I have discovered a loop hole in the Bible

[Rikco the Robot]

Okay, here goes. You know how God's laws tell us to try not to sin? Well, it is a sin to imagine yourself as perfect, ain't it? Every Christian says that it is human nature to sin, so by trying not to sin, you are trying to be perfect, meaning it is a sin to try not to sin. Seriously, tell me if this doesn't make sense.

[piemastermike]

[dismissive comment about how you've arrived at the party a bit late]

[RobDonkey]

Most of religion is contradiction.

[piemastermike]

well done, you deciphered my post.

[Rikco the Robot]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I believe in God and all, I just think the Bible sometimes stretches the truth a bit too much.

[Snoon]

I'm going to call my biblical studies lecturer right now and ask her why she didn't tell me any of this before. Outraged.

[piemastermike]

Rikco the Robot, you must think you are so smart right now. After all you made sense of the bible where no one else could.

[Rikco the Robot]

Er, no, I'm not really all that smart. Despite being a geek.

[skoo]

This thread is sinful.

[basstard]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I believe in God and all, I just think the Bible sometimes stretches the truth a bit too much.

The Bible : A bit like the Weapons of Mass Destruction dossier.

[bionic sheep]

Someone get God on the phone, he'll clear this up in no time.

[skoo]

Nah he stops work at 5 and tomorrow is Sunday. Bloody typical.

[GorillaBearBear]

Surely there is a difference between imagining yourself as perfect (which, I suppose, would end up as complacency) and striving to be perfect?

[RobDonkey]

Get God on his pager. He always has it on.

[by crikey!]

The Bible : A bit like the Weapons of Mass Destruction dossier.

there were no weapons.... does that mean there is no god?

[Mat^]

Anyone ever heard the one about disease being gods plan because he fucked us up when he made us and wanted to start over, therefore mass murderers are in heaven because they did their part and doctors are burrrrrniingggg.

[Norbington]

Anyone ever heard the one about disease being gods plan because he fucked us up when he made us and wanted to start over, therefore mass murderers are in heaven because they did their part and doctors are burrrrrniingggg.

That's a new one...

I still like the whole AIDs is a cure for THE GAY thing that some idiots still say on occasion.

[Nuclear Spoon]

Surely there is a difference between imagining yourself as perfect (which, I suppose, would end up as complacency) and striving to be perfect?

Striving to be perfect implies that you consider yourself capable of being perfect, I think.
Which is pretty much as bad?

[GorillaBearBear]

According to a lot of doctrines of faith (particularly the old fashioned ones) all humans are capable of perfection. The idea is that after original sin we are supposed to strive for perfection. Also, while imagining yourself as perfect shows pride and arrogance, striving to be perfect shows only humility and a desire to improve. Semantically, at least, as long as you strive fore perfection until death, and never switch from striving for perfection and thinking of yourself as perfect, you're pretty much covered.

[RobDonkey]

Aetheism is so much simpler.

[ray]

I would be more impressed if you found a fruit loop in the bible.

[Darkscull]

the whole point of a lot of christian things is attempting to do the best you can.
whether it works or not, whether anyone would ever know ('cept any possibly omnipotent people out there that is :p ), whether you slip every now and again (as long as you regret the slip and try hard not to do it again), it doesn't matter.

no one is capable of being perfect, or doing everything good, because not everything is under your control, and human nature makes sure that nothing is as simple as a choice of 'do good' or 'do bad', even if a situation with options like that appears.

some interpretations of christianity say that striving for perfection means trying to eliminate all the elements of your life that prevent it (so suppressing human nature, trying to control everything, stuff like that), hence monastries.
others take the view that you can't control everything, but if everyone tries their hardest than the world could be a better place, and so it's up to everyone to attempt to live the best life they can, whether or not that can be realised. (some within these try and force others to live the life that they dictate, to try and create a 'better world', but the majority see it as kind of defying the point to try and force people, since that's not behaving up to scratch, as it were).

so essentially... there is a difference between attaining perfection, perceiving perfection, and striving for it.

PS. post probably not worded very well, i kept getting distracted plus i'm not at peak health at the mo.

[Thomp]

I am God.

[Nuclear Spoon]

Thomp is shit.*

Thunderbolt me now, why don't you?

*This is on the assumption that you are, in fact, a God. I hold no contempt towards you otherwise.

