Israel

[squealpiggy]

In Britain especially most of the TV footage that we see about the Palestine issue is of Israeli tanks rolling along while young kids throw rocks at them. The Israeli troops are seen returning fire with rifles. This naturally gives the impression that Israel is an oppressive regime trying to quell and uprising using violence. However to counter this somewhat the Israeli government has released this (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?swiU04uq0) footage to show their side of the story. It is the aftermath of a recent suicide bombing. This is what the civilians of Israel (a democratic free country like Britain or the US) have to contend with on a daily basis. The main page for the footage is here (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/home0202.htm).

Please note that this footage is extremely graphic and unpleasant and I was really deliberating as to whether or not I should post it on here. Please don't look at it if you feel you may be offended or overly upset by it. I am posting it purely to provide another viewpoint of the conflict.

[pipedreams]

Hi all.

I will not check these links, as I have a vivid imagination and can guess roughly to what I will see.

You must be able to hear both sides of a story to give fair judgment. So thanks for bringing this up.

--:weebl:--

However so long as they argue their case, they will always be arguing though.


Tough situation dont you think.

[Dom]

i agree with you here and there was never any doubt in my mind that they do sadly have to put up with alot these so called religous extremists are sadly just using religion as an excuse for their own political agenda. sadly i feel that this has been happening for along time ive been looking for statistics on roughly how many suicide bombings have been occuring in recent years. because it would be intresting to corrolate (spelling) the results against each other.

[squealpiggy]

Watching the footage really opened my mind because all too often you see "Suicide bomber, 11 dead" and just ignore it. Every time I read about a suicide bomber I will now have in my mind exactly what that means, the extent of the devastation...

[pipedreams]

This type of propaganda by the Authorities is more a way of justifying what they are doing. It is not a solution.

I think we (sorry for the presumptions) well never now exactly what the extent of the devastation is.

That’s the problem, when this sort of things happens to you personally, you are going to be totally one sided.

[squealpiggy]

So if it is footage released showing Israelis as being innocent victims then it is propaganda, if it shows Palestinians as victims then it is the truth?

This is a civilian who has videoed the wreckaged caused from a suicide bombing. When someone straps explosives to themselves and detonates them on a packed busy bus this is what happens. I've seen the results of bombs going off in Manchester, that is what it looks like. Maybe if you can see the actual devastation and wreckage caused by this you will to a degree understand the situation that Israeli people are in.

The camera in part pans by and you see a Jewish skullcap lying in the dirt next to a schoolkid's homework. These are the people that are dying. Not soldiers. Not politicians. People like you, your friends, borthers and sisters, parents. This is why it is important to keep an open mind whenever there is conflict.

[Dom]

cant you see that everyone is a victum?

if you can tell me who actually benifits (spelling?) from suicide bombings i would like to hear it.

everyone loses in war

[pipedreams]

I choose my words carefully.

Thats why I said Authorities, my argument can be laid at the feet of either side, in any conflict?

All Im saying is its good to show a different view, or try to explain your actions.

But it isnt a cure, more to the contrary


I can understand people wanting to take action if they have been harmed, this is why these conflicts are so hard to end, no?

[almighty_bob]

I'm sorry, but despite not agreeing with suicide bombers, I have to side with Palestine in the conflict. The Palestine people are being driven from their homes by invaders! What is going on is no better than the German expansion for "Lebensraum" in WW2.
Although I am a Liberal when it comes to politics, i do NOT agree with the recent sacking of the BRAVE woman who spoke out with contoversial issues! What she said was taken out of context; as many things are. The pressure then piled on the party to sack her!

America (and many nations) are supporting Israel... Why? Because they won't admitt that they made a mistake by dumping the Jewish refugees in Palestine!

[squealpiggy]

True. Although it could be argued that this is "propaganda" the assumtpion with the "P" word is that it is somehow falsified. I would call it a balance to all the footage we see of suffering Palestinians. I can honestly say that I have never seen graphic footage of Israeli victims before, though I have seen graphic footage of Palestinians clutching their dead children etc.

[notmarcie]

I watched a long and really horrific documentary on female suicide bombers both in Palestine and Checnya (the women in the Moscow theatre siege were the ones with explosive strapped to them). The victims of Palestinian bombers are ripped to pieces. Like SP I have seen what a bomb did to Manchester, and even without loss of human life its devastating and demoralising. That's what suicide bombers have to gain.

