Msn closing down chatrooms

[alsie boo]

I think it's a good idea, there are too many pedophiles and not enough moderators. I know there are other chat rooms, but this could start something off. Chat programs, like odigo should be discouraged ( you can see everyone who is online, do a search for people of a certain sex and age etc, perfect for pedophiles). If you want to go the whole way, the internet should be banned. Then again, that would ruin my whole life.

[Smeagle]

I think what microsoft is doing is completely right, peadophelia is absolutely disgusting. As far as I'm concerned they should all be killed (well, the ones who act on their impulses anyway). I know it sounds harsh, but the experiences they force on innocent young children can leave them scarred for life, and if I had to choose between letting a peadophile die or indefinitely ruining a childs life, I know which one I'd choose.

That doesn't stop microsoft closing the chat rooms being annoying, I don't use the public rooms but I am a member of several private rooms, and it would be irritating to see them go.

But it's definitely worth it.

[Liria]

Who's to stop them from shutting down forums like this next?
What's the difference in people getting together for 'meets' from a forum as opposed to a chat room?

You say this forum is moderated?
What's an 'appropriate moderator?' Unless I miss my guess, there are some people moderating here who are barely of 'legal age'... are they appropriately trained to weed out paedophiles? Do they read all PMs to see if someone is trying to hit on someone else?

Careful what you wish for or think is appropriate. 'They' start cutting back on more and more freedoms that way.

There comes a point where someone has to be held responsible. What happens is that everyone tries to say the responsibility should be on everyone else. Eventually, someone just takes what responsibility there is left and doesn't give you any options anymore.

Perhaps it should be the parents of the children. Perhaps it should be on the children, themselves. If the child isn't old or mature enough, or hasn't been prepared enough for such decisions, then should the child be allowed to be in the situation?

It certainly shouldn't be on Microsoft to police. So instead, to save harassment (or perhaps just operational fees), Microsoft shuts it down, denying it to anyone unless a moderator is available.

Does this solve anything? No. Those who are going to do it will do so by other means, both the potential children and the potential paedophiles involved. It just takes away from those few who don't know where else to go.

I'm not saying it won't save lives. I'm not saying it's entirely a bad thing. I'm saying really examine it.

[Spoo]

I'm really unsure about this. I think the wrong areas are being targeted.

Parents should monitor what their kids do on-line i think. Just like they should monitor what films they watch etc..

When MSN goes down doesn't it mean people will just flood to AOL or Yahoo rooms?

This does affect some people who use chat rooms legitamatley and as a way of making friends. I have a few friends im still in contact with that i made a couple of years ago on MSN when i spent a lot of time in a few rooms.

However "sad" somepeople may think it is, there are people who, for whatever personal reasons, use the internet as their social life. For instance a good friend of mine was a single mum who couldnt get out and socialise IRL so used the 'net.

Is it disproportinate to start shutting down chat rooms because of the actions of a small portion of people? I think society should look at what makes these people tick and find out what we can do to lock these people up.

Parents should take more responsiblity. And children should be educated to not become victims.

[PiesInTheory]

I didn't like the msn chatrooms so serves them right

And yeah there are a lot of scary people out there. I try to avoid chatrooms in general, and yes I agree that the other ones will probably become overcrowded and suffer the same fate. I have met one person I regularly talk to in a chatroom. I think that's even more than most people.

[Sloth]

uh.. i think we are a tad bit confused on what msn is closing... msn is just stopping a free service... they are not banning the use of chatrooms... they are just stopping a liability issue... this is the world where gun manufacturers are being sued for gun shot accidents... Mircosoft knows good and well that if parents felt like it they could sue them for allowing a pedophile a chance to rape and/or kill their children...

you can still use irc... and you can still use your forums...

yes people will just go to aol or yahoo... but that’s just it... mircosoft doesn't care... its not their problem anymore...

[Magpie]

you're both right.

the MSN Messanger service is shutting down in october for those who won't pay.

but the chatrooms are being banned fullstop soonish because of peadophiles

[Dirt_Monkey]

i think its completely stupid.

take a while to think about it. unless every chatroom that exists is shut down then paedophiles will continue to use them.

all the kids that did use the microsoft ones are going to go elsewhere to less moderated more dodgy chat rooms.

shutting them down does not solve the problem, it just spreads it elsewhere and could very possibly make it a whole lot worse

a completely stupid idea that could endanger more kids, not keep them safe

[Ouroboros]

That's just what sloth was getting at though, Microsoft don't care what the kids go and do then, because they can't be held resposible. Tis a sad thing.