[Socks]

Why not ask Jesus...of punk?

Whatever it is.

[Rook]

This thread = social suicide.

Well, maybe not. I guess there are worse things. While I refuse to be drawn on this, I will say that trying to be something =/= claiming you are something.

eg: "I want to be the fastest man alive" -> Fine, go build a rocket car.

"I am the fastest man alive" -> Rocket car mafia on your doorstep.

That is all.

[BlueIncaPilot]

you are trying to be perfect

I think it's more of trying to be a good person than trying to be perfect.

[Drattigan]

I have discovered a loop hole in YO' FACE.
OH, I WENT THERE.

[darkdevil62]

i know a better loop hole

if we are all gods children... wats so special about jesus

[terrorbite]

Okay, here goes. You know how God's laws tell us to try not to sin? Well, it is a sin to imagine yourself as perfect, ain't it? Every Christian says that it is human nature to sin, so by trying not to sin, you are trying to be perfect, meaning it is a sin to try not to sin. Seriously, tell me if this doesn't make sense.
Your whole argument fails because trying not to sin is not the same as trying to be perfect.

[ZekeyLizard]

i know a better loop hole

if we are all gods children... wats so special about jesus

How very edgy.

[Drattigan]

One thing that people need to realise about the Bible is that it was written by different people at different times, which means that not every last detail is going to link or make sense.

[Rikco the Robot]

i know a better loop hole

if we are all gods children... wats so special about jesus

There are three parts of God: God the Father, God the Holy Ghost, and God the Man. Jesus isn't really God's son; he's part of God himself.

[piemastermike]

or he would be if all this bible bollocks was real.


OH I'M BEING CONTROVERSIAL!

[Shalashaska]

Surely there is a difference between imagining yourself as perfect (which, I suppose, would end up as complacency) and striving to be perfect?

^This

And who cares?

[Magpie]

OMH GUYZ! I've found another loophole!

If this 'god' fellow is all powerful, then could he create a boulder so heavy even if he couldn't lift it?

Yeah, answer that you sheeple. You can't, can you?

[/ohmygoshsodamnedgyandcontroversial]

[Digga]

OMH GUYZ! I've found another loophole!

If this 'god' fellow is all powerful, then could he create a boulder so heavy even if he couldn't lift it?

Yeah, answer that you sheeple. You can't, can you?

[/ohmygoshsodamnedgyandcontroversial]

god IS the boulder.

aahahaha didnt think of THAT did you

[muffinmonkey]

I got a better one than all of you

If god is all knowing, he must know what will happen in the future
If he knows it will happen, he is powerless to prevent it

anyway, it is things like that that prove that The Bible and Christianity is a load of scrotum cakes and that the only true religion is Pastafarianism

all hail the flying spaghetti monster, may you all be blessed by his noodly appendage

[Rook]

If you could change the future, would you?

Example: you know, for a fact, that in the next week you'll have the best time of your life. Would you change it, just 'cause you knew it was going to happen? No. Because knowing about something isn't the same as living it.

@Digga, that sig has got to be the most emo thing I have ever seen. Congratulations.

[terrorbite]

@Digga, that sig has got to be the most emo thing I have ever seen. Congratulations.
He is emo :)

[natty dread]

emo + bible = christian rock

and these aren't really loopholes, just a bunch of contradictions in a silly collection of books.
i have read most of the bible out of pure boredom, i found it to be fairly inconclusive really, they should really write a sequel to clear the confusion up a bit.

[Rikco the Robot]

I think it was Percival Lowell's last words that were "I'm looking for a loophole" whilst reading the bible.

[natty dread]

I think it was Percival Lowell's last words that were "I'm looking for a loophole" whilst reading the bible.

first of all, for some reason i think Percival Lowell is an awesome name.
secondly, i need to come up with something witty to say as my last words.

i bet he was looking for a loophole cause he was a naughty sinner and didnt fancy going to hell.

[savotage]

I got a better one than all of you

If god is all knowing, he must know what will happen in the future
If he knows it will happen, he is powerless to prevent it

anyway, it is things like that that prove that The Bible and Christianity is a load of scrotum cakes and that the only true religion is Pastafarianism

all hail the flying spaghetti monster, may you all be blessed by his noodly appendage

I like the sound of that.

