Bnp: What to do?

[Sewer Side Cafe]

Personally, i've spent a fair amount of time campaigning against the buggers. But what do you think? should a party like this be allowed to exist nowadays? BTW please don't comment if you have no interest. Or at least read everything first.

[Splush]

Of course they should be allowed to exist, and if people agree with them they should be allowed to vote for them. It's admirable that you campaign against them though, that's the sort of thing I would do if I was less lazy and had more politically-literate friends. People do need to be educated about them, I've heard more than one person say things like "well I'm not into the racism stuff, but they have really good policies on education" and those people could probably do with a figurative slap in the face.

I think they might have a role to play in informing the policies of the more mainstream parties. Like if the Conservatives see the rise of the BNP they will realise that immigration is an issue that a lot of people are angry about (as if anybody doesn't know that already) and they will change their policies (or at least the presentation of their policies) to capitalise on that and steal those votes. Not that I'm going to be voting for either any time soon, but it's just a thought about why extreme parties could have a useful function in informing the mainstream parties.

[Sewer Side Cafe]

I think it's ridiculous that everyone has forgotten so quickly that the BNP is derived from parts of National Front. Literally, they're really only one step away from jack boots and skin heads. And where does everyone always get the "i agree with some of their policies" stuff from? I've never seen any policies in any of their propoganda. The closest thing i saw to a policy was "ban trade unions"

[El Fisho]

They attempt to market themselves as a mainstream party with credible opinions, but a moments inspection reveals that they are quite clearly not (i.e. councilors have been deselected for saying that a mixed race baby was not a bad thing). And people should be educated on who they actually are, particularly young voters who don't remember the national front.

The rise in support for the BNP is however partly to blame on mainstream politics. The two major parties offer so little choice between them, and the electoral system offers so little choice that people are bound become disillusioned and look for something radically different. Of course this does not justify their ignorance in choosing to support the BNP, but mainstream politics must share some responsibility.

[Sewer Side Cafe]

True, True.
But i'm only 17, i can't even vote yet and i know who the National Front are. I know that this is just because i'm into polotics but, whatever.
And, however much i hate the facsist pigs, i do admire their marketting skills. To put on a suit and regurgitate the opinions of the sun, was all it took to become popular. Hell, Bin Laden could do that!

[Splush]

I saw a great interview on TV years ago with somebody from the BNP. He told the Scottish Indian interviewer that they weren't a racist organisation, and simply thought people should go back to 'where they come from', and that the BNP will even pay for their transport 'home'. Then the interviewer asked what would happen to his nephew (IIRC) who had a white Scottish mother and an Indian father and the BNP representative literally didn't have an answer for that situation, like it had never occurred to him that that circumstance might arise.

Not entirely relevant to the thread but I just thought it was a funny story and a good example of how fundamentally weak BNP ideas are.

The rise in support for the BNP is however partly to blame on mainstream politics. The two major parties offer so little choice between them, and the electoral system offers so little choice that people are bound become disillusioned and look for something radically different. Of course this does not justify their ignorance in choosing to support the BNP, but mainstream politics must share some responsibility.
I suppose this is kind of what I was getting at in talking about extreme parties' roles in informing the mainstream parties. If the BNP continues to gain power it'll surely result in the mainstream parties defining their positions less vaguely and that can only be a good thing, so that's a silver lining of sorts. Maybe I'm just naively optimistic but I don't feel like most of the people voting for the BNP really agree with their key policies, they're just angry because they feel like no mainstream party is representing them, and once the mainstream parties respond to this the problem will fix itself.

[Darkscull]

Hell, Bin Laden could do that!

only if he did a michael jackson and invested in some bleach.


I abhor the BNP and everything they stand for.

however I think they should be allowed to exist as a political party.

To ban a party because of what they believe in and who they're associated with is the short-term, easy, and lazy way out and should never be done in my opinion (except for things like be funded by organised crime or something).

rather, they should be punished for things that they do. for example, if a member of the bnp goes on TV spouting racist filth, then they are dealt with like anyone else doing it. If it's as part of an official party broadcast or something, then the party should be reprimanded or whatever happens when parties cross the line in such things.

I don't think i've explained that very well, but hopefully people will know what i mean.

another example of a similar thing:

the IRA was (is?) an organisation that i don't respect in the slightest (there are various IRAs, you know which sort i mean, hopefully), and think of in much the same way as the national front (although less so, since they have their reasons). Sinn fein is (was?) widely regarded as being the political front of the IRA, but I think that they should be treated just like other political parties.


anyway, i agree that more education is needed. If they can say things to people, so can we. it's a war for people hearts and minds (where have i heard that before?), and our side is the more logical than far. hopefully that will be enough to beat the prejudice that most people feel.

I applaud you, Sewer Side Café, for your wanting to do things about the problem.
however...

I don't think that protesting against the BNP as an organisation is the best approach. in fact, I think it kind of does the opposite of what you want it to.

when people march not against peoples ideas or racism in general, but against a particular group or organisation, then it makes it so easy for the targets to turn and say: "look: the PC brigade have seen us and are afraid of the truth, they want to stifle our voices so that you remain suppressed" or something similar.

education is definitely the key, and marching against racism and racist ideas. because it's easy to show how racist ideas are stupid and evil if you explain them from first principles, but when you attack something specific that someone has said, or the person that said it, it's much easier for them to defend.

[doctor_fruitbat]

when people march not against peoples ideas or racism in general, but against a particular group or organisation, then it makes it so easy for the targets to turn and say: "look: the PC brigade have seen us and are afraid of the truth, they want to stifle our voices so that you remain suppressed" or something similar.

education is definitely the key, and marching against racism and racist ideas. because it's easy to show how racist ideas are stupid and evil if you explain them from first principles, but when you attack something specific that someone has said, or the person that said it, it's much easier for them to defend.
I see what you mean, but what the BNP says is related to a particular ideology, and such a prominent organisation that represents a very extreme viewpoint is the perfect target for attacking an ideology; just because they're going to use crap arguments about the PC brigade isn't a reason to stop; rather, it fuels the argument that they haven't thought through their ideas and don't have a clue what they're talking about. You don't even need to address such vague points directly; the fact that they're so vague is proof of their ignorance.

[Gabber-Baby]

Heh, well im definitley for alot of their views to be honest.

- Pensioners before asylum seekers
- Economy, British workers first
- Democracy

The BNP say that in 60 years time, the british people will be an ethnic minority in our own country and lets be honest, we can see that happening already. It annoys me when people label them as nothing but rascist pigs, they're not really.

Yeah, some of their views may be a bit dodgy but they're trying to keep Britain, Britain

I think most people already know my views on immigrants and asylum seekers but hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion :rolleyes:

The BNP are getting more votes every year, i think they need to be given a chance to really express their views. Just like what's his face Abdulla Muhammid or whatever his name is who starting preaching in the middle of london about how everyone should convert to islam and why, he got his say so i think others should get to have theirs.