[PiesInTheory]

Originally posted by Magpie
the MSN Messanger service is shutting down in october for those who won't pay.
[/B]

WHAT???? *screams uncontrollably*

[Smeagle]

Seriously, the whole service?!

Argh no!

I thought it was just the chatrooms!




*gets trillian instead* ;)

[PiesInTheory]

Yeah I had trillian I quite liked it...it does lack the features of messenger, the cool icon pictures and all that stuff, but if it's the only FREE option... I think that's crap if they are planning on charging for messenger. I mean, does it even cost anything much to them for running it?

[Evilone]

10 times a year or so in a country of over 50 million is hardly a major problem.

Microsoft is acting rashly and irresponsibly, as everyone will just switch media. You can't moderate everyone, instead you need parents exposed to less scare tactics, and simply given good advice to warn their children ie, giving no details like address, and no meeting without an adult present.

Oh and Smeagle - kill the paedophiles? Stop acting like a complete nazi, there is no crime in existance that justifies murder (ie the death penalty).

[TEX_Cougar]

With the risk of sounding childish, i think it's really stupid.
I used to use chatrooms a fair bit (until i grew up) and made a couple of friends who i talk to a lot, but if your gonna meet a complete stranger, things can possibly turn bad.
Anyone who goes out to meet up with someone from a chatroom who they havent even talked to on the phone or over msn or something for ages, obviously lacks a little thing called common sense.
If you plan to meet someone, you try and work out who it is before you go up and say hi or something, or you go into a crowded place. I dont get it, teenagers that get taken away, did they meet in a dark alley all alone of something? i can see how its feasibly possible to confuse a chatroom friend in real life with like a 40 year old man.
As for forum meets, ive never been to one, but i might take the time to goto a weebl and bob one, theres going to be a lot of people (especially on this forum) so its gonna be kind of safe, as i dont think a peodophile would take the time and effort to wait for a forum meet to come up, and pick up a kid.
sorry if i went on, but its basically the old cliche of 'i blame the parents' who have obviously not taught their kids basic common sense.

oh and the whole msn messenger issue, unless its a REALLY small charge (which isnt neccessary), i dont think many people are gonna pay. if it was even really cheap, i reckon id still lose half my contacts who wont pay. MSN are gonna lose a lot of popularity over this and yahoo or AIM are gonna make in from it

[ash]

i cant imagine that msn messenger is a profitable enterprise though. wouldnt like to guess how much it costs though

[TEX_Cougar]

Msn has to be making money somewhere, which is why its so big, and the money is most likely related to how many people use it, so when people have to pay for msn messenger, they are gonna lose popularity, and hence, a lot of money.
I remember having a website on homestead. it was a fantastic free webhosting thing, which was really easy to use with a WYSIWYG website editor.
Then they started charging. I dont think it was as popular, and i dont see very many homestead websites around anymore.

[mini_ninja_pir8]

NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....... ok msn messenger is gonna b shut down 2 ????i mean it was a really good descision 2 shut down the chat rooms......i dont use them coz i find that their boring..............but msn messenger,,.......how unfair!!! but anyway...i reckon what microsoft did was a good thing.....2 many people are taking advantage of children......and of course there are many,many user created chat rooms on the net that dont have system moderators to watch the progress.........



but taking msn messenger away....thats not fair.........besides........on msn(messenger) u only talk to people that u know...and if u dont trust someone u block and delete them!!!!!!!:twisted:

[mini_ninja_pir8]

Originally posted by Smeagle
Seriously, the whole service?!

Argh no!

I thought it was just the chatrooms!




*gets trillian instead* ;)
ok someone please tell me how 2 get this trillian instead......+ just a thought ............microsoft said it was free 2 download and keep............arent they kinda contradicting themselves....oh..and most people wont pay 4 it.............i think i will totally scream!!!!!!*screams*

[The Digital Pie]

Its all a bad dream
Its all a bad dream
Its all a bad dream
Its all a bad dream
Its all a bad dream

This can't be, havent they heard of parental locking programs that stop chat room and instant messengers from working?