[Snoon]

doesn't like, god, like, totally transcend the realms of human comprehension?

[GorillaBearBear]

doesn't like, god, like, totally transcend the realms of human comprehension?

It's like watching Human Traffic all over again.

[CrazyQuasar]

i know a better loop hole
if we are all gods children... wats so special about jesus

Well, how about Jesus can bring people back from the dead, make 5 loaves and 2 fish feed a ridiculous 5000 people, and of course, he was born in a stable.

But he couldn't really do all that stuff, because it just doesn't happen like that. If breaking the laws of physics were that easy, I would already have telepathically put Zhyl to sleep, and used my telekinesis to put his hand in a bowl of water.

Urine is fun...

[darkdevil62]

thats bull crap that is sayin jesus has the power to manipulate anything on earth
and also if dying is part of gods greater plan then jesus was wrong to bring them back
so :P

[natty dread]

if dying is part of gods greater plan then jesus was wrong to bring them back so :P

everybody makes mistakes

[muffinmonkey]

What annoys me is when religious chappies get offended when I call their religion "scrotum cakes"

If I believed that the moon was made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese, you would not think twice about calling me a yoghurt and sending me to the padded place

but I you turned round and said I believed a huge superbeing created everything, ever, then no one can say anything about it


you can criticise Pastafarianism all you like
RAmen

:ultra:

[katt]

If I believed that the moon was made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese, you would not think twice about calling me a yoghurt and sending me to the padded place

but I you turned round and said I believed a huge superbeing created everything, ever, then no one can say anything about it




:ultra:

heh it is able to be proven beyond a doubt that the moon is not made of norwegian beaver cheese

however no one, and i mean no one, no matter how convinced they are that athiests are 100 right, can prove beyond a doubt that there is no god. so the belief in no god is no more reasonable than the belief in a god really

besides ....the religions being weird has less to do with belief in god and more to do with the quirks found in the old texts that contradict the other old quirks etc.

[terrorbite]

What annoys me is when religious chappies get offended when I call their religion "scrotum cakes"
I'm sure that's more to do with the fact it sounds incredibly childish...

[Gonk]

thats bull crap that is sayin jesus has the power to manipulate anything on earth
and also if dying is part of gods greater plan then jesus was wrong to bring them back
so :P

If you're meaning Lazarus, then Jesus may have raised lazarus from the dead, for one of 2 reasons:

1. It wasn't Lazarus' time to go back to God.

2. Mary, Martha, and Lazarus were close to Jesus, and losing Lazarus would be like losing a brother, though this reason wolud only work in conjunction with Reason 1

[weebl]

Okay, here goes. You know how God's laws tell us to try not to sin? Well, it is a sin to imagine yourself as perfect, ain't it? Every Christian says that it is human nature to sin, so by trying not to sin, you are trying to be perfect, meaning it is a sin to try not to sin. Seriously, tell me if this doesn't make sense.

By trying not to sin you are not imagining yourself to be perfect. You could never be perfect as you'd have sinned in the past even if you never sinned again. your logic is horribly flawed. Also I see no law in the bible that says imagining yourself to be perfect is a sin. If there is one I'd love to see you quote it.

also, wrong forum.

[Twatybollocks]

Hmm, seems like a cheese bin thread.

Anyway, to show how serious I take the OP's point I looked up loophole to find the exact definition:

"A tall, vertical slit in a wall for air, light, or shooting through"

How can this have anything to do with a contradiction you think you have found in the bible?

[natty dread]

Hmm, seems like a cheese bin thread.

Anyway, to show how serious I take the OP's point I looked up loophole to find the exact definition:

"A tall, vertical slit in a wall for air, light, or shooting through"

How can this have anything to do with a contradiction you think you have found in the bible?

god/jesus could have miraculously conjured one inside his bible, this then amazed him and he felt compelled to post about it on this forum, he then lost track of what he was posting about and the only other thing he associated with the bible was contradiction so he just posted about that instead.

[InstaCpu]

By trying not to sin you are not imagining yourself to be perfect. You could never be perfect as you'd have sinned in the past even if you never sinned again. your logic is horribly flawed. Also I see no law in the bible that says imagining yourself to be perfect is a sin. If there is one I'd love to see you quote it.

also, wrong forum.