If BNP prove to really be that unpopular then so be it, but i truly think they might stand a chance. People are too scared to stand up for what they really want to say these days.

[Darkscull]

it fuels the argument that they haven't thought through their ideas and don't have a clue what they're talking about. You don't even need to address such vague points directly; the fact that they're so vague is proof of their ignorance.

that would work fine if you were trying to show them up as the base racists they are to rational, more politically-minded people.

but the problem with people believing their crap in the first place is that they don't think aren't rational about the matter, or politically-minded.

the BNP relies mainly on support from the more deprived areas of the country, where people tend to be less educated, and where employment and money is scarce. when the BNP comes and says that the problems those people are facing are due to immigrants, and point to a working immigrant as 'proof', or that the government and PC brigade don't care about them for some reason or other, they believe it, because it makes vague sense on the surface if you don't understand the actual reasons.
the people who believe it don't need to think it through, because they feel that it's right. I've never understood it, but some people cling to anything that suggests that all their problems are caused by some simple thing (or a big complex conspiracy, but that boils down to simply 'they' caused it), and that whatever they do within the system couldn't solve it, because it can't be solved within the system.
any argument that you, as part of 'the system', or at least someone who they see as benefiting from the system, makes against someone for saying such things just promotes those ideas, and they won't listen.

so these people need to be shown that the things the BNP say are fundamentally wrong. not that the party is inept and doesn't have any real policies, because that leaves the actual issue untouched.

if you get someone to actually listen, it's easy to persuade them that racism and its proxy ideas are just stupid. it's getting them to listen that's the problem.

[Roachy]

Racists. Total racists. Any party that distributes CDs that subliminally promote white supremacy outside schools do not deserve to be in politics. Grooming children to vote BNP and hate foreigners is wrong in my eyes.

I've spent a fair amount of time campaigning against the buggers too. I'm part of the Love Music, Hate Racism Campaign at the moment and one if its aims is to stop the BNP from trying to drive out foreign people.

British Nazi Party.

[Sewer Side Cafe]

Heh, well im definitley for alot of their views to be honest.

- Pensioners before asylum seekers
- Economy, British workers first
- Democracy

The BNP say that in 60 years time, the british people will be an ethnic minority in our own country and lets be honest, we can see that happening already. It annoys me when people label them as nothing but rascist pigs, they're not really.

Yeah, some of their views may be a bit dodgy but they're trying to keep Britain, Britain

I think most people already know my views on immigrants and asylum seekers but hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion :rolleyes:

The BNP are getting more votes every year, i think they need to be given a chance to really express their views. Just like what's his face Abdulla Muhammid or whatever his name is who starting preaching in the middle of london about how everyone should convert to islam and why, he got his say so i think others should get to have theirs.

If BNP prove to really be that unpopular then so be it, but i truly think they might stand a chance. People are too scared to stand up for what they really want to say these days.



WTF? I have some advice for you my friend, look up the BNP in Wikipedia. Read the whole thing. Then, look up Nick Griffin and read the whole thing. then tell me you agree with them. If you still agree, then, what the hell you're entitled to it. But i don't want you to say that to another person until you've thouroughly read up on the BNP.

[Gabber-Baby]

Immigrants ARE taking our jobs, my family has experienced it! My dad is a carpenter and has been for the past 35 years. He has lost many, many jobs where he has quoted a decent and honest price but has lost out on £3000 because a polish immigrant has offered to do it for half the price.

Same as my boyfriend's dad who is an upholsterer, he is constantly losing jobs in london because they're are so many romanians, polish, czech's etc coming over here offering to the job for pittence! Im getting really irate because people are too blind to see the fact that people who have worked extremely hard to become qualified in a particular trade and who have families to support are being pushed aside.

Pfft, and i have some advice for you my friend, dont tell me what can i cant say to people. Im entitled to my own views, if i wanna go round shouting "YEAH FUCKING WHITE SUPREMACY!!!!" then i will. But not once have i said that im all for the BNP. I agree with some of their views, is that ok? :rolleyes:

[Roachy]

To be honest, that is not TAKING a job at all. Nobody has their job TAKEN from them by immigrants.

I find that a lot of people who say that immigrants are "Taking our jobs", which is the most absurdly cliche statement ever, are not actually as well qualified as those immigrants. If you can't be arsed to get off your back and achieve as well as someone from a foreign country will, you can't really complain.

As for them offering a cheaper price, what do you expect? If you saw two carpenters who offered to do the same job for you but one was cheaper, you'd choose the cheaper one.

[Sewer Side Cafe]

You never mentioned that in the previous post... That's a fairly strong case. But, it doesn't mean that the BNP are right. They're fools.
Although i'm a big lefty, i agree that immagration rules should be changed, or work permit stuff should change. Or something like that! I understand that there's a problem, but the policies the BNP spout are too much. Seriously though, do the reading. it's worth it.

Also, it's not the nationality of the workers that's the issue in your problem, it's the system that allows them to undercut people like that. i think that there should be some kind of guild set up, that stops those kinds of tactics.


Pfft, and i have some advice for you my friend, dont tell me what can i cant say to people. Im entitled to my own views, if i wanna go round shouting "YEAH FUCKING WHITE SUPREMACY!!!!" then i will. But not once have i said that im all for the BNP. I agree with some of their views, is that ok? :rolleyes:

I didn't mean you can't say what you want, i just don't want you to make a fool of your self without doing the research to back up your views.

[Gabber-Baby]

To be honest, that is not TAKING a job at all. Nobody has their job TAKEN from them by immigrants.

I find that a lot of people who say that immigrants are "Taking our jobs", which is the most absurdly cliche statement ever, are not actually as well qualified as those immigrants. If you can't be arsed to get off your back and achieve as well as someone from a foreign country will, you can't really complain.

As for them offering a cheaper price, what do you expect? If you saw two carpenters who offered to do the same job for you but one was cheaper, you'd choose the cheaper one.

Its not down to qualifications at all. People are so naive its untrue. My boyfriend worked as a home cinema installer and worked on site with a polish guy.

My boyfriend asked him how he got into installing high end cinemas, the polish bloke replied "I worked in a coffee shop and the man i served owned an installation company." He knew nothing about home cinema installtion at all, in fact he fucked the job up which my boyfriend then had to fix. So its got nothing to do with qualifications.

In fact, my boyfriend has just told me that his dad is now being hired to fix work that he quoted for in the first place, that a european worker has fucked up basically. People only go with the foreign workers because they're cheaper yeah. Exactly what im saying. Its not fair.

[Cjw]

Any good views the BNP might have gets undercut by the fact that they oppose interracial marriage. I can't even see how anyone could justify something like that without descending into bigotry.

