Gaeilge - Is it out-dated?

[Bar_Cek]

My answer - hell yeah!

This topic is really for Irish people, but if you're not Irish, curious about the topic and have NO idea what I'm typing, here's the breif version:

Gaeilge is Irish for......Irish. People in Ireland used to speak it 'til the British came along and said "Right chaps, 'ows about you speak our language or we'll stick this 'ere sword up your nose?" We were pretty pissed at the time, but it proved useful for going abroad seeing as about 80% of the Earth's population don't know Ireland has it's own language.
But, I digress. The point of all this is that despite the fact the only speakers are stared at in public, SCHOOLS STILL TEACH IT! And, worse, it's counts for a HUGE percent of your final, secondary school exam!

Now, I want to know whether or not you think it should be taught in schools.
You have 30 seconds. Enjoy!

[Mercury126]

I don't think it should be mandatory in schools although I believe that schools should still offer to teach it. I like Irish and I would really like to improve on my skills, very few people I know share this view. It's a real shame that we are so ignorant of our language and culture, I suppose it is a bit outdated that doesn't mean we should just banish it from our education, it's a massive part of our history. I do agree with you on the point of it having such a big part in the Leaving Cert. For example if I wanted to do a course in radiography in uni, I need to have studied Irish. Why? What possible advantage could that have in taking x-rays and other scans on patients?

Also your sig is too big

[Splush]

I suppose from an outsider's perspective it seems like a nice idea to keep the old language alive, but in practice I'd have been pretty miffed if I'd had to learn Scottish Gaelic at school.

I think most artificial attempts to keep a language alive (or to keep an existing one from changing) are probably doomed to failure, so I can't say I'd support teaching it in schools just for the sake of maintaining Irish heritage. Maybe it's better to let old languages die rather than keep them on life support against their will.

[maxxy_p]

Keeping languages beyond their sell-by-date seems a bit silly; but I think it's terrible the way English is taking over. Anywhere you go, there will always be people who speak English, to the point where other languages and cultures suffer from it. Us English also, because of this, don't take much of an interest in learning other languages because we can usually communicate pretty easily anyway.

Other countries put a lot more effort into learning our language and customs than we do in return.

[Darkscull]

SCHOOLS STILL TEACH IT! And, worse, it's counts for a HUGE percent of your final, secondary school exam!


I don't know much about the irish education system, but i'm fairly sure you have more than one exam at the end of secondary school. And if i'm right in that you do have more than one exam, then you have more than one subject, and i doubt that any exam system ever conceived would use your ability in one subject to grade you on another. (you aren't going to fail maths because you didn't hand in coursework for art, for example). so i think that the statement that studying irish counts for a HUGE percent of your academic qualifications when leaving secondary school is an exaggeration. after all, if it was so important to peoples grades, either more people would speak it than you yourself said, or everyone would be failing and not get jobs.

anyway, in england you have to do a foreign language at gcse, it's mandatory unless you are below a certain level in which case you do key studies (essentially nothing), it's not because they feel you need to know another language, or to keep the languages going, because not many people can speak a language fluently at that level of teaching. rather, they think that you should have experience at learning a language other than your mother tongue, since it will help later in life (the experience, if not the few words you actually remember).

[Bappel]

I suppose from an outsider's perspective it seems like a nice idea to keep the old language alive, but in practice I'd have been pretty miffed if I'd had to learn Scottish Gaelic at school.

I think most artificial attempts to keep a language alive (or to keep an existing one from changing) are probably doomed to failure, so I can't say I'd support teaching it in schools just for the sake of maintaining Irish heritage. Maybe it's better to let old languages die rather than keep them on life support against their will.