Thank goodness for common sense. :)

What annoys me is when religious chappies get offended when I call their religion "scrotum cakes"

If I believed that the moon was made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese, you would not think twice about calling me a yoghurt and sending me to the padded place

but I you turned round and said I believed a huge superbeing created everything, ever, then no one can say anything about it


you can criticise Pastafarianism all you like
RAmen

:ultra:

I'm getting really fed up with this "look at me, I'm cool like Richard Dawkins cause I diss religion" trash. Of course one can criticise, and should, but it seems to be done for its own sake...and taken to using extreme examples. I'll have to look up the type of exaggerated comparison (IMO) you're using.

[Rook]

What annoys me is when religious chappies get offended when I call their religion "scrotum cakes"
I don't get offended, just mildly disappointed. I gather this is also what annoys most people about mormons; their seeming inability to get angry/annoyed about anything.

Also, what terrorbite said.

[Roxsie]

heh it is able to be proven beyond a doubt that the moon is not made of norwegian beaver cheese

however no one, and i mean no one, no matter how convinced they are that athiests are 100 right, can prove beyond a doubt that there is no god. so the belief in no god is no more reasonable than the belief in a god really

besides ....the religions being weird has less to do with belief in god and more to do with the quirks found in the old texts that contradict the other old quirks etc.

Prove god exists then. However that proof would deny faith (can anyone see where i'm going here?)...

[katt]

no one can prove god exists anymore than anyone can prove he does not exist. just because he doesn't make himself known is in no way conclusive that he does not exist.

I don't think proof of god would deny faith. Faith is simply a belief in god and the eventual salvation of humanity (in one way or another) without proof...

proof would verify faith

[muffinmonkey]

Prove god exists then. However that proof would deny faith (can anyone see where i'm going here?)...

Hurrah for another user of Douglas Adams arguments
I think that "belief that there is not a god" is marginally more plausible than belief that there is for one simple reason. We do not believe there are invisible dragons flying about the sky, we wouldn't know if they were there, so we could believe in them as much as a god. But we don't. The normal state of belief is none.
I'm sorry if my previous argument came across wrong, the use of the word scrotum-cakes seems to have caused more controversy than if I'd've just called everything you believe in bollocks. And I am not trying to be Richard Dawkins, just have an intelligent discussion.

[Lithium11]

I read this forum in passing and by chance and felt moved to make a comment. Religion discourages independant thought. I have no such crutch, I think and investigate and reason for myself. I was born into a Christian family, now I am an Atheist - I decided to remove my blindfold.

I feel that, although much of religion is innocent ignorance, it is hurting our children and ushering unmolested minds into belief systems created thousands of years ago for people thousands of years ago to live by. Back when we didn't know the world was created 4.6 billion years ago, back when man and woman were not equal, back when we needed to explain away with myths and traditional stories what we can explain with the scientific method.

Welcome to not having to wear those blindfolds anymore. Just because we have always been religious it does not mean we should continue to be, simply because it appeals to our desire to fear not the unknown. I look for the truth and the truth is inside me, not up in the sky or in some book edited by twenty or more people or in ancient scripture.

People have this habit of hanging on to what they know in order to preserve their sense of the self. Its like it'll kill them to take the blindfold off. We have to teach our children to believe but not to live the lie that is someone elses.

Believe what you want to believe, but believe it because you really feel you should. Believe it only after engaging some common sense and reasoning (of your own), not just because someone else has said so because someone told them... Or atleast be brave enough and human enough to try.

[noidtluom]

IMHO, all religious texts have been exaggerated over time due to faith and craving of popularity.

We should go back to the fundamental principles in which all religions originally conveyed:
Don't do anything which harms yourself, or harms other people.

Believe me, it works. Really well.
...if you follow it, which is really hard.

[katt]

I think that "belief that there is not a god" is marginally more plausible than belief that there is for one simple reason. We do not believe there are invisible dragons flying about the sky, we wouldn't know if they were there, so we could believe in them as much as a god. But we don't. The normal state of belief is none.
.

It is the norweigan beaver cheese all over again. well sort of. Take something extremely silly and try to suggest that someone who believes in god is just as silly.:rolleyes:

God is one theory behind how the universe was brought into being, how life was created and evolved etc. And it strikes me as being a whole lot more sensible than the 'oh it just happened completely randomly' line.

when you think about how big the universe is, how we have no idea exactly what it is, how the natural state goes towards disorder, and how ordered life on earth is then the idea of a creator seems a reasonble possibility. even if he does turn out to just be the great clockmaker.

