The Evolution of Language

[Twatybollocks]

Ever since the caveman first walked out of the cave and said, "UG!" - Translation = Be Right back, language has evolved. From the way we say words, their meaning, accents and how we spell them.

These changes take many years and are gradual. However, with the internet and mobile phone, languages like txt speak and l33t have appeared out of no-where seemingly overnight. Now, love it or hate it (note - I hate it) a whole generation is now communicating in something which is almost like a whole new langauge.

There were reports in summer last year about a whole class failing their English exam because they used txt speak. On these boards we quickly slam any N00b who uses it, yet is it inevitable? When the kids of today are running the country, will these languages be more acceptable, more widely used? Will BRB appear in the Oxford English DIctionary and are we who dislike its use simply the Ludites of the 21st Century?

[sack the chimp]

It's a possibility, but I hope not.

I think the txt thing should end really. I mean I might ohave made sense before predictive texting, but since then I find it far easier to write real words, and texting was only big for a couple of years before predictive stuff became standard.

As for internet speak, i'm just lost. I have no idea what l33t or that oneone1 (i've probaly got that wrong) means. But if it does become more common, then I guess i'd learn, but only to understand, not to write myself.

[Tommuz]

I hope not, but it probably will happen. Its not just the writing, its the speech too. I'm only 18 and I can hardly understand what some people are saying to me due to all the slang used and the general way in which some people in the London area especially use. This way of speaking is often indefinable not because of the accent, as I have the same accent as everyone else in the general South East London area but because of poor elocution of the words. I can understand all my mates fine but it seems to be some of the people (not everyone, just some) that I cannot understand a word that they say. I'm not sure if this is the case in other areas though so only going to use my area as the example. What I think is happening is language is going both ways. The speech is devolving but the writing is evolving. We are getting rid of the useless letters (come on, look at the word queue, how many of those letters are neccessary I wonder? :rolleyes: ) and i think that is a natural phenomenon, as any species will get rid of what it doesn't need over time, like we, as humans lost our tail, and so our language will lose any of its uneccessary spelling.

[plattbridger]

in topics like this i always remember the fact that the two ronnies did a newsreading sketch where they dropped out all the vowels in exactly the same way as text peoples do its scarilly prophetic

the main theme with the evolution of the english language at least is pretty much the same as its been with animals just stream lining and making it more effecient

there was public outroar almost when people started accepting can't instead of cannot and its the same today with gonna instead of going to

lol i think i said this before but by my reckoning a few more centuries down the line and the english language will have been reduced to about 10 different syllables

[dominatrix]

i don't think that that will happen.i think that they might put the words in the dictionary like they did with "omigod" or something but all of our work has to be done in formal else we're screwed.everyone i know does have the occassional screw up where they wrote txt speak for a word but we always correct it.i reckon it will just get accepted as informal language in the future.

[sack the chimp]

accents/slang amongst young people is spreading over larger areas. To me, it seems most young people in the south half of the country seem to be developing the same, south london style of speech.
Personally im from merseyside, and the scouse accent/slang is still strong, but there are a lot of similarities with manchester, and the accents definitely changed. Just listen to harry enfields scousers (quite a whiney accent, which is fairly common these days) to how the beatles speak. Ringo Starr sounds almost brummie compared.
Slang is certainly always evolving, particularly amonst the young, as are accents, but they seem to be gerneralising over larger areas. I remeber being taught in history that before the railways, pople from towns 50 miles apart just wouldn't have understood a word they said to each other, but since then, and with TV particularly, regional accents will begin to slide out of existance.

[queenofself]

this makes me think ~not sure why...i guess its kind of relevant~ of paul auster's 'new york trilogy'. he writes about people who keep their children locked away so that they have no contact with anyone during the beginning of their lives. the purpose of this is to see if theres a natural human language deviod of construction.

as to text talk etc. its definitely becoming an integral part of common language. it seems like theres an ever-increasingly stark definition between formal & everyday language. soon youll get taught two different ways to spell.

[Ninja Duck]

It won't happen along as this generation is alive. Whenever I see a "lolz" or a paragraph without any caps or punctuation, I automatically think the writer can't have anything to say worth reading. And there's also the techincality that people can't actually talk in 1337. As long as people actually mingle about in a physical plain rather than live in individual plains, 1337 speak will have to stay in it's small (yet still cancerous) circles.

