Sexism against men?

[eleanor]

People seem to be labouring under the misconception that although it is unacceptable to insult a woman's weight, it is perfectly all right to make fun of a man for being overweight.

I have heard that in Britney Spears' video, she is seen kissing a fat man, then rips his head off and a thinner man climbs out. I have also come across the following problem and advice on an online agony aunt page:-

Dear Deidre

MY partner says she will find another man if I don’t get rid of the weight I’ve put on.

I’m 31 and have been living with my girlfriend for four years. In the last few months I’ve put on several stones, mostly round my middle.

It isn’t a big problem for me but my girl doesn’t like it. She’s refusing to have sex with me and is now issuing threats.

It is starting to get to me and is beginning to affect my work. I am always bickering with colleagues these days.

Everything is sliding downhill and it all seems to be about my stomach.

DEIDRE SAYS: Making love with a beer belly between you is not a sexy prospect. See your doctor to check that there is no medical reason for the sudden weight gain. If not, ask him for a plan to lose weight.

Tell your girlfriend you don’t want to lose her and that you need her support to slim down.

What the hell?

If the gender roles were reversed (man kisses fat woman who magically becomes slimmer; woman is advised to lose weight to please intolerant, cruel boyfriend) there would be outrage and uproar.

The part above highlighted in bold particularly confused me - she is giving a subjective opinion as fact (and she is definitely not speaking for all women or men on this point!).

Do people not realise that young men are susceptible to anorexia, and that probably as many men as women are concerned with staying in shape? Yet there is no call for male models to be more normal, unlike the fashion industry's apparent desire to have female models whose body shapes are closer to the norm.

Discuss... (I'm aware this probably isn't very structured, but meh!)

[squealpiggy]

Diedre hates all men anyway. She's a right bitch! If she gets a letter saying "My boyfriend has been sleeping around behind my back. I dumped him but he's begging me to take him back, what should I do?" she replies "Your boyfriend is a nazi! He should be elecrocuted for being such a hatemonger!". If the letter says "I am a bloke and my girlfriend is sleeping around behind my back. I dumped her but she wants me back" the reply is "You are a nazi! You deserve to be cuckolded for being such a hatemonger!".

She's terrible.

As for the issue, well it would be better to stay in shape anyway, how would he react if she started to gain weight? Probably in exactly the same way (apart from the refusing sex, men can't do that). I'd advise him to get down the gym and stop drinking booze so much. But that's what I did myself so I would say that.

[eleanor]

Thing is, I don't think there would have been the same advice if the genders had been reversed - she'd probably have said "Your boyfriend is intolerant" or something.

(I do notice that she always tells married couples to work at it, even if the man has been having yearly affairs... madness.)

I was trying to say that although it is probably good advice to tell someone to live a healthier lifestyle, she could have left it at telling him to see his GP. Truth is, there are loads of euphemisms for fat women (plus-size, larger, curvy, womanly etc) yet not so many for men (terms like "fat bastard" are preferred).

In society in general, it seems that a woman is perfectly at liberty to tell a man that he's put weight on, yet if a man did the same to a woman, he'd be in the wrong...

[Chookmeister]

I agree with the agony letter. People should not be generally sneered at and loathed in society for being overweight, but relationships and sex is a different domain where obesity can and should be treated differently.

I can pick and choose who I want to have sex with, and even if I've been in a relationship with someone for four years, if she has put on enough weight that I no longer find her attractive (tbh, in my case, this would have to be a lot of weight, but I sympathise with others nonetheless), then I can't be expected to continue the relationship as though nothing had changed.

The man's girlfriend has expressed displeasure at his weight. The agony aunt has expressed a subjective opinion, and could perhaps have used the words 'can', or 'could be' to be a little more diplomatic. The bottom line, however, is that the girlfriend is not in the wrong, as she can't help what she is and is not attracted to. So I don't think this is a good example of the sexism surrounding men's weight.

But I do agree with your basic premise. There is a double standard surrounding this, but perhaps it has something to do with the fact that men don't do something about it. There are lots of examples of sexism towards men in society, but we tend to sit back and complain that feminists don't do enough for us (as though they have an obligation to give mens' issues 50% of their time and effort, ha!) rather than do something ourselves.