They do it in Norway succesfully. They have bokmål which most norwegians speak, but hey also have nynorsk which is tought in school and is the old norwegian spoken before they got invaded by danish people and then swedish people. I think they speak nynorsk up in the northern parts of norway but most norwegians dont speak it. Still everyone has to learn it in school and have big exams on it. Most signs in norway have both languages written on them(I think, the sign that tells you that you enter Norway both says Norge(bokmål) and Noreg(nynorsk). Anyway, some are happy with it while some hate it.
Finland is a bad example. They tried to keep swedish alive, but everyone hated it and now they wont teach it. Not that swedish is a near dead language as the gaeilge seems to be. Though I would think that teaching it and using it would be awsome!! I love languages. Thats what makes other countries so intresting. And I hate that when you come to other countries ar away from home the people are able to speak your language. Well, not everyone. Just the shop owners and resturant owners. "Kom ät här. Mycke gott!! Jättabilligt. Du vill äta här!" When I come to another country I dont want to be understood with my own language. I want to try and comunicate on their language. Even if I might get them laughing their arses off at my poor atempts.

[Splush]

I imagine the Norwegians speak perfect English as well. Bloody over-achievers.

There are parts of the north of Scotland where signs are written in both Gaelic and English, but it's dying pretty quickly I think.

[Broche]

Aren't most signs in Scotland accompanied by gaelic? At least, most of the ones round where I live (West Central) have it.

It's nice for someone who's interested in their culture to be able to learn the traditional language, but compulsary education in schools is a bit much.

[Splush]

I don't think there's any gaelic on signs around here, unless I've just been subconsciously blocking it out. I assumed that sort of thing was confined to the highlands. We are terribly English here in Edinburgh though, wot wot.

[Feawen]

Irish shouldn't be a requirement for degrees that have nothing to do with Irish. But if Irish was taught well, we should have no problem with owning our language. I'm sharing a flat with three americans this year, and it's kinda embarrassing to not know what the weatherwoman is saying on tg4. The simple things.

It'd be nice to be a bit more fluent in it, but I had a hatred for my secondary school irish teacher and the ardleibheal, learning a novel and 13 poems is completely useless. I want to learn to speak.

I used hate Irish being imposed on us, but I realise how good it is to have done a language since age 4 that broadened our language centre and a different kind of syntax. It's not a language out of date, just INCREDIBLY badly taught. It's a pity. The hatred some people have for it is a hatred of the education of Irish, not the language itself.


Do you not find yourself meeting someone and saying "sceal boss? how ya doin?" and "agh, cen t-am e? I gotta be heading off." I wouldn't get rid of those words, they're part of colloquial english now :)

But I wouldn't have gaeilge as my only language. I couldn't do without English, seeing as it's so widespread. It's why american and english companies love our work force. Cheaper and fluent.

Is maith liom mo cúpla focail, ach níl a fhios agam a lán focail as gaeilge... Cén fath? Na scoileanna agus an rialtas. Ba mhaith liom bheith ag caint as gaeilge.. ó h-am go t-am. Nach bhfuil spraoi orthu nuair a abair leo gaeilge!
I am so useless at speaking it, I can only draw the words out of my head when I'm typing :P If I could choose now, it would've been so good to get a bit of gaeltacht school, or at least half of our classes entirely through irish.

[Bar_Cek]

If I could choose now, it would've been so good to get a bit of gaeltacht school, or at least half of our classes entirely through irish.

I'm sad you said that, not because you don't share my view, but becease my mother read that and my young enough to be sent there :shock:

Y'know the way when schoolbooks try to connect with kids, they end up less appealing by doing so? This effect is amphlified when "Learaí" is "on the pigs back", or something like that. Irish phrases, which may once have been considered funny, now just give the feeling no-one has spoken Irish for the past 3 centuries

[argh]

Where I live (Nova scotia Canada) apperently has the second or third highest number of gaelic speakers and now one of the school in Halifax just got money to teach Gaelic as the language reuirement, and kids are taking it. They also teach Miq'mak, but thats also a choice, so maybe they should have classes in it when younger, but when older it's optional out of a number of choices?

[albie_123]

As far as I know, Australia hasn't been speaking Latin all that much, but I still learned it.

Language isn't just for everyday use, it has its place in history, the arts, philosiphy and any form of social science you can think of.