[NIGHTCOW]

Language is all about development and transition and it is constantly changing. 50 years ago, people would have been criticized for using can't but as someone said, it has now become pretty much accepted. I don't really see the problem with using contractions of language as long as the intended meaning is still understood. If it is easier and faster for someone to write gonna instead of going to then it is still understood but is more efficient. That is why true 1337 will not become the norm - becasue it takes longer to read it than if it was written properly. I think things such as LOL or BRB will stay confined to where they are now i.e chatrooms, forums and texts becasue in real life they are not really needed (people tend to laugh when someone makes a joke rather than saying LOL) but I don't see the need to speak or write in proper unabridged versions of language if the same meaning can be conveyed in an undiluted form in a more eficient way.

[notmarcie]

Boring Linguistic student alert !

Language change is a lot more gradual than people think, (and incidentally cannot is still the correct form to use in formal written language unless writing speech). Plenty of slang terms have arisen, been worried about by the language police and then totally dropped from use. How many people besides embarrasing Uncles still use the word "wally" instead of idiot ? The major changes that have occured in language have mainly been grammatical, ways of making a verb negative, ie the form used to be more akin to French in that a word was added before and after the verb. It died out in favour of just sticking not, or n't after the verb. It took a couple of hundred years


Its unlikely although not impossible that txt spk will come into general use, although English devolving to 10 syllables is unlikey as in 1000 years of English we have only lost 2 letters and no syllables. Even if we used txt spk we would still need all the syllables, as written language is only an agreed upon representation of spoken sounds. Text speak is more plausible in terms of using abbreviations in written formal language, after all nobody objects to Mrs, and Mr, instead of Mistress and Master.

As for accents, they have always existed (as has slang ! Turd was a 13th century slang word for poo, vagina now a medical term, was latin slang, it actually means sheath, as in thats where a man put his (pork) sword). They have also been despaired over for all that time. Its unlikey that suddenly accented speech that the majority cannot understand will take over leaving everyone bewildered. In order to get a job most people need to have a decent standard of written and spoken English (or whatever language they speak, lets not be Anglo-centric!). Also, as most change in speech pronunciation comes from those in higher socia standing (ie those with money) its unlikely we are all going to start speaking ghetto any time soon. Although, thanks to George Dubya, people may start saying new-quw-lar, instead of nuclear.

[squealpiggy]

My father in law talks about nuke-you-ler. It's funny.

But yes the "evolution" of language via text speak and slang isn't going to happen too quickly for notmarcie's reasons and also you have to factor in that slang has been used and forgotten many times in the past. Some things stay like "cool" other things are lost like "daddio". And it's not just confined to teenagers. For example sailors in the napoleonic war used terms like Brig, sloop, M'nmast, jib... it's unfathomable.

[notmarcie]

Hey Sloop is still used, ask Brian Wilson !

Also terms used in professions are jargon, rather than slang some of which move into mainstream language, especially computer and technology based ones. A jib is a sail, and a M'nmast is the main mast, they're still in use. Other words like strike (strike the main sail) developed other meanings, such as a workstoppage as the word was used in a wider context.

jeeeeez, I am such a word nerd, shoot me now.

Pulp Fiction had the chance to ressurect Daddio, but sadly it failed. Personally I love slang and non standard forms of English, from a word nerd perspective it gives you a chance to look into why they started being used. Plus it means you can buy books called "Fuck" all about different ways the word fuck is used.

[eleanor]

I wrote this (http://www.grammarpolice.org.uk/show_article.php?id=22) for a site my boyfriend's working on - it's a fair representation of my opinion on this subject. :)

I'm very worried that there's a class of schoolkids who failed English because of using textspeak. however, at least they were failed for it, and not allowed to pass. I blame their teacher.

I've also heard, from several law firms whose presentations I've attended (I'm a second-year law student and want a job :) ), that they get a worrying number of applications with a- bad spelling errors that Word would pick up in the spellchecker (grr, see my article!) and b- textspeak - textspeak of all things, when applying for a job as a solicitor! Needless to say they chuck those applications in the bin...