[El Fisho]

Prove god exists then. However that proof would deny faith (can anyone see where i'm going here?)...

Babble fish, and then proving black is white and dying on a zebra crossing.

[muffinmonkey]

It is the norweigan beaver cheese all over again. well sort of. Take something extremely silly and try to suggest that someone who believes in god is just as silly.:rolleyes:

God is one theory behind how the universe was brought into being, how life was created and evolved etc. And it strikes me as being a whole lot more sensible than the 'oh it just happened completely randomly' line.

when you think about how big the universe is, how we have no idea exactly what it is, how the natural state goes towards disorder, and how ordered life on earth is then the idea of a creator seems a reasonble possibility. even if he does turn out to just be the great clockmaker.
well to me that belief is pretty silly
and surely that belief is as important as your belief

also, something I think seems to make religious types think is "Suppose the universe didn't randomly happen. How would we know?". There may be 100,000,000,000,000 etc universes where there were equal amounts of matter and antimatter just before the big bang, the big bang never happened, no planets ever formed, and we would have never been born, we wouldn't be floating in non-existance and thinking "Hmm, there really mustn't be a god" now would we.

And, for the record, the Norwegian Beaver Cheese argument was from the Late Supreme Douglas Adams which explains the somewhat... inventive details.

And you appear to be ignoring my actual point behind the argument

[katt]

also, something I think seems to make religious types think is "Suppose the universe didn't randomly happen. How would we know?". There may be 100,000,000,000,000 etc universes where there were equal amounts of matter and antimatter just before the big bang, the big bang never happened, no planets ever formed, and we would have never been born, we wouldn't be floating in non-existance and thinking "Hmm, there really mustn't be a god" now would we.

But that didn't happen. I am not sure how the argument that hypothetically the big bang might not have happened should make me sure there is no god. Besides I believe in a god who controls everything precisely. I think science is the human way of understanding the tip of the iceberg of his universe...and it makes people feel smug just to know that wee bit.


And, for the record, the Norwegian Beaver Cheese argument was from the Late Supreme Douglas Adams which explains the somewhat... inventive details.

I think Douglas Adams was great but I have to be honest and say that I think that was a pretty lame argument on his part. Maybe you missed some important details from it somewhere :P As I said earlier it has been proven the moon is not made of cheese but none of us still has a clue what the universe really is, if there is a reason why huamnity is stuck on earth etc etc.

a creator seems as reasonable as saying that it all just appeared one day. and neither way can be proven.


And you appear to be ignoring my actual point behind the argument

in my experience this is what people say when you do not agree with their points :)

[natty dread]

I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are details.

[muffinmonkey]

Ok, so Katt

Just answer the argument "There is no more evidence of God than of a whole list of stupid things such as invisible dragons"

[katt]

Ok, so Katt

Just answer the argument "There is no more evidence of God than of a whole list of stupid things such as invisible dragons"

i have already been through this with you

there is no reasonable cause to believe in invisible dragons.

However, people have no real explanation for what the universe is, how it came into being, what is outside it, and how life got started and evolved to its present complexity in a universe in which the trend is towards disorder (a law of thermodynamics).

therefore people do have some cause/reasons to believe in a god who created everything. it would explain a lot. and as i have been saying repeatedly, this makes more sense to me personally than saying 'uh it just kinda happened randomly'

even that line of thought opens up whole weird cans of worms just as the idea of there being a god does

[Ozzylator]

I long ago stopped trying to convince people that God probably doesn't exist.

However, I must take umbrage with Katt's notion that it's implausible that the universe can randomly pop into being, just because it's so incredibly unlikely. But nobody's counting the times it doesn't happen. Saying that it's impossible that the world randomly popped into existence because it's so incredibly unlikely can be compared to having won the lottery, then sitting in a room with other lottery winners, saying "None of us have just won the lottery, as winning the lottery is so unlikely."