[Shpox]

yes .. its a big matter.
Its mainly underaged kids coming in spamming and swearing and older people coming and swearing, pedo's. Keeps going. I know there are twats at msn chat but there are some that are good. What are they suppose to do ?. Just like to say if you are one of those good people and cant live without i suggest make a group and use the chat. They ban chat .. so what. There still will be bad peeps . I thinks its actually worse. Now if people create group , underaged kids will go there and the pedo's will follow. They cant stop. Its gna be more directed after october 14. I mean im not opposed that their shutting, im saying that there are good chatters and it ruins their expirience. Its good they're making it safer but they cant stop it all.

Msn also says this :
ninemsn Chat

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As part of an overall effort by ninemsn and Microsoft to provide consumers with a safer, more secure and positive overall online experience, ninemsn has decided to no longer offer ninemsn Chat in this market beginning October 14 2003. However, ninemsn will continue to provide special event chats with celebrity guests.

This change is intended to help protect ninemsn users from unsolicited information such as spam and to protect children better from inappropriate communication online.

Why is ninemsn doing this?

The increase in abuse of the Internet, such as the massive growth of spam and the increase in unsolicited and inappropriate material, particularly with regards to children, has led us to this decision.

What other ninemsn services can I use?

ninemsn’s vision is to offer its customers a choice of best of breed communication services
to help them better connect with the people and information that matters most wherever
they are.
ninemsn Premium: premium internet subscription service offering advanced communication software including junk mail filters, rich e-mail features, parental controls and e-mail accounts for all the family. Learn more...
MSN Messenger: the most popular, fun and personal way to chat online. Learn more...
ninemsn Groups: create your own community for keeping in touch and sharing the latest information. Learn more...
ninemsn Hotmail: the world’s largest free web based e-mail service. Learn more...
ninemsn Extra Storage: Enables Hotmail users to take advantage of larger storage capacity. Learn more...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just so your wondering, i think they're doing the correct thing but what to do with the good chatters ? i dont know.

I dotn think they are going to shut down messenegr. The above message from 9msn was in Australia anyway.
Ps: Yes , you hopefully will be seeing me in mIRC.

[Dirt_Monkey]

if you guys want trillian (which i already have :) ) go to trillian mainpage (http://www.trillian.cc)

[PoofBird]

Liability suits was what I was thinking.

There is no way in the world Microsoft could seriously think they'll help out little kids in protecting them from paedophiles.
There are thousands of alternatives to chat.
Kids will use the alternatives.
Paedophiles will too.

And what's the craze about paedo's anyway. I agree they're bad and criminal, but is it such a big deal?

Are there more paedo's then 10, 50 or 100 years ago? Are they a bigger threat?
Is there any information suggesting their number has risen?
Ok, they use internet to contact victims, it's easier to come on to a kid then on a playground.
On the other hand, it's easier for the kid to close of the chat without getting molested.
I fail to see any reason why paedophilia is a bigger problem on the internet.
The main responsibility, as it has always been, lies with the parents. They should teach their children not to talk to strangers, and certainly not strangers who ask if their daddies touch them at night (known tactic).

If you say: death to paedophiles or anything of that order, you should really stop and think for a minute.
Paedophilia is a sexual preference. We, as a society, have decided we will not allow it, and think it's morally wrong. I agree with that, and so do you all (probably).
Observe that the name paedophile means someone who loves children and is attracted to them. They will not, as a rule, want to hurt children by taken advatage of them or hurting them in any way.
Only a very small part will ever risk hurting children by rape and/or murder. Often, other aspects like psychiatric problems are a major influence as well.
The fact that they are a paedophile is not what makes the act a crime! It's the fact that commited a terrible thing such as molesting, rape or murder! Most paedo's, though we disaprove of their preferences, will never ever do such a thing.

Those of you agreeing with microsoft because they didn't like the chatrooms anyway, should grow up, because this is a pretty serious subject.

So, I don't think the threat of paedo's is that big, and microsoft's action is in no way reducing that threat. There are enough possibilities to chat.