[Broche]

But it's not the foriegn workers who are at fault surely. Isn't it the fact that people exploit them, make them work for next to nothing, that the problem is?

I'm completely opposed to the BNP, I can't think of anything with any merit they have said.

[Scrumpopolis]

I think the best way to fight the BNP is with information. Show people the information about the party, don't just stand there and shout "The BNP is bad" which is what most protesters seem to do.

The students who managed to stop the BNP speaking at Oxford should be utterly ashamed of themselves. They played right into the BNP's hands with that one. Instead of there being a debate in which the BNP would have been ripped to shreds and made to look like the knuckle dragging bufoons they are by one of the best debating times in the country, there was a farce in which they were refused to be allowed their freedom of speech by the "loony left" making what can be best described as martyrs out of them.

Remeber, like any exterme fringe group, left or right, their supporters are far louder than theer actual numbers suggest. They only received 1.5% of the popular vote at the last general election and no matter how many headlines they make they are not gaining much more support.

[gembird]

I would fucking love it if they got the BNP to speak at my uni. It wouldn't get stopped because everyone here is so apathetic about politics- and the few that aren't are all really into proper debating and know how to back up their point of view with real evidence.

I don't agree with their policies myself, but I can see where it comes from. I mean, I laugh at the Pub Landlord on telly, but I know people who really do have similar views to that character. Yes, I know it's a long way away from being a fascist or whatever, but there is a spectrum of political opinion and the BNP are on that side of it, albeit a long way away. There's bound to be people who hear a little bit and think they're not too bad- and that's understandable, because not everyone is a total leftie like myself :p

[killsteel]

Its not down to qualifications at all. People are so naive its untrue. My boyfriend worked as a home cinema installer and worked on site with a polish guy.

My boyfriend asked him how he got into installing high end cinemas, the polish bloke replied "I worked in a coffee shop and the man i served owned an installation company." He knew nothing about home cinema installtion at all, in fact he fucked the job up which my boyfriend then had to fix. So its got nothing to do with qualifications.

In fact, my boyfriend has just told me that his dad is now being hired to fix work that he quoted for in the first place, that a european worker has fucked up basically. People only go with the foreign workers because they're cheaper yeah. Exactly what im saying. Its not fair.

So basically you're saying that you want to keep prices artificially high by putting greater barriers on travel. You want to prevent legitimate business deals simply because your boyfriend's dad is not prepared to 'stoop down to their level' and offer to do the work for the same price. You can't talk about quality because by your own statements you have indicated that people would prefer a crappy job for half the price. If that's what people want, why should they be forced to buy something they may not be able to afford? If Europeans are happy to get half the wages your boyfriend's father earns, why can't he do the same? What makes him any better that he should be given preferential treatment?

Would you want to ban all cheap imports, because the British manufacturers would then be forced to listen to the demands of their customers more? This is essentially the same argument as the one you're making. I'm glad, however, that you chose to say this up-front, and admit your real reasons for supporting them.

Let's face it, the BNP draws its supporters from the greedy, the racist and the ignorant. Non-whites are not allowed to stand for candidacy. This is a party that opposes racial interbreeding. This is a party that statistically contains the highest percentage of criminals, and that's violent criminals convicted for racially-aggravated assault. This is a party that has been exposed as having sympathies towards Adolf Hitler and the National Socialists.

Would you want somebody who opposes allowing black people into politics as your Prime Minister? Would you want somebody who opposes multi-ethnic partnerships as your Prime Minister? Would you want somebody convicted of beating up a member of a minority group as your Prime Minister? Would you want somebody who idolizes Hitler as your Prime Minister? If not, then don't even consider supporting the BNP. For all our sakes.

[doctor_fruitbat]

Gabber-Baby, the simple fact is that there are plenty of incompetent white, British-born people doing jobs they aren't suited for. The problem is with the system, not the people. While I appreciate that you don't want decent workers having things fucked up by incompetents, blaming it on immigrants just because the few examples you have encountered centre around foreigners is only playing into the - extremely misguided - hands of the BNP.

The correct policy is dealing with those who make things worse for others - the BNP approach is to make things better for 'British' people at the expense of the 'non-British' regardless of competence and worth or even considering what 'Britishness' actually is beyond their own narrow, outdated view of it. They don't even say these things because it's an actual problem - they say it because they irrationally hate all non-white people. And doing the right thing for the wrong reason (not that I'm agreeing with the BNP on anything here) is no better than doing the wrong thing, because the end result is still grounded in ignorance and bigotry and will probably rebound in highly undesirable ways if they get a chance to.

[Gabber-Baby]

The only things i agree with regarding the BNP is their view on immigrants to be honest.

The stuff about not letting black people into politics is obsurd and i dont agree with that at all.

But putting pensioners before bloody asylum seekers is a good idea, there are so many british people put aside so the government can give houses to people who have been in the country for 5 minutes, who have no money at all to support themselves and cant speak a word of english, how is that fair on people who have been waiting to be homed for years? Its not! Ive said this before but Britain really needs to sort it out, we need to become more like America and Austrailia - you're only allowed into the country if you have money to support yourself and if you have a legitimate trade. It makes sense! Am i the only one who thinks like that? I must be.

As for the job argument, it just makes me angry when people who have worked hard for 30 years lose out on getting jobs because other people who often have no idea what they're doing are offering to do it for stupid prices.

To be honest, im not sure there's anyone in Crawley who are for the immigration policies in Britain. The goverment keep saying they're going to "knuckle down" on immigration but they're still thousands coming over. There was a riot recently in our town where a load of people got together making a protest about immigrants and how we should help them, unsurprisingly, 90% of the protesters were polish/romanian and unsurprisingly they got hurled abuse at and told to fuck off and how dare they start protesting that we should help them more. The police stopped the protest and they walked off not getting anywhere with their protest. They're unpopular and all the reasons ive mentioned.

What about that homing thing that they're thinking of making for all the romanian criminals to stay at? So we get a load of romanian scumbags coming over to england to be realeased and start trouble over here? Yeah, great idea...

[Turkey Sandwich]

The BNP's 'sensible policies' are the thin end of the wedge. What starts as 'Britain for the British' translates in practice to 'Britain for WASPs, and anyone else gets either deported or repeatedly beaten up'. Besides, there are plenty of other parties with policies against large-scale immigration, so I'll never understand why people consider voting for the BNP because of those. Added to which, the current government is, I believe, considering imposing a points system for immigrants similar to that of Australia; I don't know whether that covers the EU or not, but I assume so, and either way it would still help slow the influx.

Also, as for stopping foreign workers coming here - that'd be bad for the economy. It might affect people adversely in the short term who aren't getting jobs, but they wouldn't be happy if prices went up and you couldn't pay for anything anyway. Stopping foreign workers coming here is akin to putting a tariff on immigration, and tariffs just don't work. In any case, there are already far more skilled workers like Doctors and nurses, who we actually need coming here, something which I think people like to ignore. Another thing people like to say is that Britain is the 'soft-touch of Europe', when it comes to asylum seekers - which is odd, since we take in fewer than France, Germany, and pretty much all of the similar-sized EU members.