[eleanor]

Aye, the bit in bold was the point I wanted to draw people's attention to (mainly because it's wrong, and also because she wouldn't have said the same thing to a woman who'd put on weight - from what I've seen of this problem page, she'd have sympathised more with a woman in this man's position, and pitied her). I also think that if a man had threatened to leave his overweight girlfriend, the agony aunt would have made at least some reference to the fact that that is a cruel threat to make.

I was actually more shocked by the Britney video clip that I mentioned (although I haven't seen it myself). You would never see that in a music video with the geneders reversed, so why allow it to happen this way?

Originally posted by Chookmeister
There are lots of examples of sexism towards men in society
Post them in this thread! Seriously, I don't think this issue is debated enough at all. I know I only gave a couple of examples but there are many more out there.

[Rogue]

I always thought both overweight men and women were made fun of. In america both sexes seem equally subject to commentary on their weight.

[Twatybollocks]

Originally posted by eleanor
Post them in this thread! Seriously, I don't think this issue is debated enough at all. I know I only gave a couple of examples but there are many more out there.

Examples - In general, woman can say what they want about men, make jokes about them etc and not be accused of being sexist. As soon as a man says something, he's a sexist pig.

In TV adverts, the man is quite often portrayed as the stupid one, while the woman the smart one who always gets the upper hand, e.g. the Homebase Ads.

A man is far less likey to claim sexual harrassment at work, even though it happens.

A man usually loses any case when it comes to who takes care of the kids after a divorce, at best they get restricted access.

There are loads of examples, the problem is the concept of women being sexist is kind of like accusing a black man of being racist...sure it happens, but it is not yet socially acceptable to accuse someone, who's gender or race has historically been abused, of carrying out the same abuse to others.

[squealpiggy]

I agree that the levels of sexism against men is unacceptable in advertising. Men's rights have been annexed somewhat in the whoole run-up to "equality" but there are more men tht are raising a voice to this. Eventually we will probably reach an equilibrium but it will probably swing over the equal point a few times before it settles to a common sense solution.

[almighty_bob]

The entire idea of political correctness has been thrown out the window!!!

No bloke can say anything about women, but women can say what they like, or do what they like, as shown in certain music videos, magazines, etc.

Also when it comes to racial discrimination; "whites" cannt say anything to "blacks", whereas "blacks" are entitled to against whites
eg. Teacher witnesses racism in play ground, coloured child bullying white with racist remarks... Teacher goes to report it in the "racism book", is not allowed to as it is not defined as racism!

also, how comes there is a Black Police Union, but no white Police Union? Surely that is discrimination!?!

The world is going mad I tell you!!!!

It should be mentioned however, that this does not give anyone the authority to be racist/sexist and use my writing as an excuse!!!

[Dr-Electro]

Aye! 'Tis gender bashing! String her up!

No, no, tolerance is much better than hate crimes like lynching. She does, however, strike a vulnerable chord in men. And once again my lovely and incredibly intelligent daughter has hit the nail squarely on the head.

I have been the target of man-bashing entirely too many times. I don't like it and have never reciprocated. I have been accused of being a sexist simply because I opened a door for a petite woman carrying an enormous load of Christmas packages. What a snooty feminist she was! I would have done exactly the same had it been a man or child or even a sea turtle. I know personally how hard it is to open a door when you have no hands free.

I have also had to endure the nastiness of women who make disparaging remarks about men's sexual organs. There have been a few times that women who have never seen me undressed have made nasty comments about my genitalia right to my face in a crowded room! This was also wothout any provocation from me whatsoever.

In the one case, a female coworker made bold, loud reference to my, (blush) "teeny-weeny," in a staff lounge filled with coworkers. I filed a sexual harrassment grievance against her and won. She was given a written reprimand. (Big deal!!) If I had made heference to her genitalia, regardless of the situation, I would still be swinging from the hanging tree.

Is society stupid? Are women just more crude than men? Are men acceptable targets when women are not? I am in favor of equality, not gender bias. I have been the victim of gender bias. Men, if you live long enough, about 80% of you will be the eventual victims of gender bias. Why must we always live under a double standard? I assert that I personally do not deserve to.

