to see all this happening but i dont think it will go well see'ing as most of George Bush's plans for America have failed or made him unpopular, But that could just be me!

But how much is all this going to cost,? How about he puts the money to people who are starving and dieing in e.g Africa.
That is what i dont understand, Why cant he put the money to something thats a bit more important?

O well im not the President so its not my choice. He he!!

[eleanor]

Originally posted by TusksRUs
Bush is planning for 2020, provided the world still exsists and he is not the president any more (not sure if he's allowed to be for that long)
No, he won't be - there's a maximum number of terms for which one president can be in office in the US (I think it's three). This is one thing that the US has got right - we have no such check in the UK, and as a result, we had 11 years of Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister (from 1979 to 1990). If I had the energy, and my notes from last year's Public Law module to refresh my memory about the details of our system, I'd start a debate about it.

So... yeah... I'll stop hijacking this thread now.

The moon plan sounds like incredible spin, and I agree with Oliz about priorities, man, priorities! like debt and poverty, in his own country and also (cripplingly so) in the third world. Let's sort this planet out before we go colonizing other ones. :)

[Cainam]

Amazing.
Bush does something bad = Bush is a wanker.
Bush does something good = Bush is a wanker that wants to be re-elected.
Oliz, you DO realize that the U.S. gives more money in aid to other countries than anyone already, right? How much more of my tax money should I send?

I'll probably get blasted for the above :rolleyes: .

As for the space program, there is a huge 'trickle down' affect of the technology. The computers that we watch Weeble and sometimes Bob on wouldn't be here if not for the space race of the 60's. They had to invent all kinds of stuff to get a man to the moon, but there is more use to the stuff than space. Ultra light and strong materials like carbon fiber and kevlar are used in stuff from bicycles to bullet proof vests. Fiber optics. All kinds of things.
Then there is the pure thrill of the exploration itself. Nothing in the list of human achievements comes close. It was done for peace and exploration, not for war or to cause harm.

\o/ MARS \o/

Oh, U.S. presidents are 2 term limit, 4 years per term.

[Hydralisk]

Slightly offtopic, but nonetheless inportant...

the moon is just outside a certian point in Earths gravity. Every year It gradually gets further + further away until there is a point where It will escape from Earth and we will be left feeling rather stupid without a moon.

Like-wise, The rings of Saturn Are gradually being sucked into the Planet, coz they're too close.

A suggested Solution for the moon vanishing is to (And I'm being serious here!) HIJACK one of Jupiters moons! Now, what if we just simply took the "Acne moon-jacker device", and plonked THE moon back into its original place?

I'll put up a link if I can.

Having said that, Bush won't be around after the next Election probs, so the whole "Bush on the moon" thing is pointless...

[sack the chimp]

No, I cant stand Bush, but $1,000,000,000,000 on putting a man on mars!!??!?!? Yeah, thats what America and the world really needs.

I don't know where to start.

I hope I don't have to.

I'm not gonna bother.

It's just really fuckin stupid.

[Cainam]

Well, since Clintoon cut NASA and the military, what happened to the U.S. economy? Toilet. If you are looking at a Mars mission from just a financial standpoint, think of it as an investment. The return in the 70's and 80's from the space race in the 60's put the U.S. in great economic and technological shape. Reagan spent money on the military like water, in an effort to topple the U.S.S.R. financially, and it worked. If the government had then cut back to a reasonable military budget then, the U.S. would be much better off right now. However, Clintoon cut back too far, and the economy suffered. Now that Bush is in office, military and NASA spending is up, and the economy is starting to recover. Investment in technology such as a Mars trip = good financial sense in todays technological world.

It really does work that way. Check the figures. Economy follows military and research spending. The problem is the inertia makes it lag behind enough that it looks like the opposite. We are talking long term ( 3 to 4 years to have a significant change ).

Besides, where is your sense of adventure and curiosity? If I could, I would go in an instant, and I have enormous respect for those Astronauts who already have gone into space - for ANY country.

\o/ MARS \o/

[cliffhanger]

Going to Mars is a waste of money considering the American government doesn't seem to keen to spend money to help the planet we live on. Why not stop treating the Earth like a toilet first and have a little respect for our surroundings.