Incidentally, I'm not directing this to anyone here in particular, it's just something I'd like to inject into the debate as that seems to be the main, very flawed, draw of the BNP. As I said, the most important thing is the fact that they won't just cap immigration, they'll chuck people out who've lived here all their lives.

Having said that, I wholeheartedly support their right to exist, as it would make us just as bad as they are to deny freedom of speech. I think the Oxford Union have got the right idea, and I it's very intellectually childish of people to resign their membership because the society are doing their job. 'I disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it' and all that.

[faragher]

But putting pensioners before bloody asylum seekers is a good idea, there are so many british people put aside so the government can give houses to people who have been in the country for 5 minutes, who have no money at all to support themselves and cant speak a word of english, how is that fair on people who have been waiting to be homed for years? Its not! Ive said this before but Britain really needs to sort it out, we need to become more like America and Austrailia - you're only allowed into the country if you have money to support yourself and if you have a legitimate trade. It makes sense! Am i the only one who thinks like that? I must be.

As for the job argument, it just makes me angry when people who have worked hard for 30 years lose out on getting jobs because other people who often have no idea what they're doing are offering to do it for stupid prices.
Couple of quick points, even though this debate is not really about this:
- Asylum seekers / Immigrants do not get put above others on housing lists because they are asylum seekers - all housing places are dished out on the basis of need. There are not pensioners living on the streets because "them damn immigrants" have taken their houses.
- Asylum seekers are different to immigrants. A genuine asylum seeker has come here because they are at threat in their homeland. If you think we shouldn't be helping a person whose life is at risk, then you have no humanity.
- The only place that immigrants can come from without a reason is Europe - if you are from outside the EU, then you will struggle to get a permit to reside without a really good reason. We are members of the EU, and this means that we can travel, reside and work anywhere in the EUwithout having to get a visa. Likewise anyone from the EU can do the same. Virtually none of the recent wave of Polish immigrants are claiming any kind of benefits, if anything they are adding to the economy by working hard and paying taxes.
- This country would not operate without immigrants - the NHS, hospitality sector, building trades and pretty much any industry that still insists on paying the minimum wage only gets by because of immigrant labour. I'm sorry for your dad, but that is the nature of the free market economy - if he is really struggling, perhaps he should move to where the work is - you can't get a decent carpenter in pretty much the whole of North London, polish immigrants or not...

Back on topic. I loathe the BNP and all they stand for, but I know that they have to exist. We need them where we can see them and we need to be reminded daily why hatred and bigotry are so dangerous.

[doctor_fruitbat]

The only things i agree with regarding the BNP is their view on immigrants to be honest.

The stuff about not letting black people into politics is obsurd and i dont agree with that at all.
This is what I'm talking about. The BNP don't base their immigration policies on what is economically best for Britain, or indeed socially best from the viewpoint of most British citizens. They base it on a fearful hatred of everything outside an extremely narrow viewpoint, and even if some good points come out of it, it starts having adverse effects such as trying to stop black people getting into politics. In accordance with Godwin's law, I shall reference the Nazis as an excellent example of what happen when you vote a bunch of screaming, maniacal fascists into power.

[Smokey]

Immigration is a good thing, wihout it there'd be a shortage of doctors and nurses. Plus without immigrants from the Carribean after the world wars there would have been no-one to sweep the streets and drive the buses. Most immigrants now are doing the menial jobs, such as picking fruit, where few people want to do it and if employers kept to minimum wage laws then thee would be no undercutting. The problem isn't with people willing to work for a pittance, it's with people breaking the law and paying them nothing.

Immigration improves a scoiety by blending cultures together, evolving it into something new. The problem is with bigots who can't accept the fact that their new neighbours worship a different god, speak another language or have a different coloured skin. Without it you wouldn't be able to go out for a curry, a chow-mein or a pizza.

On the topic of the BNP, they should be allowed to exist because this is a democracy. They can say what they want and if people want to vote for them, they can. However, whenever the BNP cross the line into insighting hatred then they should be punished justly.

[Darkscull]

In accordance with Godwin's law, I shall reference the Nazis as an excellent example of what happen when you vote a bunch of screaming, maniacal fascists into power.

since godwin has already been invoked, i shall go more in depth into this.

after all, i've been trying to make the point that it's better to explain why such things are bad and how rather than "they're fascists, like nazis, you don't want nazis do you?"

the nazis got into power because they managed to persuade people that they would do something about the depression and unemployment and everything. they did this not by detailed economic and social policies, but rather by convincing people (who didn't need much convincing, since people always like ideas like this, as i've said before) that all the problems are the fault of A. the other powers who enforced the treaty of versailles, and B. various scapegoats (mainly jews, obviously, but also gypsies and such).

the BNP does pretty much the same thing, except that they don't have as wide appeal because less people are affected by the problems that they've latched onto.

assuming everybody knows what happened after the nazis got into power, you should see straight away how such seemingly rational (to some) and innocent (to some) ideas can, and do, lead further, and the varying excuses given for hating x, y and z aren't always valid, and are just, well, excuses.

now some people see the similarities, but decide that the BNP won't be like that, and that they're genuine in their concern, and their hatred of various groups really is because of problems they've actually caused.

for those people I would ask them why they think the BNP are different, and how they reconcile the fact that even though they have excuses for hating new immigrants (although not very good ones), they don't have any (or at least, have different ones) for hating past immigrants, or at least, some past immigrants (those of differing ethnicities).

there are too many coincidences that make their amalgamation of various ideas pretty much exactly like racism. it could be that they truly believe their various excuses, and that they do all just happen to fit together to make a whole that mimics racism.

however, how likely do people think that is? it seems to me that you'd have to want an excuse for some hatred or other very badly in order to swallow that crap.

[Gabber-Baby]

Housing is getting low though, we cant afford to let anymore immigrants into the country. My brother and his fiance had a baby a month ago and have been on the waiting list to get a bigger house for months, their new born child has had to sleep in moses style basket at the end of their bed because they have been waiting for so long to find a house, but the council couldnt find one because there's not enough housing to go around!

Yeah and some people are gonna say "Well so what, people in europe are living in near enough poverty and squaller so they should come first"...which i can see their point but I just dont see how people can keep so calm over it. Maybe its just me but in Crawley, we're swamped with europeans who cant speak a word of english and will actually barge you on the street and dont have any respect. Just the other night there were 4 polish girls standing outside my house on the street at 2am screaming songs at the top of their lungs, i shouted out my window and told him to shut the fuck up. Im just biased i suppose, same as the whole gypsie/traveller/cantcallthempikeyscosimaracist issue.