*rated 5 and a + with a "fatherly" pat on the tush*

[Leftit]

Originally posted by Twatybollocks
Examples - In general, woman can say what they want about men, make jokes about them etc and not be accused of being sexist. As soon as a man says something, he's a sexist pig.

Sure the woman wouldn't be called a sexist pig, but she'd probably be labled a feminazi.

In TV adverts, the man is quite often portrayed as the stupid one, while the woman the smart one who always gets the upper hand, e.g. the Homebase Ads.

It's merely an advertizing ploy. While men complain about women getting the upperhand in commercials directed towards them, women complain about women being objectified in commercials that appeal to men. I think it pretty well evens out.

A man is far less likey to claim sexual harrassment at work, even though it happens.

I haven't seen the figures on this, but unless men who bring sexual harrassment cases to court are discriminated against by the court system, I would think that it's more likely personal pride that keeps them from making that claim. Society teaches men that they have to be strong, and makes them feel as though they are less of a man if they ask for help. In my opinion, this is a stupid, backwards way of thinking, but as long as men continue to accept it, the stigma will remain. It's like women with their weight. Most of them still harbour the picture of the skinny perfect girl as their ideal, so that's the standard that they are judged by.

A man usually loses any case when it comes to who takes care of the kids after a divorce, at best they get restricted access.

Ironically enough, this type of thinking is probably based on the rather sexist idea that women should be the ones at home raising the kids. It's definately an outdated concept and should be fought.

There are loads of examples, the problem is the concept of women being sexist is kind of like accusing a black man of being racist...sure it happens, but it is not yet socially acceptable to accuse someone, who's gender or race has historically been abused, of carrying out the same abuse to others.

This really shouldn't be so. The fight against racism shouldn't be about getting your race the advantage over everyone else, and the same goes for feminism. Unfortunately, I think the solution is for every group to be represented by a collective who will fight for their rights; at least that way there would be checks and balances to ensure that progress did not head too far in one direction.

[notmarcie]

As a feminist I just want to say most realistic and even some radical feminists would abhor the sexist treatment of men. I don't hate men, I hate patriachy and all forms of sexism which result in unfair treatment of anybody based on their gender and/or biological sex. I would also love somebody to open the door for me when I am balancing three shopping bags, an umbrella , a coat and a handbag with knitting needles sticking out of it.

As far as weight goes, I think that instead of reaching a stage where womens weight is ignored as a measure for attractiveness and seen purely as a health thing, we have come to a stage where we judge men by the same fascist beauty standard that has little to no basis in reality.

I agree that the advice given would be different if it was a woman who had put on weight, her partner would be encourage to see curves as sexy, and told to look at the paintings of Rubenesque women to see how attractive a round belly can be.

As for it not being sexy, well my partner is overweight and I still love him. Sexy is a subjective thing, some people just have a natural preference for slimmer or bigger partners, just as they prefer black or blonde hair. The agony aunt is wrong to try to prescribe a standard of what is sexy based on her preference. My advice would have been to lose weight for health reasons, with support from his doctorand to lose the excess baggage girlfriend too.

A lot of the pejorative terms for both overweight men and women are perpetuated by their own sex. Fat Bastard is a favoured insult of football supporters when heckling the other team (bizzare as I've never seen any fat footballers who are playing on a regular basis). Sadly there still are some really horrific male attitudes to overweight women, type "sweat hogging" into google.
As for terms for overweight men, there are things like stocky, and well built, stolid and sturdy.

I hate the B&Q adverts not so much because they are anti men, but just because they insult anyones intelligence, ditto with car adverts, and the one for Direct Line with the snooty women being surprised at a clean car etc. They perpetuate the idea of the helpless male who needs a woman to keep him in check and harm both men and women

[squealpiggy]

I have been the target of man-bashing entirely too many times. I don't like it and have never reciprocated. I have been accused of being a sexist simply because I opened a door for a petite woman carrying an enormous load of Christmas packages. What a snooty feminist she was! I would have done exactly the same had it been a man or child or even a sea turtle. I know personally how hard it is to open a door when you have no hands free.