(It might be better to go to Mercury first as you can get an impressive tan there and then head back to Venus for the laydees)

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by cliffhanger
Going to Mars is a waste of money considering the American government doesn't seem to keen to spend money to help the planet we live on.
You never know, they might have found some minerals they'd like to squander on Mars, too! Why do you think Bush really wants a permanent base on the moon? ;)

[plattbridger]

im amazed this thread has been running so long without someone calling the moons existance into question


woo to moon bases! i hope i live to see the day Space 1999 finally becomes a reality

[Kelp_Master]

as john stewart said: Bush has been pushing the space program whih is good because it means he has give up on earth


the moon obviously exists because you can see it at night and sometimes during the day duhh

[psychohamster]

The moon was created by an asteroid or comet collision in the precambrian period. It blasted away a chunk of the Earth which began to orbit around the larger peice. Gravitatonal forces then compressed it into a spherical position. The part of the Earth where the chunk was ripped off is now the Pacific Ocean. That is where the moon came from.

[hidingmonkey]

I think putting another man on the moon would be a good idea. As long as its Mr Bush that gets sent and without a return craft, as the world would be a much better place without that idiot

[psychohamster]

The president is only a tool of the people, he is controlled by the Senate and the House. Getting a bit sour about the space race are we?

[Alomie]

Jesus...
Bush is a nut case 1 trillion dollars would clear way over half of third world debts and alot of people could be saved from poverty and drinking unsafe water, and many children could be properly educated.
Also no one cares if a man goes to mars anyway, to be honest what is the point? Earth is quite nice as it goes... do we really need to step onto another planet, and what about if Bush's plan to send men to the moon ends up with two, space persons dead!?
Personally i think Bush needs to go see a shrink and america needs a new president, if Bush is running the biggest power in the world, america, we are all done for!

[cliffhanger]

Remember y'all, Bush isn't merely an idiot...He's a fucking rich idiot with connections. Yeehaa!

[plattbridger]

those trillion dollars would be spent on earth creating jobs etc

[Cainam]

Originally posted by plattbridger
those trillion dollars would be spent on earth creating jobs etc
That maks no sense at all. You don't throw money on a table and get a spaceship. Jobs would be created making the thing. And the U.S. industries that would do the job could use the boost right now.

Why do you think China is aiming for a moon landing, and doing it themselves instead of contracting out to U.S. companied who have done it before and have the experience? It is to boost their high-tech industry. China will end up being a much stronger and more advanced country by the time they accomplish their goal, juat like the U.S. was in the 70's.

[plattbridger]

well as i said elsewhere the last moon mission gave us the personal computer and the space race in general lead to the development of all sorts of things like the non-stick frying pan

there are a few things in life that are above money

ESA are planning moon and mars missions too so we wont be left out if its simply countries looking after their own interests

[sack the chimp]

Originally posted by Alomie
Jesus...
Bush is a nut case 1 trillion dollars would clear way over half of third world debts and alot of people could be saved from poverty and drinking unsafe water, and many children could be properly educated.
Also no one cares if a man goes to mars anyway, to be honest what is the point? Earth is quite nice as it goes... do we really need to step onto another planet, and what about if Bush's plan to send men to the moon ends up with two, space persons dead!?
Personally i think Bush needs to go see a shrink and america needs a new president, if Bush is running the biggest power in the world, america, we are all done for!

Yes, yes and more yes.

Cainam, it would create jobs to put a man on mars, loads of them. For highly educated and skilled people who could no doubt get work elsewhere. Pretty much andy way of spending that much money would create jobs for vast numbers of people.
Maybe he should spend it all on big macs? Its not that stupid, think of all the jobs that would create, around the world, for unskilled people.
Or beer? Or cheese? Or a pie the size of the moon?
Poverty and disease are rife throughout the third world. If your ghonna do something that drastic, why not just make food and drugs for the people who cant afford it? That amount of money could do so much good for the world, putting a man on mars (or trying, i dont think that much would even do it) would create jobs in america, advances in the kind of technology which would only be enjoyed by the west.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, its just fuckin stupid.