[notmarcie]

i haven't heard of a whole class using text speak in an exam, I did hear about a girl failing an essay because of using text speak (surely amongst 30 teenagers not all of them are totally idiotic)

I did find these amusing comments on the uh, Newsround website. http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/chat/your_comments/newsid_2814000/2814357.stm

Spot the future McDonalds workers !
Do U wnt frIs w/ tht ?

[eleanor]

Originally posted by notmarcie
(surely amongst 30 teenagers not all of them are totally idiotic)
haha, you'd think so. Sadly it depends on the school... From what I know of one of the schools in my area, I wouldn't put it past them to have whole years of kids writing in textspeak...

[Destrukto]

Txt speak evolved, like every medium, to meet a demand.
It allows you to write short concise messages over your mobile phone and/or chatrooms.

After that it became part of a subculture that used it a lot.
It became kind of a badge of honor to be able to decipher the messages.
I suppose everyone at one time has had some "secret codes" with his or her friends to distinguish themselves from "others".
This is perfectly normal, because it is in the nature of people to affirm their identity by using unique codes.

I do not believe it will become very widespread, because the success of a code depends on lots of people being able to decipher it.
Thus I think "brb" and "gtg" might stick. "bbiab" will have a harder time of it, because the longer the abbreviation, the harder it is to decipher.

Spelling changes like "can't" to "cannot" are reflections of changes of pronunciation. They, of course will continue to evolve.
I am saddened however by changes like "nuclear" to "nucular" as it makes spotting the words borrowed rom Latin or another language more difficult to spot, and it feels like we are forgetting some historic reference...
I won't be able to stop it though, as it seems people are using it more and more...
It's just the academic in me that revolts.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by notmarcie
Hey Sloop is still used, ask Brian Wilson !



A sloop is a triangular masted ship who's sails run almost parralel with the stern. It is designed to be a fast runner particularly against the wind, the triangular sails reducing drag. A sloop really should have only one or two masts though the British Navy in the 17 and 1800s had three masts and were known as brigs or as brig masted sloops.

Patrick O'Brien pwns Napoleon!

[Dr-Electro]

I could not have stated it better, Destrukto. That "Bushism" (which, to be fair, did not originate with him) burns my sensibilities every time I hear it. It makes the person uttering the word sound like an utter moron.

The word Nuclear indicates properties of the atom, which has a nucleus. The same eraser-heads who say, "Nookyoolar," also clearly pronounce, "Nucleus." If a home can have a, "Nuclear," family, why must an atomic weapon be, "Nookyoolar?" After all, the atom that powers the weapon does so by destroying its own nucleus, not its nookyoolus.

I have now ranted on a particular pronunciation. It makes my insides cringe to hear it.

f u cn rd ts ur 2 mch nto txt spk and nd 2 gt a lf mrn stfu omfg 1 cnt blv hw ignrnt ur so gfus and ncb or 1 wl cytd and sdyw.

Ok, that's an extreme example, but it is realistic, based on some of what I have found in chatrooms. I have also been called the "son of a crack whore" and "a living monkey's ass" for asking for clarification on txt abrs.

I am disgusted by the deterioration of the language. I was speaking to a couple of retired teachers, Saturday. We had a fine old time citing examples of the verbal and written language mistakes we see taking over daily life. Even road signs and newspaper headlines are beginning to show the telltale signs of corruption.

Local businesses have long since deteriorated. We have businesses here in my town such as, "Pollys Pretty's." Tell me what's wrong with this picture? How about, "DJ's Cakes, Douhgnut's and More." I don't go to those places. It's hard enough to get me into places like, "The Kountry Koffee Kup." Did our alphabet suddenly lose the letter C?

I must stop now, I am getting worked up into a frenzy and no one will want to read my post!

TTFN, ROFL, CBL.

[squealpiggy]

It's hard enough to get me into places like, "The Kountry Koffee Kup." Did our alphabet suddenly lose the letter C?


Hmm... shall we go get a coffee at the KKK?

I think the owners of that place are trying to tell you something :O

The phantom apostophe annoys the piss out of me too. "Carrot's 25p". So that means that there is a carrot with 25p? Where is this remarkable root vegetable that has developed not only a system of ownership but also fiscal ownership? More to the point, where is the 25p belonging to this amazing carrot? I assume that it was near the sign, has it been stolen?