It's part of the screwed up American mentality to sue. People sueing McDonalds because the coffee they spilt on themselves was hot, people sueing supermarkets their floors were too slippery, people sueing tobacco-companies their cigarettes were dangerous.
It hardly ever happens, at all, that kids get kidnapped or raped or anything, over the internet.
Of course, every time it does is one too many, and the guy who did it should be locked up good.
But the chances that it happens outside your door are bigger. The chances are bigger that the molester is a brother or uncle or neighbour.
But in case it does happen in the near future, and it happens in a chatroom facilitated by Microsoft, and the parents will choose to sue...

No, can't let that happen. we'll just close of all rooms, and let the sueing hit some other company.

and i can't even blame them, if a society is crazy enough to hunt down paedophiles like witches (even though in cases they deserve the punishment), thus making the public over-sensitive to anything that even remotely smells like paedo
and a society that will not allow, and cannot accept, that sometimes bad things happen, accidents happen, crime happens...

we can do a thousand things to prevent it, but it will sadly still happen from time to time.
and then we sue! we sue some company who was partially involved in some way... but we have to sue someone, because injustice has happened...

silly idea, really.

[TEX_Cougar]

amen to that poofbird

[mini_ninja_pir8]

i think microsoft s gonna keep on msn..... u c ....msn + lots of $$$$$ 4 microsoft!! if they delete it...sales will go down and people will go 2 other messenger sites

[Spoo]

If MSN had closed down it's chatrooms a few years ago my life would have been completley different. So gather round and i will tell you a tale......


It was February 2000 and i was at my parents house in the middle of nowhere on holiday from Uni. I don't drive and i had no money so everynight i would find myself stuck in the sleepiest village in the county with nothing to do. To keep my self amused i started messing around on chat rooms. Mostly music related ones. One night i got talking to a female guitarist from Maryland USA. We got on really well and chatted about guitars and guitarist for about 3 or 4 hours. We exchanged hotmail addresses.

The inter-semester break from Uni ended and i went back up to Birmingham where i had no internet connection. I did however find the time to keep in touch by e-mail with my new friend. We learnt a lot about each other over the months (and about each others guitars!) and i began to look forward to checking my e-mail for the next installment.

For a while went a bit quite from her end because she had problems with her computer for about a month. But towards the summer we got back in touch. I was at this point planning my trip to Glastonbury Festival. She heard that Paul McCartney was rumoured to be playing and she began trying to convice her parent to let her come over for the festival. It was a long drawn out proccess (by now i was home at my parents house for the summer and could chat to her on Messenger) but eventually it was settled she and her folks would come to england for a holiday and part of the visit would include Glastonbury festival!

By this point we were talking to each other everynight on Messenger. I got myself an international calling account set up and we started talking on the phone. I spoke to her mum and dad and they spoke to my parents (to make sure everything was safe).

We eventually met at the fesitval. We had both thought something might happen when we meet and it did. It was so weird how someone i felt i knew so well i was meeting for the first time!

After glastonbury Morgan (forget to mention her name!) and her family came and stayed in my parents village for a week and then went back to the states.

Eager to see her again i arranged to do work experience at a radio station in Washington for the rest of the summer. I flew out to the states for 2 1/2 months. While i was out there she applied to start a similar degree to mine at my university. She ended up coming back to the UK with me.

We were toghter for 2 1/2 years untill the geography of the world and some other factors lead to us spliting up. We are still the best of friends. She only just left this July and is now living in LA going to a guitar school.

Now if there hadnt been MSN chatrooms a large chunk of my life would have been very different.

[TEX_Cougar]

You see, there are a lot of good tales from chat rooms.
I know its been said millions of times around the world, but they SHOULD NOT close them down. Like someone said, a parental lock for chatrooms and stuff would be ideal, but i know most people know more about computers than their parents and it wouldnt help but parents need to control children who go out and meet people off the internet, if they actually do.

[ike]

i think it's pathetic.
i don't use the msn chatrooms m'self, only ever been in one a few times a while ago.

but closing them down.. to stop paedophiles?
it should be up to the parents, they know if their kid's using the computer, and they'd know the risks that are there - your kid could be talking to some strange old man, so don't let them go on the chat rooms.

but then again, i think only a very small portion of kids would even consider actually meeting up with someone they've met through an internet chat room.. and it's the result of a few stupid ones that are just ruining it for everyone.

if it's true that msn is gonna start costing money because of this, someone deserves some severe slaps.