[Alomie]

I with you dude...

But i do think there are more imortant things that need to be done before we start putting people on mars! i think we should sort out earth first...

And 1 trillion dollars would get us half way there wouldn't it...?

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by psychohamster
The president is only a tool

He he he...

Seriously though good point.

[Cainam]

Originally posted by sack the chimp
Cainam, it would create jobs to put a man on mars, loads of them. For highly educated and skilled people who could no doubt get work elsewhere. Pretty much andy way of spending that much money would create jobs for vast numbers of people.
Maybe he should spend it all on big macs? Its not that stupid, think of all the jobs that would create, around the world, for unskilled people.

Isn't an education, job skills, and the ambition to do something with your life a good thing? A public school failure with the ambition af an ameoba can dig ditches or ask what you want to drink with your order, but for economic growth, you need people with technical skills, and a strong industrial base.

Originally posted by sack the chimp
Or beer? Or cheese? Or a pie the size of the moon?

O.K. Lets try something like this in theory. We will take $1 trillion dollars of government money and, in an effort to stimulate the economy, we will have as many tennis balls made as we can ( just an example ). Workers are hired, factories tool up, and we make a whole big bunch of balls. The problem is that there is nothing new about making tennis balls, nor is this a skill that is that difficult for the workers to master, so when you are done with the original project, you have NOTHING. No highly skilled workers, no new technology, just a big pile of tennis balls. Not a good investment of resourses, hmm? Now, if that same $1 trillion was to be spent on sending a manned ship to Mars and back, what do you have here on Earth once you are done with that project? You have trained and skilled workers and engineers, and a big pile of new technology. As I said before, this is what happened after the space race of the 60's. The list of products and tecnology that has filtered down into our daily lives is INCREDIBLE. We did a lot more in the late 60's than send a man to the moon, we got the technology that made this possible.

Originally posted by sack the chimp
Poverty and disease are rife throughout the third world. If your ghonna do something that drastic, why not just make food and drugs for the people who cant afford it?

This is something that I can agree with 100%. Especially the world hunger problem - hell, the problem with hunger in the U.S. It is embarrassing, really. The problem here, though, is the programs that are in place just don't work. This could fill an entirely new debate thread, but the U.S. government's farm subsity program is the most messed up ball of poop I can immagine. Farmers are paid, by the government, to NOT farm. This supposedly helps stabilize prices, which are subsidized anyway.
The thing is, even the U.S. government isn't wrong ALL of the time. A good portion of it, but not all. Alot of the U.S. government needs to be changed, but I think that the Mars shot is a good idea.
Originally posted by sack the chimp
That amount of money could do so much good for the world, putting a man on mars (or trying, i dont think that much would even do it) would create jobs in america, advances in the kind of technology which would only be enjoyed by the west.


The way the U.S. just throws money at other countries' problems rarely helps much. The people in power get richer, and the poor stay hungry. We are trying, but the bureaucracy gets in the way. Or, if conditions are attatched to any grants, like 'Stop whipping the peasants and clean up your Human Rights violations", then the U.S. is accused of meddling in other countries' affairs. The U.S. already spends more money trying to help out the world than anyone else, and still we get shit on because it isn't enough. Here's a news flash: IT IS NOT THE U.S.'s FAULT. The U.S. helped bail out Europe and Japan after WW II, and it worked because the people in charge wanted to get their countries back on their feet. The leaders of third world countries do not care.
I'm not going to feel guilty if my tax money is used to boost the economy of the country I live in. If it didn't work that way, then the government is not doing it's job.

[Alomie]

wow he posted alot i am with him... (as long as he is agaist bush) i didn't read any of that!!
He must be smart!

[sack the chimp]

even if you dont spend the money on the rest of the world, how about spending more on your own country?

Like a free health service, quality education? Try and do something about the corporate shits who have the real power, spend it on curing aids and cancer (the drug companies sure as hell dont want a cure, they make vast amounts from drugs that treat symptoms).

Maybe a pie the size of the moon is a worse idea, but it amounts to a similar one, in my view.