[notmarcie]

I hate greengrocers apostrophe ! I pick it up every time I see it. Another one that irks is me "fresh" tomatoes...erm, what does the greengrocer know that I don't ?

My favourite sign ever is for a takeaway in Rusholme, Hentuky Fried Chiken. Excellent proof reading there Mr Sign Writer.

Dr-Electro, you also forgot the replacement of Y with I and S with Z. I maintain that you cannot get a good haircut at any hairdressers' that substitute letters Krazi Kutz.

[Dr-Electro]

Originally posted by notmarcie
I hate greengrocers apostrophe ! I pick it up every time I see it. Another one that irks is me "fresh" tomatoes...erm, what does the greengrocer know that I don't ?

My favourite sign ever is for a takeaway in Rusholme, Hentuky Fried Chiken. Excellent proof reading there Mr Sign Writer.

Dr-Electro, you also forgot the replacement of Y with I and S with Z. I maintain that you cannot get a good haircut at any hairdressers' that substitute letters Krazi Kutz.

Just one more good reason for me to Kut my own Hare! (Oh, God! Did I just post that?) (eek):eek:

Yes, I have nieces named StacI and TifanI. Their mother is an ass.

You cite phunny ekzamplez, too. (ok, that was over the top. Time to roflmao)

[squealpiggy]

I hate made up baby names like Baliesha, Caroucha that sort of thing. People just picking a sound they like and calling their child that sound without thinking of the consequences. That's why there are children called Candida.

Worse though are when people have a realy ordinary name but the parents try and be individual so they change the spelling. Vyktoriah, Rebekka, Dayvid etc. Rubbish!

[Twatybollocks]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro

Local businesses have long since deteriorated. We have businesses here in my town such as, "Pollys Pretty's." Tell me what's wrong with this picture? How about, "DJ's Cakes, Douhgnut's and More." I don't go to those places. It's hard enough to get me into places like, "The Kountry Koffee Kup." Did our alphabet suddenly lose the letter C?


What's worse is those businesses that think it's hilarious to advertise a BOGOF special offer, which is Buy One Get One Free. It was quite funny the first few hundred times I saw it.

[notmarcie]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
I hate made up baby names like Baliesha, Caroucha that sort of thing. People just picking a sound they like and calling their child that sound without thinking of the consequences. That's why there are children called Candida.

Worse though are when people have a realy ordinary name but the parents try and be individual so they change the spelling. Vyktoriah, Rebekka, Dayvid etc. Rubbish!


Haha, look at Http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com at the baby names section. An old aquaintence of mine compliles it and its damned hilarious as she is almost as sarcastic as you.

Candida as well as being a yeast infection is also an old English name for a bird, specifically a carling. So its funny in 3 ways !

It actually means white or pure.

[MrPlowHamburglr]

I think that we are not Luddites for being put off by txt speak. Language is the main vehicle of thought, not just between people, but much more importantly within your own mind. Try to think a higher level thought (ie, anything not related to me hungry, that hurts, hmm nice ass on that chick { :D } , etc.) though without words as it's basis.

For example think of how the word 'like' allow people to talk while saying nothing, thus allowing them to talk while thinking nothing.

That's my quick 2 cents anyways.

[Space Prawn]

A really good book to read for this sort of shizzle of 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves', about incorrect punctuation. You've all heard about the pando who goes into a pub, fire off a shot with his Colt, then walks out of the door. When confronted, the panda says, 'in the dictionary, it says, Panda: eats, shoots and leaves.'

[SemiCircle]

i own the f*ck book! woo! and eats, shoots and leaves. and the adventure of english. and i go to lectures on phonology and other indo-european stuff. i'm almost a bloody expert; shame i hardly know anything about the subject. ask me in a few years time...

the sign might, possibly, be saying "(a) carrot is 25p".

if the spelling changes, so be it. it's a recent invention for our language anyway. just so long as everyone knows what you're saying, and how to read it aloud if they need to, that's all it needs to do.
some words are hopelessly illogically spelt, as gb shaw would have told you, him with his fabulously facetious ghoti (woo! alliteration!) it's just tradition that keeps them as they are.

the hypocrisy of people complaining about poor spelling in a website devoted to a character named "weebl" is quite strong, as well. as is my own hypocrisy at not joining in the spelling bashing, as i'm in real life quite a stickler. i just feel like arguing. baaah!

i can't get used to the spelling of hypocrisy. i'm finding that my spelligg (valid error) has gone somewhat bad of late. i blame the time.


mmm, vocalised labials*


(*the worst joke ever, if you laugh at it, you're, umm, weird like me.)