When the BNP start doing riots and protests screaming "HEIL HITLER! WHITE SUPREMACY!" Then ill start worrying.

[Disgruntledgoat]

I do not agree with anything the BNP has to say, and I can never see myself voting for them in any capacity. However, I respect their right to stand as a political party. Because democracy cuts two ways.

In other countries I believe, there are similar problems. For example (correct me if I am wrong) there's a political party in the Netherlands that is basically made up of paedophiles who which to completely abolish the age of consent (which is already 12? or 13?) over there.

This is legal because of the freedom of political expression that democracy invokes. I believe that the only places where a certain political party is banned (within a "respected" democracy) are Germany and Austria, where anything resembling the Nazi party is illegal.

Basically, you are allowed to think and believe what you want. If you don't like them, then vote for the other lot.

[Darkscull]

gabber-baby, I think you rely a bit too much on anecdotal evidence.


the fact is everyone has to wait ages for a house.

also, i think you're being even more biased than you think, and a bit blind to actuality, considering your descriptions of the immigrants in your area apply to most people nowadays, especially the natives (if we were using my anecdotes as evidence, the immigrants would be more polite and better spoken than the natives), although the not a word of english only applies to the teenagers.

[faragher]

Housing is getting low though, we cant afford to let anymore immigrants into the country. My brother and his fiance had a baby a month ago and have been on the waiting list to get a bigger house for months, their new born child has had to sleep in moses style basket at the end of their bed because they have been waiting for so long to find a house, but the council couldnt find one because there's not enough housing to go around!


When the BNP start doing riots and protests screaming "HEIL HITLER! WHITE SUPREMACY!" Then ill start worrying.At the risk of sounding like a harsh and nasty bastard: Your brother and fiance are lucky to have a house at all. I have worked fucking hard all my life, and only this year was able to afford to buy a house (I am 33) - and that was only because I had a very good year last year... Previously to this, me and my wife spent our lives in a succession of crappy rented flats and houses, scraping by every month and never receiving a penny from the state. Why does your brother deserve a house any more than I do? If he wants a bigger place, he should get a better job and rent one. He chose to have the child, he can chose to do something about his situation.

And the reason there's not enough housing to go around? Maybe its because the Tory governement decided that it would be a good idea to allow people to buy the social housing stock at a massive discount, whilst conveniently failing to build any more.

And as for the "Heil Hitler" thing - again, maybe this is because of my age, but... I remember when the NF were active (and remember that the NF had pretty much the same politics as the BNP do now). I am well into my reggae and ska, and you would go and see bands play in pubs and the like. Now bizarrely, the NF and the skinheads* decided that this very black music would be their style of choice, so you regularly got NF supporters there.

And I have seen the Nazi Salutes, and seen them shout "Zeig Heil", and (I am slightly ashamed to say, being much older and wiser) I have been involved in the odd scuffle with them.

The BNP has done a great job of rebranding, but it is the same people, with the same ideologies and the same hatred as were once in the NF.

*OK, so not all skinheads were racists (props to the SHARP boys), but at one time, the look of choice for the racist was skinhead. Its really weird really, as the skinhead look came from Jamaica. I figure that it is just a coincidence that the look and music became fasionable at the same time as the right-wing politics came to the fore.

[Darkscull]

a lot of the NF supporters were quite odd (going from what i've heard, i'm too young to have been there) in their liking of reggae and ska.

i mean, ska, two-tone and such were the fusion of the very thing they wanted to 'defend' and the very thing they were 'defending' it from, and reggae wasn't even that, just the music of the people they hated.

but then, there is a long tradition of the people getting swept up in such racist things having a discrepancy between the abstract scapegoats they hate, and the actual things they see. they don't seem to realise that if they got their way, then lots of things they actually quite liked would be gone.

using the nazi example again, many young germans (and others, later) joined up with the nazis because of the thrill of being a part of something, and the hope of an end to lifes troubles, even if they had jewish friends, or even jewish family (extended family). i've seen so many interviews of people (and heard personal stories, from my grandparents), of people supporting the nazis ideas and (crucially) voting for them, but then being horrified when those very ideas were implemented and started affecting their real lives.

this is why education is key, because although there are some who wholeheartedly believe in the twisted ideas that some people spew out, the majority just don't quite know what they're letting themselves in for.

[Twatybollocks]

The idea of something like the BNP is for people who have geniune concerns about race issues which may affect this country so they can put their case forward politically without resorting to hatred or violence.

Unfortunately the extremist elements always get involved which spoils the basic principle.

And Gabber-Baby - A genuine concern in this country is the amount of people expecting the state to provide them with housing and subsidising their lives. This isn't an ethnic minorities issue. Your brother and girlfriend choose to have a baby and then gasp, shock, they don't get a big house! Oh the outrage, I'm off to see my MP!

[Gabber-Baby]

And what im trying to say is that there isnt enough housing to go around - so why carry on letting thousands and thousands of people into the country?

[Darkscull]

And what im trying to say is that there isnt enough housing to go around - so why carry on letting thousands and thousands of people into the country?

because not all of them claim housing benefit.

now is the time for someone to look up the numbers of immigrants, and compare that to the change in the numbers of people claiming housing benefit, and see how they match up (or not).

i may have a go, but i know some people keep stuff like that bookmarked somewhere for debates like this, so i shall wait to see if anyone has that info before i go searching.

edit:

also, gabber-baby, if you've already decided not to trust the statistics, then say now, and i won't bother getting them.

[Bewildebeast]

2006 immigration and asylum stats are at http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm71/7197/7197.pdf. Relevant housing stats are probably somewhere at http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/; buggered if I can find them though

[faragher]

And what im trying to say is that there isnt enough housing to go around - so why carry on letting thousands and thousands of people into the country?
Because they fall into 2 categories - people who are seeking asylum because their lives are in danger, and people who we need here to make sure our economy doesn't collape. Do you not understand that without immigration this country would be a wreck?

Blaming the massive housing issues on immigration is shortsighted and wrong. The housing problems are much deeper reaching than that - we have a hyperinflated housing market, borrowing rates that are high compared to much of the rest of the world, and an artificially restricted housing market.

This has been going on forever - there have never been enough houses, and they have always been too expensive.

Also, just on a side note - how English are you? I'd bet a dollar that a living member of your immediate family is less than 5 generations away from an immigrant. So why the hell should you get all the perks?

[Twatybollocks]

And what im trying to say is that there isnt enough housing to go around - so why carry on letting thousands and thousands of people into the country?


Well according to the governmnet, they claim a certain amount of immigrants is a good thing as a lot of them work and fill gaps in industries where either people don't want to work in or the skill set is not sufficient, Doctors being the best example.

Not saying the government is 100% being truthful here and maybe there is too many immigrants than the country can support but think about it, if the majority of them simply came here and stole council houses from people like your brother then I'm sure imigration would be a lot tighter than it is.