And i do understand throwing money at the third world is not the answer, because of people like mugabe, but there's got to be a way to force some goodness into the poples lives, regardless of who's in charge. I dont know what that is, but im not in charge of a superpower.

[Dr-Electro]

Okay, jumping right in here:

If I am repeating anyone else's answers, send me a bill.

the President of the U. S. A. has a two-term limit. The last president to sint in the oval office before term limits was FDR. He had three and no other pres. has ever had more than two. I personally like the kdea of term limits and wish we could put them on all elected officials.

there are exploitable resources on the moon. The unfortunate fact is that the exploitabel resources are hellishly expensive to develop and could take centuries before becoming self-sufficient. There is extractable oxygen on much of the mineral content of the moon. Hydrogen can be manufacured as well. With those two elements, much can be accomplished. It just isn't worth the cost to try to make it work now.

Mars? Still a big question mark. There is ample evidence that Mars once contained large bodies of water and large water flows have marred the surface. Where the water is now is still a topic for scientists to debate and fight over. Perhaps Spirit and Opportunity (the two currently active Mars rovers) will provide some answers.

The tricky bit about Mars is that it could be terraformed. Terraforming, for those who do not already know, means making an alien planet resemble Earth.

For Mars this means flooding the atmosphere with greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide. We would also have to seed the soil, what little there is, with plants that can survive the harsh Martian climate. These plants exist, but would need some genetic engineering to get them up to Mars speed. These plants will support microbial life that is capable of turning Martian dirt into life-sustaining soil. Then, more plants can be grown.

Another idea for the terraforming of Mars is the addition of solar mirrors. These would be gigantic mylar dishes in low-Mars orbit, aimed at the ground. The idea is to warm the soil as much as possible and add extra insolation for the plant life we will have seeded. More sunlight, more CO2 and more warmth equals faster and more prolific plant growth.

The growing of green plants on Mars means that the plants will produce oxygen. If there is any water left, in any form, we can release it into the atmosphere with the help of Mars-global warming and solar mirror heating.

The next steps are unclear but critical. The atmospheric pressure has to increase and water must be made available.

If any of these steps cannot be accomplished, no Martian base could ever become autonomous. The bases would need constant suport from Earth forever.

Questions now arise: How many poor people in America could make better use of all that money rather than toss it into space only to lose it forever? What federally funded programs, such as education, would benefit if that money were used for that purpose instead of expanding the space program?

As a child of the Fifties, I remember Sputnik and hte ensuing space race, culminating with America's manned missions to the moon. Those were exciting times and made many an American citizen proud to be a part of such an enterprise.

Now, I think it's all fizz in a soda glass. Dubya wants to get reelected and will pull any outragewous stunt he can think of the get reelected. He is most emphatically and demonstrably NOT a Kennedy. He is a Republican with a greedy streak a mile wide. He has demonstrated to the satisfaction of millions that he is a miserable failure as a President. The White House smells like an abbatoir with him in it. He is no more interested in going to the moon and Mars than my house cat is. He is in politics for his own gain and proves it every time he opens his lying mouth.

Forget the moon and Mars for now. Let's fix what's wrong on this planet first. I am all in favor of scientific advancement, but Bush is hitting the opium again if he thinks our current economy can suport his wacky initiatives.

[squealpiggy]

I think that the advances in technology that can be used on earth that would come from such a venture as terraforming Mars or setting a colony on the moon would outweigh the cost, just as the earthly benefits of the space race in the 50s and 60s benefit us today. I don't really care about the agenda behind putting a trillion bucks behind space exploration, the benefits would be astonishing.

Besides which the trillion dollars on space exploration may well be a trilion dollars not being spent on health or education, but it is also a trillion dollars not spent on making bigger nukes.