[Dr-Electro]

I blame Ash. Without his webmonkey, where would Weebl be? Off topic? Not really. The locale of this forum may be juxtaposed with a cartoon character, but not the seriousness of its intent.

I daresay that many of the above posts are riddled with grammatical errors and misspelled words. (Spelt is a seed grain, not a valid substitute for spelled.)

We, and I use that pronoun very loosely, often write as we speak. If a word sounds to our ear like, "spelt," we have a tendency to write it as it sounds to us. The usage of such a spelling becomes common and one day the past tense of, "spell," will become, "spelt," rather than, "spelled."

I kickt his shins because he stifft the waitress on the tip she deservtly earnt. Now he's all pisst off. (ignite the laugh track now)

Oh, well, now I'm a grammar and spelling Nazi. So be it.

[mini_ninja_pir8]

electro,

you got me reading all that txt speak,

thats like, an insult
anyways

language has evevoled so much

i mean, i know chilean guys who speak perfect english...

and, we can now, or now have, people who teach us other languages,

its insane

[SemiCircle]

fucksocks. i have persistantly misspelled a word, and nobody told me till now. :(. i feel so dirty. still, spelling changes to match pronunciation is what i was arguing for anyway, so i've got no reason to get too hung up on it.

so i shall delibrutly mizspell wurds to mach the way thay sound for a wyl, to try and justify it to myself. crap, i now spell lyk my siztr.


enough! i renounce my suggestion. it looks so ugly.

[squealpiggy]

Indeed. Bad spelling and grammar can make even the most sensible point look infantile and wothless. Hence the importance of grammar and spelling particularly in debates.

[Alomie]

The thing is with text speek is that it's supposed to save some time while "txtin" or in a chat room, cause you don't want to use lots of words while you are limited on the amount of characters!

I try hard not to use them, but while i am writing notes on somehting i often use text speek. But in real like when speeking to a real human beings i do not use abbriviations like"Brb" or "lol" although my mum is always saying ttfn to her friends!

I think that text speek is unacceptable, in most cases but sometimes it's ok, like in a english exam, your dumb if you use text speek, but in a text message where your only allowed 199 characters i'ts a bit more acceptable!

[SemiCircle]

ttfn isn't new, it was invented in the 1940's on itma. god only knows how i know this, i wasn't around in the 1940s. hell, even my parents weren't alive.

[Dr-Electro]

Shows how young you are! Whippershnapper!:D

I know I am showing my age, too. When I was in school, back in the stone age, spelling was so important it was considered a subject all by itself. The parts of speech, capitalization, syntax and contest were all part of Grammar, another separate subject. Reading was not taught to any student until Phonics were mastered first. We learned how to sound out words according to the sounds made by the letters and combinations of letters.

Know what? It has stood me in good stead for life. I am able to communicate with intelligent people in an intelligent manner.

Somewhere along the way, at least on the West side of The Pond, our kids got stuck with, "innovative education concepts," rather than the basics of learning. Some lazy S. O. B. in the government's Department of Education decided it was bad for a child's self-esteem to have to, "memorize phonics and the rules of spelling and grammar." WTF???? That was one of the stupidest things I have ever heard from anyone, let alone the person who was supposed to be the nation's top professional "educator."

I guess the term: "Teacher," was no longer politically correct enough at that point. Anyway, the Bozo named in the previous statement began a movement toward what was called, "Whole language learning."

Piss and piffle! My kids went to school and learned to spell by word recognition alone. The rules of grammar were chucked into the toilet. Reading, writing, so-called spelling and so-called grammar were all lumped together like so much bread dough. The kids came out half-baked and unable to spell the word, "A," correctly.

I did my best to unteach the errors they picked up at school, but I was just Dad. They were convinced that their friends at school knew more than an old fart like me. Now, they are in their thirties and are struggling with piss-poor education every day.