[Shpox]

Hmm yes. Wheres that online petition thingee. Or ill try to give the reviews in this thread to msn guides maybe we can change their mind but its prob hopeless. I sometimes to chatrooms when im extreamly bored and im stuck here infront of my pc.

[Seraph]

This isnt meant to make this forum sound dodgy or anything... but i bet any money there is at least ONE Paedophile that belongs to this forum.

You cant get away from them, no matter where you are.

Someone look at you strangely today?
Were you talking to someone in a shop?
Did someone stare at you from their car?
Did you meet someone new on the net today?

You dont know who they are, nobody can get away from creeps or anybody else like that. The only difference is on the net, you have the choice to block them and never talk to them again. You have the CHOICE to tell them where you live, or your REAL name..

Dont do it!! Make up a name! A made up area you live in. Tell them you are a supermodel or something.. What does it matter? All this is, is text on a screen. The person on the other side will believe almost anything... cause they have no reason not to.

I agree with 'ike' in saying that all parents know the day that they give a child a PC with internet, that there is some chance they will end up talking to a stranger... If the parent doesnt want this to happen, then why not fix the problem before it happens?
Before its too late?
In a sense, Its the parents fault if something happens to their child over the net, unless the parent has no knowledge of their internet communications. This is all about choice in my opinion.... You have the choice of all things on the net. What you click, what you type, what you allow yourself to see and believe...
Just dont be the stupid one, and fall for something that you know doesnt seem or feel right. Yeah?

Anyways,

Whoever said (cant remember, sorry) that Microsoft is closing down their chats so THEY dont get sued... is correct.
GUH!

Anyways... lets see what happens with it all. :mad: It all pisses me off, Paedophiles and such... whats the point :confused:
...and whats REALLY sad is their reason is simply..
'Because they can.'

'if it's true that msn is gonna start costing money because of this, someone deserves some severe slaps.'

I heard they are only getting rid of the FREE chatrooms, the ones that you have to pay money for will stay. MSN MESSENGER isnt the thing being thrown in the bin. MSN MESSENGER is contact by choice... you have to add people to talk to 'em :P *CHOICE* once again...... :)

[Shpox]

ok shh. look what i found.
http://chat.msn-int.com/
and sign the petition here
http://www.petitiononline.com/msnchat/.

nuff said. :p

[Mystical Parrot]

i doubt msn will give back teh chatrooms even if we sign the petition. it was a really big news event and they're unlikely to go back on their word. whether we like it or not msn are closing their chatrooms and now we must all go and live on irc or other chat programs

[SemiCircle]

*marvels at excellent place to rant*

right-ho.
msn messenger is not closing down; it is going to start charging 3rd party access, which means that trillian is not going to be free any more. which sucks, i know, but there we have it.

this discussion is (as i'm sure everyone knows), highlighting a major flaw in the internet; that is how bloody difficult it is to regulate. it's a paedophile's dream: he can log on to whatever chatroom or forum he likes, lie about his age or whatever, and talk to little kiddies to his heart's content. (funny how the paedophile is always a bloke, isn't it?) it's almost impossible to stop him.
microsoft's efforts are utterly futile. if they make people have to pay for msn, then the paedophile will pay. he still has as much access as before, and the kiddies are no safer. even if he doesn't want to pay, or if microsoft take away the chatrooms altogether, he can always take his 'business' elsewhere. futile. microsoft lose custom, their profits decrease, and the pervert is no worse off.
the one advantage the internet has is that it is all virtual; the paedo gets his kicks from chatting to them, but there is no physical contact, so the kid remains unmolested. that is, unless a meetup occurs.
as we have agreed, you can't stop paedos using the internet to chat to little kiddies, but you can stop the kiddies from actually meeting the pervert. this has nothing to do with microsoft; it is purely the responsibility of the parents. parents should simply be aware of their childs internet contacts, and ensure that the suspicious ones are never met in the flesh.

to summarise, microsoft is achieving nothing by mucking about with msn. i really don't give a toss, because all it'll do is lose them a bit of income, and i don't much like them anyway. if you want to stop your kids being molested by some perv they met on the internet, make sure they don't divulge their address to any suspicious characters.

(blimey, that wasn't an argument, it was a bloody essay!)