[plattbridger]

lol everyone talks about terraforming mars like itll take a weekend

itd take tens of thousands of years to terraform mars and theres not that much technology behind it either just plants etc

lol though i do agree we will get more technology out of this seemingly new space race but i dunno what sort of things to expect i doubt flying cars will be one of them though :(

[Cainam]

It seems alot of people think that the mars shot idea is bad just because Bush thought of it, or might profit from it. Bush is, without a doubt, an absolute waste of skin. But he is certainly not the only president in recent memory that wasn't worth a damn. Clinton would have been better used as an inefficient heater. Bush Sr. was just as much a weasel as Bush Jr., but he was at least better at it. Reagan did try to do a good job, but his mind was gone. Carter was a placeholder. And no one I've seen so far fills my heart with joy and good hope. Politicians, democratic OR republican, are bastards.

BUT, not everything that any of these men did while in office was bad. Most of it was self ( and party ) serving, alot of it was stupid. Some of it, however self serving it was, was also a good idea. And I still think that a mars mission is a good idea, even if a complete ass came up with it. As for the funding, if the U.S. government was run correctly, it wouldn't be an issue.

[sack the chimp]

everyone keeps saying about the technology which would be created by the mars race, the resaerch done, and how it would benifit everyone.

Why not just look at what we need here, on earth now, and put the money towards developing technology we know there would be a use for, rather than just getting it as a side effect from doing something else? Surely thats gonna be a much more efficient way of doing things.

[mm pretty dress]

We're doing a fine job of messing up this planet.

We should leave the rest alone.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by sack the chimp
everyone keeps saying about the technology which would be created by the mars race, the resaerch done, and how it would benifit everyone.

Why not just look at what we need here, on earth now, and put the money towards developing technology we know there would be a use for, rather than just getting it as a side effect from doing something else? Surely thats gonna be a much more efficient way of doing things.

It doesn't work like that. If you have something for a specific task and it works noone will bother making something that does the same task better. The space race forced the advancement of technology meaning that we could then apply the new knowledge to earth to do already existing things even better.

[Dr-Electro]

The terraforming of Mars could be accomplished in under a hundred years if the effort were continuous and intensive. The idea is not to let nature take a new course, but to force nature into a new groove. Of course, being humans from Earth, we might just screw it all up the first try and never be able to recover from it.

I don't get your meaning on "if the country was run right, funding wouldn't be a problem." Can you clarify your point a little? Our tax base is limited. The funding for huge major projects has to be taken from somewhere.

[Cainam]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro
I don't get your meaning on "if the country was run right, funding wouldn't be a problem." Can you clarify your point a little? Our tax base is limited. The funding for huge major projects has to be taken from somewhere.

Wasn't that clear on that, I guess. What I was referring to was the absolute incredible ammount of money that the U.S. government wastes. Not just the useless and counterproductive projects and such, but the way these things are managed. I'm a government employee for Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Washington state, so do know what I'm talking about. Here's an example: If a government agency has a yearly budget of $10 million, and they spend $6 million, next year their budget is $6 million. At the end of the fiscal year, any surpluss is spent on crap, so there will be more to spend next year. I watched a building go through a complete refurbishment - new roof, new interior walls, electric, plumbing, etc., and get torn down 2 years later. The refurb was a toilet to throw money into.
What I meant was that if the government actually managed itself correctly and stopped wasting money, just the savings would be enough to cut taxes, erase the deficit, and send every human on Earth to Mars for a weekend getaway. The Government is always going to do stupid things, I just wish it was a more efficient stupidity. I'd be more upset about the mismanagement of funds in every aspect of government than a proposed trip to mars, really.

I know that this seems like it is turning into a 'Government sucks' thread, but the cost really seems to be the biggest arguement against the man on Mars idea.

[sack the chimp]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
It doesn't work like that. If you have something for a specific task and it works noone will bother making something that does the same task better. The space race forced the advancement of technology meaning that we could then apply the new knowledge to earth to do already existing things even better.

well, yeah, thats how things do work generally. But if your gonna throw that kind of money around, maybe a slightly different way of thinking is required.

Like, just set yourself some goals. They could be based around reducing emissions, creating renewable energy resources other stuff i cant think of right now. Surely it would be possible to do the thinking behind setting it up for a few million? Maybe even a billion dollars, it would still be 0.1% of the total, and if you cant come up with a slightly new way of thinking for that, then people are just very, very stupid.