[Bappel]

I imagine the Norwegians speak perfect English as well. Bloody over-achievers.

I know that they think they speak perfect english.

[swarfegahead]

I don't know much about the irish education system, but i'm fairly sure you have more than one exam at the end of secondary school. And if i'm right in that you do have more than one exam, then you have more than one subject, and i doubt that any exam system ever conceived would use your ability in one subject to grade you on another.


Nope, at the end of Secondary school there is the Leaving Cert and thats it.(I'm doing mine at eh end of this school year, gulp!). And Irish is more important than most other subjects when it comes to getting into Uni or college.Its done on a points system. The way thing work is ; for each subject you do there is a maximum of a 100 points (A1 in Higher Level) that you can get, and your are marked out of a maximum of 6 (I think) subjects but you can do more, you'll be marked for your 6 best. However, to actually 'pass' the Leaving, you have to pass Maths, and either English or Irish. If you dont pass, not much chance of getting into Uni. And even then, many courses in Third level require a certain grade in Irish, but I have no clue why.

I say, but I'm not really sure if I'm explaining things very well.Lol!


And I do thing Irish should be a school subject, but it should be a choice, not mandatory. I mean, I really love the language, but I hate doing it in school, for the same reaon I've never done Music or Art in school. I don't really like working with the boundaries and deadlines, I dunno, it kind of kills the enjoyment for me.

[Bar_Cek]

This is my point: it should at least be a option. But will our govornment accept that? Nope. Will the principals? No way. Will the teachers? Maybe, if they hate it. But that's not gonna change anything.

[swarfegahead]

Yeah, chances of it becoming a choice subject are fairly slim. The Board of Educatoin and various Gaeilge groups aren't going to let that happen any time soon, they see it as a way of holding on to our cultural heritage. I can see their point, but I'd still prever to have the choice though.

[Niamhel]

i think its sad our native language is fading away,but i think people should have a choice in learning it.
i was really bad at irish in school, i just couldnt grasp it.
i only barely passed with a ordinary leven D in my leaving cert, and that was with a lot of study!
i think teachers should encourage students who have grasped the language to continue on, and leave the reast of us.

[Felix Barry]

Speaking as an Irish person, I personally don't see the point in forcing people to learn a language.... The fact that it counts for so much in the leaving cert is very intimidating to students.... Often when something has a heavy weight on it, people will try and stear clear of it....

I think Irish as a language would be better off if it wasn't a leaving cert subject but was still thought in schools as a non-optional subject.... It's good to know about your native tongue....

[Bappel]

I hope that this wont happen to sweden. I mean that everyone starts to speak english(or any other world language that might emerge in the future) and totaly forget about swedish.

[katt]

(or any other world language that might emerge in the future) .

like esperanto :p it is totally on its way up

It amazes me people bother to learn a language made up by one guy. but people also learn how to speak klingon which is worse

[Bar_Cek]

I'm told I'm great at Irish. This has the same effect on me as it might on a Allied soldier during WW2 being told he's awesome at enslaving Jews. Due to it's forced nature many students, myself included, see it as an enemy, a thing to be crushed and conquered. Which is not on for your culture, however hard to learn

[Lestat]

I agree with what has already been said in this thread, that it is not the language, but the way in which it is taught, that is the problem. I went to a Gaelscoil primary school, which I'm quite proud of in a way, so I have a bit of an advantage over a lot of people in my secondary school. But the standard of Irish a lot of people have going into the Leaving Cert is appalling. They dont even know the basic bog standard grammar rules of the language, as taught in French and German. What happens a lot of the time is, vocabulary is dished out in huge lists. Then, teachers write out essays, poem and novel evaluations to the kids, to learn off exactly as written. A lot of people have no idea what they're saying, or why they are saying it that way, but they just know the jist of these reams of sentances they have learned off. It is disgraceful. A huge reform of the way in which the syllabus is taught should be undertaken, both in primary and secondary education.