[Cookies]

bi think its stupid, closing the MSN chatrooms wouldn't affect me but closing down MSN altogether or making us pay for it definately would. I can't ring my friends all the time or talk 2 my friends in different places, the internet is used for communication as well as information.

I agree with most of u, they can shut down chatrooms but kids are gonna meet pervs someother way. Parents should make sure their kids no how 2 use the internet properly i kno its those boring lectures on net safety, but obviously some kids havn't had that talk yet! A kid walking home from skewl cud meet a perv :mad:

[The Digital Pie]

True , so very true.
Closing down 1 means of online messenging is utely fuitle.
And even if msn does go belly up of asks us for money, we can always go back to ICQ.

And on a closing note all paedophile's should rot in hell the sick freaks.

[wibblethefish]

closing msn messenger...how crappy

ah well mysical parrot and digital pie said everone will go to icq or irc so ultimatly other than gaining microsoft a bit of extra cast it'll solve nothing

[Shpox]

are you guys sure 100 % that messenger is closing ?. Its just the chatrooms in AU.

[The Digital Pie]

From what i've heard it's just the chat rooms, but that's still a reason to be pissed off.

[PoofBird]

a little google or even *gasp* a visit to msn.com suggests there is in no way a plan to close messenger services...

on the contrary, the closing of chats is also an investment in a bigger use of msn messenger.

a hint to all the people who were shocked by the news: check it yourself, it's not hard and it gives answers instantly.

[RockMoNkEy2003]

i think msn is bein nice and i dunno generous coz itll lose em a lot of money, but is makin da web safer n i hope this forum aint closin coz ma veiws might decide to change lol;)

[TEX_Cougar]

The closing down does not make the net any safer whatsoever. In fact, it could make it worse.
When the chatrooms shut down, the 'vunerable kids' will more than likely goto other places to chat or whatever, ones where they may not be familiar with, or ones which have no policy of security or anything. The one thing about msn chat, it was more or less, very reliable, and at least had some measures to prevent bad things. Other chatrooms may not.
So no, msn's decision will not make the net any safer.

[mini_ninja_pir8]

Originally posted by Spooneh
If MSN had closed down it's chatrooms a few years ago my life would have been completley different. So gather round and i will tell you a tale......


It was February 2000 and i was at my parents house in the middle of nowhere on holiday from Uni. I don't drive and i had no money so everynight i would find myself stuck in the sleepiest village in the county with nothing to do. To keep my self amused i started messing around on chat rooms. Mostly music related ones. One night i got talking to a female guitarist from Maryland USA. We got on really well and chatted about guitars and guitarist for about 3 or 4 hours. We exchanged hotmail addresses.

The inter-semester break from Uni ended and i went back up to Birmingham where i had no internet connection. I did however find the time to keep in touch by e-mail with my new friend. We learnt a lot about each other over the months (and about each others guitars!) and i began to look forward to checking my e-mail for the next installment.

For a while went a bit quite from her end because she had problems with her computer for about a month. But towards the summer we got back in touch. I was at this point planning my trip to Glastonbury Festival. She heard that Paul McCartney was rumoured to be playing and she began trying to convice her parent to let her come over for the festival. It was a long drawn out proccess (by now i was home at my parents house for the summer and could chat to her on Messenger) but eventually it was settled she and her folks would come to england for a holiday and part of the visit would include Glastonbury festival!

By this point we were talking to each other everynight on Messenger. I got myself an international calling account set up and we started talking on the phone. I spoke to her mum and dad and they spoke to my parents (to make sure everything was safe).

We eventually met at the fesitval. We had both thought something might happen when we meet and it did. It was so weird how someone i felt i knew so well i was meeting for the first time!

After glastonbury Morgan (forget to mention her name!) and her family came and stayed in my parents village for a week and then went back to the states.

Eager to see her again i arranged to do work experience at a radio station in Washington for the rest of the summer. I flew out to the states for 2 1/2 months. While i was out there she applied to start a similar degree to mine at my university. She ended up coming back to the UK with me.

We were toghter for 2 1/2 years untill the geography of the world and some other factors lead to us spliting up. We are still the best of friends. She only just left this July and is now living in LA going to a guitar school.

Now if there hadnt been MSN chatrooms a large chunk of my life would have been very different.

what a lovely story..............*wipes away tears* chat rooms arent bad places.........u can also meet good people on them....just the evil people we dont like????