I try to balance out my Propaganda intake by viewing US and UK media on Israel. They are very different, and somewhere in the middle there is some truth.

I am against violence as a means to an end. No amount of suicide bombers will result in a free Palestine, it will just lead to more and more bulldozing of Palestinian settlements which leads to more suicide bombings.

I am equally against illegal Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. I am not talking about the creation of Israel in 1947, but the establishment of Israeli settlement now in land they are not supposed to be in. I read an interview with an American Jew who had settled and helped establish an illegal settlement. He essentially believed that he as an immigrant had more right to the land than the people who had farmed the area for the last 400 years.

Its that mentality that has to change, and bombs, tanks and concrete walls won't achieve that, but rather increase the mindset.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
I'm sorry, but despite not agreeing with suicide bombers, I have to side with Palestine in the conflict. The Palestine people are being driven from their homes by invaders! What is going on is no better than the German expansion for "Lebensraum" in WW2.
Although I am a Liberal when it comes to politics, i do NOT agree with the recent sacking of the BRAVE woman who spoke out with contoversial issues! What she said was taken out of context; as many things are. The pressure then piled on the party to sack her!

America (and many nations) are supporting Israel... Why? Because they won't admitt that they made a mistake by dumping the Jewish refugees in Palestine!

In 1947 Israel was created as a nation and given to the Jewish people by Britain. The land was to be shared with existing Arab settlers. These settlers were advised by foreign Arab nations to flee their home for the Jews were determined to slaughter them all. This was never a plan, and a people who had escaped mass slaughter by the nazis were in no position and had no desire to follow that course of action. But the Palestinian arabs left in droves. However they were not welcomed by the nations that told them to flee. They were told that they had abandoned their land to an enemy and as such brought shame to the Arab people. They were told that the only way to get rid of this shame was to drive the Jews back out of Arab land.

The purpose of suicide bombers is not to stop Israel from occupying Palestinian settlements. It is one step in the war against a Jewish nation on what is seen as Arab land. Groups such as Hamas make no secret of the fact that their eventual aim is not peace, it is the annihilation of Israel. While groups like Hamas keep launching attacks on civilians, hardline Israeli leaders continue to be elected. If the Palestinian leaders would accept concessions towards peace that have been made by Israel then the conflict could be ended very quickly. However whenever it looks likely that a peace deal could be struck there is a hardliner throws a spanner in the works and we're back to square one.

This is not a case of Israel oppressing Palestine, it's a case of both Israeli and Palestinian hardliners wrecking any peaceful motions.

[sack the chimp]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
However whenever it looks likely that a peace deal could be struck there is a hardliner throws a spanner in the works and we're back to square one.

This is not a case of Israel oppressing Palestine, it's a case of both Israeli and Palestinian hardliners wrecking any peaceful motions.

Yep. Anyone got anything more than that to say, cause I dont, and any sensible discussion on the subject either ends here, or with hardliners bleating on about which side is wrong.

Put your solution for peace on a postcard and send to this address......

[Dr-Electro]

SP PMed me with his idea for this thread. I was not able to watch the whole movie. I did however agree that this could be an interesting topic.

My intention is to gather opinions from our fellow forumites about:

1. The amateur video
2. The Arab-Israeli situation in general
3. Avoid taking sides, meaning pro-Arab or pro-Isreali
4. Discuss any shared experiences, similar to the amateur video and the aforementioned bombing in Manchester

I have personally witnessed suicide bombings, not in Israel or Manchester, but in Viet Nam. Those insane bastards would strap explosives to children and send the children into our camps and bases, then set off the bombs! I want to vomit every time I think of it and that is the only part of my many experiences in Viet Nam that I still have nightmares about.

I have also watched Buddhist fanatics immolate themselves in public and adult suicide bombers charge head-on into our gunfire in an attempt to take a few of us out with him. I have also witnessed their use of goats and donkeys as "suicide" bombers.

The Arabs do not have a world monopoly on suicide bombers.

BAck to the original topic: I have no idea what can be done to help end the violence over there. Heaven knows that the United States, for one, has been trying to promote peace in the Middle East for as long as I have been alive. Sometimes I think those poor suckers might have been better off under continuing Brithsh rule. Then again, they may be beyond anyone's control. They only seem to get worse.

Anything to add to what I have tossed into the ring?

[notmarcie]

Ahem, just to clarify, SP and I haven't witnessed the effect of a suicide bomber in our home city, just the destruction a bomb can cause and how demoralising and devastating it is even when there is no loss of human life.