I think the housing issue is more to do with houses being so expensive combined with people coming through the education system without enough qualifications to get them on the ladder in decent employment. Add in a benefits system which is too easy to defraud and that's why there isn't enough homes for those who geniunely need them.

[Gabber-Baby]

Also, just on a side note - how English are you? I'd bet a dollar that a living member of your immediate family is less than 5 generations away from an immigrant. So why the hell should you get all the perks?

No you're right, my grandmother is german and was actually all for Hitler in his time, my grandfather is russian, my other grandfather (dad's dad) is from Trinidad. So yeah, im only 1/4 english, so technically i am a "bloody immigrant". Im not denying that, the only problem i have is with this fucking country. Most of the people i have this sort of debate with agree that Britain is going to pot...if immigrants are so great for our country why is our government saying that it needs to stop and that something needs to be done.

The problem is being recognised so i cant understand why everyone here is so pro-immigration. House prices are going up because they're on such a demand.

If immigration is so good for our country, why is our government cutting back on it?

edit/ question answered :p

[piemastermike]

Heh, well im definitley for alot of their views to be honest.

- Pensioners before asylum seekers
- Economy, British workers first
- Democracy

The BNP say that in 60 years time, the british people will be an ethnic minority in our own country and lets be honest, we can see that happening already. It annoys me when people label them as nothing but rascist pigs, they're not really.

Yeah, some of their views may be a bit dodgy but they're trying to keep Britain, Britain

I think most people already know my views on immigrants and asylum seekers but hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion :rolleyes:

The BNP are getting more votes every year, i think they need to be given a chance to really express their views. Just like what's his face Abdulla Muhammid or whatever his name is who starting preaching in the middle of london about how everyone should convert to islam and why, he got his say so i think others should get to have theirs.

If BNP prove to really be that unpopular then so be it, but i truly think they might stand a chance. People are too scared to stand up for what they really want to say these days.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Look at the population statistics and you'll find that white British people are IN NO WAY A MINORITY in this country. I think that the demographic for non whites or immigrants or whatever is somewhere around the 5% mark and its just narrow minded people like you and other Daily Mail and right wing tabloid readers that are shouting about it and making things seem worse than they are.

I'm totally ok with immigration as it is because these people have come from their respective countries (Poland etc) with degrees and they are taking on jobs cleaning toilets and the like - JOBS BRITISH PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO DO - just so they can earn more money than they do at home. If you want to clean toilets for a living and work as hard as they do then that's cool, i'm sure if you wanted the job you could have it. However I very much doubt you want to so stop harking on about it.

Pensioners before asylum seekers? Fuck off. I'm sorry for being so abusive but this is the one topic that REALLY makes me angry. When I see people talking like this I do want to stamp on them until they understand. Anyway, back to the matter at hand. Asylum seekers take little to none of tax payers' money. In fact I could make a similar argument and say that we should cull all over 65s because what the fuck are they putting into the economy? Nothing. They are just taking taking taking and wasting money that could be spent on schools and hospitals. I don't think like this but you get the example. As things stand pensioners actually get fuck all and neither do asylum seekers. That argument simply doesn't stand and don't even fucking think about defending it.

I've already covered the British workers first thing, but again this is a horribly bigoted and racist view to hold. Want to hear something ironic? You are probably descended from immigrants. How does that make you feel? Going to go scrub your hands till they bleed? According to your views you should just fuck off home. So should I, so should most people actually. Probably everyone as Britain is founded on immigration (Normans, Vikings etc).

On the issue of democracy, yeah if BNP candidates want to stand then they are fully entitled to and they do, unsurprisingly no one votes for them because they can see them for the racist thugs that they are. Sadly you're too blinkered by the tabloids and people around you that have also read the same thing in the right-wing media. Hitler used the same ideas through "democracy". Promoting the idea that Germans should be Germans and none of those fucking Jews. Greedy bastards. You are essentially sharing the view of NAZIS. Don't try and deny it because everyone can see it. You are a filthy Nazi. how does that make you feel? Not good.

This might look like a personal attack on you but I will submit anyone who shares your views to this kind of thing. You are all racist pigs.


edit: on the issue of housing, you should see the amount of housing springing up around Colchester. You should also see the plans for building more housing set out by the Government. People are actually complaining all over the south east of england that there is too much housing going up! Seriously, I doubt it would be possible to build more.

[faragher]

No you're right, my grandmother is german and was actually all for Hitler in his time, my grandfather is russian, my other grandfather (dad's dad) is from Trinidad. So yeah, im only 1/4 english, so technically i am a "bloody immigrant". And now your brother is in social housing and your dad can't get work? By your own standards, you and your family are the problem...

Think about it, if we had applied your standards 100 years ago, you wouldn't be in this country.

Listen - I know that it is easy to believe that something like immigration is the cause of all this countries problems, but in reality, that is just a smokescreen - a simple and incorrect myth peddled by media and politicians who have a vested interest in us not looking too hard at what the problems really are.

The UK does have some problems (though less than you think), but they are not caused by immigration, they are caused (in the main) by lack of opportunity and social inequality. Your dad is struggling to find work - perhaps if his access to education and training was/is better he wouldn't be in this situation. Your brother is living in a house too small? Perhaps if there was more social housing, and he had had better opportunities he wouldn't be in this situation.

Try to look beyond what you are told is the problem, expand your horizons, look around you and above all DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING THE BASTARDS TELL YOU.

If everyone realised the extent of social inequality in the UK, there would be uproar - much better for the powes that be to give us something else to blame eh?

[basstard]

And what im trying to say is that there isnt enough housing to go around - so why carry on letting thousands and thousands of people into the country?

Surely the solution here is to build more housing?

That way we can all have houses and we continue to allow immigrants and asylum seekers in.

The other plus side of building more new housing is that if we build enough new homes, house prices will go down (supply and demand, innit) and the Daily Mail will have to find a new bugbear other than house prices.

[faragher]

We can't build enough housing because there aren't enough people with the skills in the UK.

Catch 22 innit.

[Twatybollocks]

No you're right, my grandmother is german and was actually all for Hitler in his time, my grandfather is russian, my other grandfather (dad's dad) is from Trinidad. So yeah, im only 1/4 english, so technically i am a "bloody immigrant". Im not denying that, the only problem i have is with this fucking country. Most of the people i have this sort of debate with agree that Britain is going to pot...if immigrants are so great for our country why is our government saying that it needs to stop and that something needs to be done.

The problem is being recognised so i cant understand why everyone here is so pro-immigration. House prices are going up because they're on such a demand.

If immigration is so good for our country, why is our government cutting back on it?

edit/ question answered :p

As stated earlier an certain amount of immigrants is good for the country but this needs to be controlled so it doesn't become an issue. If you and the people you talk to think the country is going to pot then stop reading the Daily Mail, you'll feel a lot better and a lot less angry about things you can't see or control.