The exact same thing has happened to me! It's utterly pathetic I was still in school, I held the door open for a woman in her 20s or so she appeared and she really ripped into me for being sexist... I was simply doing the polite thing I always do for people and always have, I have been brought up to hold the door for people following me. And she was a shit. If she had said that today I would hve told her to stick her shopping up her arse but as a teenage boy being harangued like that was just cowardly on her part.

[Chookmeister]

Originally posted by notmarcie
As a feminist I just want to say most realistic and even some radical feminists would abhor the sexist treatment of men.

Yes, this is true. Many men find that hard to believe, but the fact of the matter is that feminists can't be feminists if they support male subversion.

One of the reasons that some (a lot of?) people think that feminists are out of touch is the fact that they don't tend to campaign on mens' behalves. But as you hint at, this is not because they find sexist treatment of men acceptable, but for other reasons.

[Dr-Electro]

Thank you for that input, Notmarcie. You have a strong tendency to come across as an intelligent and thoughtful individual. It's just a shame I didn't meet you at the door instead.

Some of your posts point up in a clearer way what I was trying to say: that equality means everybody is treated the same. Not preferential treatment for any group or side. I also remember having heard some of the feminist women in the Seventies saying that they expected equal treatment from men, even if it meant thay had to get the door for themselves. One did say that she would never complain if anybody, man or woman, helped her when she needed help.

Leftit, you are like the voice of reason in the wards of Bedlam. Well said.

Once again striving for balance and fairness, I need to point out that some people use the term "feminist" in a slanderous fashion. That is, the "feminist" is automatically thought of as a man-hater who deserves to be locked away for the good of society. This is not the case, as eloquently pointed out by Notmarcie.

[Rogue]

Originally posted by Dr-Electro


Some of your posts point up in a clearer way what I was trying to say: that equality means everybody is treated the same.


I think that men and women should have equal opportunities to make their lives happy. However, men and women are different from each other. I think a world where a woman got treated exactly like a man by another man would be a bit passionless and sterile.

[Dr-Electro]

Originally posted by Rogue
I think that men and women should have equal opportunities to make their lives happy. However, men and women are different from each other. I think a world where a woman got treated exactly like a man by another man would be a bit passionless and sterile.

And possibly painful. I see the differences between men and women. Some of them are necessary to the survival of the human race. I really did mean equal opportunity.

[ZekeyLizard]

There is definitely nastiness toward fat people.


Back in MiddleSchool I was a tad chubby.
Because of this, I was beaten up daily by a group of girls. I never fought back because it is against my morals to hit a woman.

My morals have changed since then and so have I.
Im still not thin. But I am much more muscular than fat.
Very few mess with me nowadays.

[notmarcie]

Equality does't mean being the same, I see it in this way, I have £1 in each of my pockets, as £1 coin and 2 50p coins. They have equal value, but are't the same, just in the same way men and women are equally valuable but not the same.

As for doors, courtesy and manners, I am polite to everybody, its just part of being a decent human !
Its sad that feminist seems to be a pejorative term amongst the press and most of my generation which is why I do my best to point out that a feminist is fighting sexism not men. Personally I kinda like you lot and your XY chromasones !

[vampiress]

double standards irk my to the core of my being.

i always say i am not the feminist, because i don't want better treatment. i just want to be treated like a human. i hate the uberfems who want all these consessions made so women can have the same jobs as men. i find it patronizing that they feel the need to fight on my behave to have standards lowered or a double standard set so that "i" may participate in a typically male activity. if a women can do the same thing as a man go for it, i do nto think women should be denied access, but i am so tired of setting a different standard for women. anyone been golfing lately? the freaking women's tee pisses me off. i refuse to use it. (not that it matters as i suck at golf, butt hat's a whole story for a whole different thread...)

*edit* sorry didn't mean to get slightly off topic** i hate the way weigh is treated in ads and self help articles/books. you are correct men are chided for expecting women to be walking barbie dolls, but when women expect a ken doll, it is socially acceptable. ugh double standard.

[notmarcie]

This runs the risk of going off topic from Eleanor's original post.

But, I'll say it anyway, my favourite feminist slogan is

Feminism:The radical notion that women are people too.