[katt]

i think it is hard to get a good grasp on the odds of the universe popping into being without knowing anything about what was there before it popped into being :P

we don't even know if universes popping into being is unlikely in the first place. maybe somewhere there is a whole factory of them being popped out constantly. we would not have the foggiest idea even if it were true.

i dont think it is accurate to make a comparison to a lottery system because we know everything about why the odds are stacked like they are in a lottery whereas we know nothing about how the odds might be stacked for universe formation

[MeatwagonAction]

the Bible sometimes stretches the truth a bit too much.

Ya think? :eek:

[woody_tng]

Gotta love the bible. Greatest work of fiction ever.

[Urlosenged]

I have a theory about how the universe was formed: it was sneezed out of the nose of a really, really, really, really big dragon. There's just as much proof for that as anything else, so that makes it a valid theory. Or so goes your argument. And if your god controls the entire world, why do bad things happen to good people? Why can smokers live to be 80 and health freaks die of a heart attack at 35? Why can lying, cheating businessmen amass huge fortunes when good, honest people starve to death? Doesn't sound like a very nice god to me. And don't you dare use the "we can't possibly comprehend his reasoning, since he is above human comprehension" line, since that is such a cop out.

[woody_tng]

I have a theory about how the universe was formed: it was sneezed out of the nose of a really, really, really, really big dragon.

Do you fear the time known as "The coming of the great white hankerchief"?

[Urlosenged]

Yes, I live in perpetual fear of that day.

[katt]

I have a theory about how the universe was formed: it was sneezed out of the nose of a really, really, really, really big dragon. There's just as much proof for that as anything else, so that makes it a valid theory. Or so goes your argument.

Without any proof saying 'it just came into being like a poof of magic out of nowhere created by no one like the odds of a lottery winner zomgs' isn't much more sophisticated than saying it was sneezed out of the nose of a dragon.

athiests can have a false sense of superiority of their beliefs JUST like people who believe in god can. and i find they are often more mocking and think they are oh so smart about it. which is silly cause none of you have any better of an idea than anyone else

I think whatever theory makes you happy go with it.

And if your god controls the entire world, why do bad things happen to good people? Why can smokers live to be 80 and health freaks die of a heart attack at 35? Why can lying, cheating businessmen amass huge fortunes when good, honest people starve to death? Doesn't sound like a very nice god to me. And don't you dare use the "we can't possibly comprehend his reasoning, since he is above human comprehension" line, since that is such a cop out.

dunno. maybe he is just the great clockmaker... I think he is a good god though personally

[woody_tng]

athiests can have a false sense of superiority of their beliefs JUST like people who believe in god can. and i find they are often more mocking and think they are oh so smart about it. which is silly cause none of you have any better of an idea than anyone else

I just wish to make a point here. I personaly am not an athiest. I belive that there must be some form of god. That may be a higher being, or a force of some kind. I do not believe in religion. I think that to many wars have been fought, either in the name of god, or just to prove who's god is better. The ideals in these religions are often just and good. If only the flock actualy practiced what they preached.

Sorry about that, but I am in one of those moods tonight.

[katt]

wouldnt it be awful if the sneezed out of the nose of a dragon theory ended up being correct by an odd coincidence . heh.

if there is an afterlife in which something that awful is revealed i hope heaven/whatever has a wine cellar

[woody_tng]

Wine. Nay. I wish to quaff a few ales.
:D

[J E S S I E emo]

Weee people who realize that the bible is crap :D

Another loop whole is that God made everything, and if god were to make
everything there would have to be nothing. So if there was nothing there
was no god, and if there was no god, then something else had to of
made god, OR god didnt make shit and someone made it up?

I think the government made certain religions to keep people from
doing crimes.

Ooo i got another.

It's a sin to be born right?

Well if your a homosexual your living a lifestyle of sin,
BUT if you were born in sin then your always living a life
style of sin, and the whole trying to be perfect thing.

Oh, and its a sin to tell someone thet they are going
to hell, because thats playing god, which is a sin,
and at churches the pastors and priests will tell you
that you are going to hell, if you arent a christian or cathlic or jew
or blah blah blah.

So there for they are sinning.

I think buddism is the only one that makes sence.

they dont give you heaven or hell, they just tell
you to rid your self of everyday trouble and stuff,
and your good to go.

[weebl]

this thread is awful. some of the posts are just plain retarded. are you actually thinking through what you type? I shall close this thread as it embarassing to me how poor it's turn out.