I am one of an ever-shrinking minority in this country who would love to see a return to teaching the basics of education instead of "feel-good" self-esteem. There is nothing in the world wrong with teaching a child that knowing how to speak, read and write, along with actually being able to calculate math problems, is good for their self-esteem!!! I love kids, all of them, but I can't see any harm in teaching them some real basic knowledges and skills first.

[Babeinboots]

There are many different types of languages. EG - writing languages, speaking languages, naming languages.

To see my writing languages go to www.eastron.greatnow.com

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro
Shows how young you are! Whippershnapper!:D

I know I am showing my age, too. When I was in school, back in the stone age, spelling was so important it was considered a subject all by itself. The parts of speech, capitalization, syntax and contest were all part of Grammar, another separate subject. Reading was not taught to any student until Phonics were mastered first. We learned how to sound out words according to the sounds made by the letters and combinations of letters.

Know what? It has stood me in good stead for life. I am able to communicate with intelligent people in an intelligent manner.

Somewhere along the way, at least on the West side of The Pond, our kids got stuck with, "innovative education concepts," rather than the basics of learning. Some lazy S. O. B. in the government's Department of Education decided it was bad for a child's self-esteem to have to, "memorize phonics and the rules of spelling and grammar." WTF???? That was one of the stupidest things I have ever heard from anyone, let alone the person who was supposed to be the nation's top professional "educator."

I guess the term: "Teacher," was no longer politically correct enough at that point. Anyway, the Bozo named in the previous statement began a movement toward what was called, "Whole language learning."

Piss and piffle! My kids went to school and learned to spell by word recognition alone. The rules of grammar were chucked into the toilet. Reading, writing, so-called spelling and so-called grammar were all lumped together like so much bread dough. The kids came out half-baked and unable to spell the word, "A," correctly.

I did my best to unteach the errors they picked up at school, but I was just Dad. They were convinced that their friends at school knew more than an old fart like me. Now, they are in their thirties and are struggling with piss-poor education every day.

I am one of an ever-shrinking minority in this country who would love to see a return to teaching the basics of education instead of "feel-good" self-esteem. There is nothing in the world wrong with teaching a child that knowing how to speak, read and write, along with actually being able to calculate math problems, is good for their self-esteem!!! I love kids, all of them, but I can't see any harm in teaching them some real basic knowledges and skills first.

I learned to read like this:

My parents taught me to recognise words and then encouraged me to read books.

What's important about that? Two words. My parents.

It is not a teacher's job to teach a child how to read and write. It is a teacher's job to help them to improve on this knowledge. We didn't have seperate spelling and grammar subjects but we did have English language and English Literature subjects seperately, and spelling was considered important. I find it ridiculous that a child can have their self-esteem damaged by being told what the correct way of spelling "eclipse" is. If a kid makes mistakes with spelling they're not going to magically learn the correct spellings through having a higher self esteem. They won't learn if they don't have any encouragement to learn. My parents paid attention to my spelling, I was good at spelling and I had a large vocabulary for my age. I have come out of schooling with excellent use of written English (and that isn't being conceited, I consider my writing style to be my greatest talent) and I don't think I would have done so if I had been encouraged to have high self esteem despite having poor grammar.

[Babeinboots]

Laņuaķes ar cũl bĕcauz đĕ allow us do comunycãd yn menĕ donķues.

[Babeinboots]

Try and guess what that last post said in English. CLUE: TRY PRONOUNCING THE WORDS AS IF THEY WERE ENGLISH

[Tommuz]

Language is cool because it allows us to communicate in many donkeys? :confused:

[Babeinboots]

Close. 'In many tongues'.

[squealpiggy]

It actually says "In many dongs". Eep!

[Babeinboots]

No. It actually says 'in many tongues' like I said.

[Dr-Electro]

I agree that parents should have a role in teaching children to read. Mine taught me, but the schools I went to echoed the same style of teaching that I was already accustomed to.

Some parents on the other hand are poorly equipped or totally unable to teach their children to read. In these cases, the whole responsibility falls to the school system.

I, like Squealpiggy, believe that teaching the correct spelling and grammar does no harm to a child's self-esteem. I too am proud of my ability to communicate, especially through the written word.