[Mexican Pie]

Femenist Nazi's: The hardcore feminists that take even eye contact from a man as sexual harrasment.

Dude, just take out all heavy sexual harrassers- men, women, the gender does not matter.

I fucking hate Feminist Nazi's! They are just so unfair. I was brought up knowing that all people are equal- looks like I was wrong, wasn't I, Femi Nazi's? Society is just so stuffed up- like a yarn of wool that needs to be unstrung to see the straight lines.

I have nothing against Feminists- I only hate those who abuse the system.

[SweetDreams]

Originally posted by Rogue
I always thought both overweight men and women were made fun of. In america both sexes seem equally subject to commentary on their weight.

this is true, and not just in america either, it happens here in australia aswell, yes, men and women equally share the burden and harrassment of bieng overweight, but what most people are saying is that it is more socially acceptable to humiliate men for having flab, if either a man or woman made a rude comment about a man being fat, everyone around would just shrug it off and think nothing of it, where if either a man or woman made a nasty comment directed at an overweight woman, then the woman would most certainly make a big deal out of it, physically contract of the bad kind would likely take palce (slap for a man, nail scratch or the such for a woman) but what i'm saying is, as most peopel have mentioned before, men are less respected in the sense of physicalities, a fat man is jsut an evryday thing, a fat woman is "ewwwwwwwww!!!!!! that's disgusting" yes, men seem to not notice it and it looks as tohguh it's jsut a harmless comment made at them, but the truth is, men are jsut better at hiding how they feel, they feel the same inside, but they know that they "shouldn't" take any offecne to the comment, so they make it look as tohugh they don't

[Beef Magic]

When women went so far as to commiting suicide to get women's right to vote, men finally caved in and let them have the vote. Controversal in the early 1900's, but we expect everyone registered to have a legal vote.

Maybe everything is turning back on us men now that women are given some equal oppunities?

[notmarcie]

The way I view it is that instead of becoming more progressive and working to a stage where things like women's appearances don't matter we have become regressive and applied the same ridiculous standards to men. By we I mean society as a whole.


In the same way we have seen the worst aspects of stereotypical male behaviour being aped by women in the name of progress and equality, the whole laddette thing. Yes, because more people acting stupidly and drunkenly is just what we need. More people fighting and being aggressive. Instead of taking the best aspects of being male and female and offering them to all we seem to be bent on oppression of all and calling it equality.

[Rogue]

Originally posted by notmarcie
The way I view it is that instead of becoming more progressive and working to a stage where things like women's appearances don't matter we have become regressive and applied the same ridiculous standards to men. By we I mean society as a whole.




Like it or not, both males and females are judged on their appearance. IT is just something that humans do.

I do it all the time. If i see a suspicious looking man with shifty eyes standing by my car in a dark parking lot i am gonna think twice about approaching my car.

[notmarcie]

I think you missed my point. I was refering more to the idea that there is a perfect shape we should all be as was discussed at the beginning of the debate, a standard of beauty we should aspire to rather than a judgment based on potential behaviour or the situation.
If you see a man standing by your car in a dark car park you are judging him on the fact he may attack you , hurt you, steal from you, damage your car , you are not judging him based on the fact that he is fat or has ginger hair.
Unless of course you think that being fat and having ginger hair predispose you to being criminal

[Rogue]

no i knew what you were talking about.

I was just trying to illustrate a way in which judging someone by their appearance is part of our humanity.

If the man near to my car was a respectable looking old guy in a suit talking to another respectable looking old guy in a suit i would be less worried about the situation.

most men are geared up to look at women in a sexual way. I am not saying that this is a good thing: I am saying it is the way it is!

furthermore women judge men on their appearance all the time.

I think that these judgmental thoughts should be kept to oneself however (unless they are about cleanliness, neatness etc.).

The beauty standards will not die. But they should not become the sole way we judge/react to someone.

[eleanor]

Originally posted by ZekeyLizard
Back in MiddleSchool I was a tad chubby.
Because of this, I was beaten up daily by a group of girls. I never fought back because it is against my morals to hit a woman.
Wow, that must have been a very difficult situation. Was there anyone at your school who could have helped (teachers etc), or were you (understandably if so) too embarrassed to go for help?