[maxxy_p]

Gabber-baby; I worked for most of the Summer with an employment agency, doing the rough jobs that most people don't want to do. Menial labour, bad conditions, rubbish pay. Sorting stuff out from skips, moving shit round in warehouses, working at a rubbish dump. I didn't really enjoy it, but it was a job and it got me money.

Working in these places, about a third of the people there were from poorer East-European countries. They were the most hard-working by far, since they were actually willing to do the work. And they were a lot more fucking cheerful than the few Brits that worked there, because most Brits don't want to do shit work like this.

Those aren't the guys who are taking your council houses. They rent their own flats, work hard, and almost every immigrant I talked to at these places isn't staying here long-term. They work up some savings over one or two years, which can then be enough for them to buy a house back in their home country. They aren't staying here to invade our culture; it's easy work to these guys, because their own economies are still fucked over from Communism.

These aren't the people you're ranting about, Gabber. The immigrants that are screwing Britain over only exist in your head.

[Purple Wabbit]

The only problem I have with immigrants is when they fail to make an effort to learn English. This is possibly just my area, but I live in Birmingham, and I have a lot of friends who have relatives living with them who cannot speak English and therefore cannot integrate into society. This seems to me to be counter-productive to the idea of a mixed-race society. I have absolutely no problem with immigrants (or asylum seekers) settling here, but I admit I find it a little obnoxious of them if they make no effort to adapt to our culture, including the language. I don't mean they should all convert to Christianity or anything stupid like that, but they should at least make an effort to learn the language so that they can function usefully in our society.

I realise this is not necessarily easy, and I wouldn't advocate the idea that people who cannot speak English are just point-blank refused entry, but I would support the idea that those who seek a permanent visa should be required to at least attend English classes. I'm all for integration, but I don't see how this is possible if people don't speak our language.

[maxxy_p]

Personally, everyone I encountered spoke pretty good English. I think it's just holidaymakers that don't make the effort.

[piemastermike]

gabber-baby, just to totally make sure you don't try and defend the members of the BNP as racists here's a list of their convictions:

http://kirkunity.blogspot.com/2007/03/bnp-party-of-convictions.html
http://www.stopthebnp.org.uk/uncovered/pg07.htm

shit.

[Purple Wabbit]

Personally, everyone I encountered spoke pretty good English. I think it's just holidaymakers that don't make the effort.

Well Birmingham, or at least the area of it I used to live in, is quite highly multi-cultural, so like I said, it's possible that it's just in my area where this is more common; I admit that in the country as a whole it's probably a very small minority, I've just encountered it personally quite a lot.

[Twatybollocks]

The trains I've been using to commute to work for the past year or so have refreshment trollies which are almost always being run by people from Eastern Europe. They have strong accents but are perfectly understandable and more importanly can understand our 'English' (accents and all) quite clearly.

They are nice, friendly and hard working. They probably earn very little but you never see them complaining or hiding in one part of the train unlike your average british worker doing the same job. I should know, I've been using the trains for years!

I also work in an office with a large contingent of people working over here on a visa from India. They are very intelligent, friendly, great to get on with and have a work ethic that puts me and my fellow white enlgish people to shame. I know for a fact they are on a third of what I am yet and can be here for the best part of a year before spending a couple of weeks back at home with their families, then they are back here working their bottoms off again.

If you read papers like the Mail they would turn this into a story about THEM taking OUR jobs and you'd be outraged but in reality they are filling gaps in the market. They are either doing the jobs no one else wants to do or have skills which companies desperatley need and can't fill through recruiting in this country alone.

None of the people who work with me from India live in a council house, they rent or share homes therefore they are even contributing to the economy!

[basstard]

The only problem I have with immigrants is when they fail to make an effort to learn English.

I realise this is not necessarily easy, and I wouldn't advocate the idea that people who cannot speak English are just point-blank refused entry, but I would support the idea that those who seek a permanent visa should be required to at least attend English classes. I'm all for integration, but I don't see how this is possible if people don't speak our language.

I think it is very rich for the UK to demand all immigrants learn English bearing in mind our current track record for foreign language learning.

Do as I say, not as I do, I guess.

[Purple Wabbit]

I think it is very rich for the UK to demand all immigrants learn English bearing in mind our current track record for foreign language learning.

Do as I say, not as I do, I guess.

I don't agree with English people going to live in other countries and not learning the language either, just to be clear. My view applies to all immigration, to any country; you want to live there, learn the native language, or at least make an effort to, otherwise it's just rude.

[Gabber-Baby]

You know what, i really dont fucking appreciate being called a fucking nazi piemastermike and i certainly dont appreciate having abuse hurled at me for expressing my fucking views.

Grow up and let me think what the hell i like.

I havnt said im gonna fucking vote for BNP so chill out! Jesus christ. At the end of day, the BNP should be allowed to exist, the same as any other political party no matter how extreme they are. Some people are for them and some are against. I have no side.

Some people need to seriously chill out and let others have their opinion.

[Twatybollocks]

You know what, i really dont fucking appreciate being called a fucking nazi piemastermike and i certainly dont appreciate having abuse hurled at me for expressing my fucking views.

Grow up and let me think what the hell i like.

I havnt said im gonna fucking vote for BNP so chill out! Jesus christ. At the end of day, the BNP should be allowed to exist, the same as any other political party no matter how extreme they are. Some people are for them and some are against. I have no side.

Some people need to seriously chill out and let others have their opinion.


You do know swearing and throwing a tantrum in a debate pretty much means you've lost and any point you may have tried to make is gone out the window. If you don't like people responding to your opinions with anything but applause and praise then I'd suggest sticking to the cheese bin.

[piemastermike]

You know what, i really dont fucking appreciate being called a fucking nazi piemastermike and i certainly dont appreciate having abuse hurled at me for expressing my fucking views.

Grow up and let me think what the hell i like.

I havnt said im gonna fucking vote for BNP so chill out! Jesus christ. At the end of day, the BNP should be allowed to exist, the same as any other political party no matter how extreme they are. Some people are for them and some are against. I have no side.

Some people need to seriously chill out and let others have their opinion.

essentially you are sympathising with the views of the far right so I just deduced from what i've seen. I'm not "hurling abuse" for you expressing your views but I am hacked off that you and people like you seem to blame all this country's problems on immigrants rather than taking a long hard look at yourself and people around you for the reasons a lot of other people have stated.

[Gabber-Baby]

No, im actually offended that i was called a nazi. Hence the angry swearing.

If this is going to be one of those "Omg Gabber-Baby, you're such a rascist!" rants again then i give up. I cant get anywhere without being slated because of my views. It's not fair that i get called a rascist nazi.