However, I dont believe that Irish should stop being taught. It is a huge part of our history and heritage, and there is a great body of literature written in Irish that, should it stopped being taught, would just disappear. It is actually quite a nice, lyrical, passionate, even beautiful language, despite the negative connotations associated with the ugly way in which people are taught it, which is often hard to get over.

While being an important part of our heritage, and believing strongly in its widespread education, I dont believe that it should hold such an important place in deciding people's college opportunities and career options as it does in todays Leaving Cert system. In my opinion, up to Junior Cert level, it should be mandatory, and, if you fail it in the Junior Cert, you should not be allowed progress to Leaving Cert level. But, to be honest its actually pretty hard to fail a Junior Cert exam.
At leaving cert level, I believe it should remain mandatory. However, I dont believe should you fail Irish, you should have to repeat the exam. It should be placed in equal importance with the choice subjects, despite being mandatory. Irish as a subject has to be treated in this unique way. To make it a choice subject would just mean that too many people would give it up, due to the stigma attached to learning it. As a language, it would virtually vanish. I believe it should remain mandatory, at least while a major reform of the syllabus is taken out, to get rid of the awful way in which it is taught. Once people no longer have a reason to hate it, it should eventually be made voluntary. At this stage hopefully, people would have just as much interest in learning it as any other language, perhaps more interest, as Irish would hit home in our own history unlike with other languages.

Just as a side note, one that non-Irish people might not know, there is a small population of people in Ireland, in the west Gaeltacht, who speak Irish as their first and sometimes only language. This is yet another reason not to get rid of the teaching of Irish, and alienate these people.

/long-winded post

[swarfegahead]

I'm really pleased to see the Irish language getting such serious recognition here!

@Lestat
Yeah, I agree the main problem with Irish is the way it's taught. Up until the beginning of 5th year all that was involved was learning passages and vocab off by heart, and then all of a sudden we're expected to be articulate enough with the language to be able to write full essays. It's unreasonable.

Going to a Gaelscoil would have been a huge advantage, but we start learning the language aroun the age of 4, yet dont really know how to use it properly until it's nearly too late. I think maybe if more emphasis was put on learning the basics of how the language works while the kids are still in primary school it might help make things easier when it comes to secondary.

[Lestat]

Exactly. You couldn't go to a school anywhere else in the world and expect to teach a second language purely by speaking at children, then making them learn off exact sentences in the language. It would be like teaching maths by showing someone every question that will be asked in an exam, then the last number answer to each question, without showing the equation used to get the answer. After a few years of this, when the time comes to learn maths for the big exam, you take away teaching kids what the asnwers are for the paper. You'd end up with schools full of kids that are utterly fucked for that subject, with two years to learn everything they should have known since the very beginning, the basics. It just wouldnt be acceptable at all. That is exactly what happens for Irish, and I dont see why it should be accepted for this subject, but not any others.

That example may not have made any sense, as it is a bit late. I'm also ranting a bit, but I think all the points I was trying to make have been made.

[Bar_Cek]

A little ranting is ok, I do it all the time :p
My teachers constantly say whenever we do poorly at said subject "Junior Infants could do better." THAT'S BECEASE THEY COULD. In J & S Infants, it's taught orally, which is great. They learn it easier. But then, in first class on, we're taught with sheets and books and all manner of written things, and soon it slips out of our heads. Somehow. In any case, it's bad.

[crab]

I think it still has a place (every time you learn a new language, you acquire a new soul; or more exoterically, each language gives you a new perspective on the world), but if it's really as uncommon as you say, perhaps it shouldn't be mandatory.

On the other hand, I know that walking through the streets of some Welsh towns, you still hear cymraeg a fair bit, so to generalise it, I guess it depends on the degree to which people would use it conversationally to determine if it should be mandatory; but surely it would be good for it to be optional.

[RobDonkey]

I know somebody who has to do Welsh for GCSE. Isn't that the sign of a language that is slipping away into redundancy?

[katt]

I think its great there are different languages and I would hate to see one become universal. But on the other hand I agree with those who have said forcing a language to be used when it is clearly declining in many ways is a bit much. Since Ireland, Wales and Scotland are so tied to England maybe it makes more sense to adopt english there (ie its not as odd for those places as it would be if other countries got rid of their native tongues).

on a related topic, so many people learn english that it would probably be more polite if the favor was returned more than it is... especially for people living/working/traveling for long periods in other countries

[Ambulan]

'<<'They do it in Norway succesfully. They have bokmål which most norwegians speak, but hey also have nynorsk which is tought in school and is the old norwegian spoken before they got invaded by danish people and then swedish people. I think they speak nynorsk up in the northern parts of norway but most norwegians dont speak it. Still everyone has to learn it in school and have big exams on it. Most signs in norway have both languages written on them(I think, the sign that tells you that you enter Norway both says Norge(bokmål) and Noreg(nynorsk). Anyway, some are happy with it while some hate it.
Finland is a bad example. They tried to keep swedish alive, but everyone hated it and now they wont teach it. Not that swedish is a near dead language as the gaeilge seems to be. Though I would think that teaching it and using it would be awsome!! I love languages. Thats what makes other countries so intresting. And I hate that when you come to other countries ar away from home the people are able to speak your language. Well, not everyone. Just the shop owners and resturant owners. "Kom ät här. Mycke gott!! Jättabilligt. Du vill äta här!" When I come to another country I dont want to be understood with my own language. I want to try and comunicate on their language. Even if I might get them laughing their arses off at my poor atempts.''>>

Hmm her har du nok drete på draget ja!
Vi fikk ikkje nynorsk [U]etter[U] danskene invaderte, det fikk man en god stund etterpå! Det språket vi hadde før vi fikk all inflytelsen fra danmark lignet mest på islendsk. Etter hvert ble det bare mer og mer dansk, og da danmark invaderte forsvann den helt og for godt! I slutten av unionen med Danmark begynte folket å bli lei av å snakke dansk, så en norsk kar som het for Ivar Åsen utviklet nynorsk! En del kjente norske forfattere som Henrik Ibsen støttet dette, og da unionen ble oppløst snakket de fleste i norge da Nynorsk!
Men SÅ kom jo selvfølgelig svartedauden og drepte de fleste nordmennene i norge, og da forsvann nesten all språkkunskaper fra gammelt av.
Bokmål ble oppfunnet, og flesteparten snakker og skriver det i dag.
Ah, og så har jeg jo glemt Riksmål og Høgnorsk, som er en mer konservativ skrivemåte enn bokmål og nynorsk, men det er jo bare så...
Så det så!

Uansett synes jeg dere burde ha den gaeilge språket i den Irske skolen!

CRAP! This was an english board... ah well. 'gonna translate it tomorrow then.....

[Feawen]

Ireland teaches ANY language awfully. The germans that came to our school for the leaving cert had near perfect english coming over, they could get by in a conversation no bother and were fluent from the two years here.

What have I learned from six years of french and 13 years of irish? FUCK ALL.

So then we go and blame it on Irish because it's compulsory. But did you not notice that french, german and spanish was just as badly taught?

Irish should still be compulsory. However it should be completely oral-based, other than a bit of homework in writing. The exams should be done orally. No poems, no novels. People can read whatever literature they feel like in their own time, it's completely useless for exams.

The only reason we hate our own language is because it's taught like the christian brothers used to teach anything back in the day, apart from the stick. My parents despised Irish (and Latin) because of the schooling. Still my mam used to talk a handful of Irish to me as a kid to try to help.

Stop blaming Irish, it's the teaching method.

[Bar_Cek]

That's a good point Feawen, I guess I was being a bit to angry. The sad thing is that the Education System moves as slowly as a Snail/Sloth hybrid moving through thick syrup, trying to piss off whoever told it to move by doing it as slowly as possible, all being watched in slowmo.

[Lestat]

That was partly the point I was trying to make. Nothing wrong with the subject, but its the way is taught. Don't agree with doing the whole exam orally though. You need to include study of novels and poems to make people appreciate the language and develop your understanding of it, and how it can be written well. It's the same with English as a subject, though, obviously, in a less detailed way. I do think that about 60 percent of the exam at least should be down to oral work though.

I wouldnt have gone so far as to say that all languages are taught badly though. I think it's mostly down the teachers rather than the curriculum in French and German, in my experience, though, that experience is pretty limited as I no longer do Leaving Cert French. Most of it really depends on the teachers, though, there does seem to a larger proportion of pretty crap teachers than good teachers around, if that is the case

And, just to point out to non-Irish people, it isnt a completely obsolete language really. Lately there's been what seem people thought was an Irish revival. We have our own Irish speaking television channel and radio channel, with nearly everything in Irish. Cartoons overdubbed in Irish (Spongebob as Gaeilge is a little surreal), popular tg4 (the name of the channel) home-made shows in Irish, like Paisean Faisean. We also have TG4 celebrities, or celebrities who started out doing shows entirely in Irish like Hector and the Seoige sisters. It is by no measure an obsolete language or one that is only spoken when being taught.

[yellowmongoose]

A similar debate about Welsh often pops up here (in Wales) from time to time. By the sounds of things the problem is how it's taught and the fact that it's compulsory when you are not going to use it later on in life.

I think that all 'old' languages (e.g Gaeilge, Welsh, Latin etc.) should be taught in Schools as an option instead of being compulsory. When they are compulsory it just breeds contempt for the language amongst most people learning it and actually may end up doing more harm than good. These languages are rarely spoken outside of their countries of origin and are not vital for the working world. Of course, if you want to work for someone like TG4 or S4C then you can take the option to study the language. This might actually produce a group who like speaking their native language and the enthusiasm from them may spread to others. This in turn might do a better job of keeping the language alive than taeching it as a compulsory subject.

I hope this is of some use in the debate.

[Feawen]

What I was saying about how they teach French and German is that barely any of us are at an almost fluent stage by the end, whereas the europeans teach languages very methodically and come over here fairly well able to speak English. It has to do with how we learn English ourselves too, our French teacher had to teach us what the subjunctive was and other such parts of language before we understood the syntax. That should've been done in English with us apparently.

[patch]

I like Irish, even though when I was at the Christian brothers it was a mandatory subject, and wasn't taught in a manner conducive to learning. I would love to be able to properly speak Irish, even though I can only mutter a few phrases. I agree with Feawen, that the way in which English is taught in this country leaves a lot to be desired, and if we are to teach any other languages, the way in which it is done must be improved greatly!

[Shalashaska]

Is ceapann me a bionn me an daoine amhain anseo a bionn ag caint gaeilge.

Theres probably something wrong there, but my point is.....something.
I like Irish. I'm not bad at it and my mothers a primary school teacher, which means she speaks fluent. Great for homework.

[Bar_Cek]

Well, I think this is the end. Anyone who comes across this forum and wants to have a say, PM me. Thank you all for your varied opinions. (not like it will stop me abolishing it one day) Bye bye :isay:!

[Qu1f]

Well one final comment before the curtains draw closed. It maybe a dieing launguage but it is usful in other ways even if thyey are trivial. For example in star wars and other sci fi films they got people speaking a different launguage while breathing in helium and then made it go backwards.

Also not all old launguages are dieing. In Wales the Welsh Launguage is flourishing now. Especially were i live anyway.

[Fee]

Damn I came too late, I hope it's ok if I throw in my two cent?
I think we do need a new curriculum for Irish, and that it is fading away which is a shame. Also with how most languages are being taught horribly, except I might add, Japanese. I am actually more able to speak Japanese than Irish at this point because it's actually interesting. Off with the poems and horrendous stories "as gaeilge".
Translate something interesting like a Harry Potter book, I saw it in the local bookshop, and well people would actually be interested in reading it... I once found a story by Terry Pratchett in Irish which I tried to read for an hour or so. If the course gets a complete over haul then yes I think it should be compulsory but at the current rate no, absolutely not.
(I'm in fifth year Honours Irish, gone are the days of match the boxes :()