[bigmother]

December 2006 Richard Mulhall, the BNP's council group leader in Calderdale, was sentenced to do 200 hours of unpaid work on four counts of benefit fraud. Branding him "thoroughly dishonest", Recorder Felicity Davies said he only escaped jail because relevant legislation was not yet in force when he committed the offences. He was also ordered to pay £2,000 costs and to repay £603.18 in jobseekers' allowance. He had already repaid the housing benefit and council tax benefit. A jury had found him guilty in October of falsely claiming a total of £3,002.95 in benefits by concealing the fact that his partner was working.

bloody bnp coming in and taking all our taxes.

[piemastermike]

This isn't going to be one of those rants, and fair enough you're offended but we both exchanged views and stuff like that happens.

[El Fisho]

The BNP is more dangerous than people like to think. People seem to believe its separate from Nazism but its not. I'm sure your not a racist GB, or a Nazi but you don't help your case by coming out with sweeping generalisations. You can use immigrants as a scapegoat, or try and address the broader deeper problems in our society.

The Nazis rose to power in Germany on the strength of their policies on the economy and social welfare, not by shouting about how they hated jews (the learnt the lessons of their failed attempt to seize power in the 1920s).

There is evidence to suggest that the Nazis did not even intend to engage in racial cleansing, but just to move the Jews out of the country. They campaigned on more Jobs for 'true' German people, and for restoring a sense of national pride. Sound familiar?

It was only when it was far far to late that people began to realize what the Nazis where really capable of, and what life under their regime would be like.

It wasn't the mass support for Nazism that allowed Hitler into power, because there wasn't. It was mass apathy towards politics, and people agreeing with their moderate views and not really taking seriously that they'd ever implement their more radical ideas.

I havn't done the best job of explain that, I'm tired, and I'm not having a go at GB who has already said she won't BNP. I'm just trying to show, people think that a Nazi state could never happen here, that everyone in Germany was all for it. The truth is it was an insidious, quirt process that seemed legitimate. It rellyed on inaction of the majority, and people not noticing what happening until it was to late. It could happen here, a lot easier than you might think, and its a truly frightening prospect.

[katt]

You do know swearing and throwing a tantrum in a debate pretty much means you've lost and any point you may have tried to make is gone out the window. If you don't like people responding to your opinions with anything but applause and praise then I'd suggest sticking to the cheese bin.

Skimming over the thread it appears as though pmmike was the first one to lose his temper and start swearing. :) Which does not do him favors because it only draws attention away from whatever debate points he might have and makes him appear too tempermental

I am not going to comment on the bnp because I do not know anything about it.

[Splush]

Angry, angry words!
Some of this strays a bit too far into "personal attack" territory, please don't do that here.

You do know swearing and throwing a tantrum in a debate pretty much means you've lost and any point you may have tried to make is gone out the window. If you don't like people responding to your opinions with anything but applause and praise then I'd suggest sticking to the cheese bin.
This is rather out of order too.

[Hydralisk]

I am in favour of the following BNP policies:

- compulsory national service for all citizens
- Organic farming

I am against Immigration on the grounds of ill-founded logic: to elaborate, if you have a foreign worker and a british worker, then whoever does more work for the same wages should be hired. I don't understand why people think that Brit workers are so lethargic - surely if they just lazed around on the trains they would get the boot? Or am I just confused?

However, their other policies e.g. re-criminalising homosexuality, illegalising inter-racial couples, etc... just sicken me so much that I could never bring myself to vote for them.

[Nocashvalue]

- compulsory national service for all citizens

Where on earth would that get us?

[Darkscull]

I am against Immigration on the grounds of ill-founded logic: to elaborate, if you have a foreign worker and a british worker, then whoever does more work for the same wages should be hired. I don't understand why people think that Brit workers are so lethargic - surely if they just lazed around on the trains they would get the boot? Or am I just confused?


I think you're confused.

the only reason that immigration affects employment is that in some cases, the immigrants are willing to work for less money, and the employers take advantage of that.

it's not people preferring immigrants because they're immigrants.

in fact, there is a tendency for people to not hire people because they're immigrants (unless they're the people who take advantage of them), although that has caused a perceived backlash of people hiring immigrants on purpose to not seem racist.

it's quite confusing, but it's not what you thought.

[Chris]

Some of the things they say about Gay people makes me sick.
That bothers me more than the Racism.

[Roachy]

Its not down to qualifications at all. People are so naive its untrue. My boyfriend worked as a home cinema installer and worked on site with a polish guy.

My boyfriend asked him how he got into installing high end cinemas, the polish bloke replied "I worked in a coffee shop and the man i served owned an installation company." He knew nothing about home cinema installtion at all, in fact he fucked the job up which my boyfriend then had to fix. So its got nothing to do with qualifications.

In fact, my boyfriend has just told me that his dad is now being hired to fix work that he quoted for in the first place, that a european worker has fucked up basically. People only go with the foreign workers because they're cheaper yeah. Exactly what im saying. Its not fair.

Oh, and that's his fault that he got propositioned for a job is it? The only person I see at fault there is the guy who hired him.

I'm glad you support a party lead by a man who denied the holocaust.

[Gabber-Baby]

I'm glad you support a party lead by a man who denied the holocaust.

*sigh* and once again, like others, i agree with some of their policies. Ffs.

I dont agree with alot of the things they say, stuff about stopping inter-racial marraige is ridiculous...If i became a member of the BNP and actually said in this thread "Im all for the BNP and agree with everything they say, anyone who thinks differently is a faggot." Then you can say i support them.

[happy-go-lucky]

But putting pensioners before bloody asylum seekers is a good idea, there are so many british people put aside so the government can give houses to people who have been in the country for 5 minutes, who have no money at all to support themselves and cant speak a word of english, how is that fair on people who have been waiting to be homed for years? Its not! Ive said this before but Britain really needs to sort it out, we need to become more like America and Austrailia - you're only allowed into the country if you have money to support yourself and if you have a legitimate trade. It makes sense! Am i the only one who thinks like that? I must be.



My mum works in housing, and they've recently set up a new system for housing applications.

This might be a bit wrong, but it's more or less what I've gathered off her.

There are four bands; gold, silver, bronze, and low need.

The gold band is for people who are at high risk, and have a high need of housing. In South Norfolk I think there are about 10 of these.

Then there is silver, slightly lower risk, then bronze, which is lower again, and then the low need band. Pretty much anyone can go on the low need band, but they're pretty much certainly not going to get a house.

So, if there is a pensioner in great need of a house, and an immigrant who has a job, and could probably afford to rent or buy, the pensioner will come in a higher band than the immigrant.

However, if there is an asylum seeker who has just arrived in England after escaping from their own country, and would be at great risk if they returned there, they would most likely come in a higher band than someone with a decent pension who would just like to get a council house and sell where they live at the moment.

[bobfrey the great]

with people like this around, is there any wonder we still get unrest, can people not just be accepted for who they are? i probably know just about nothing as i am only 15 but all these people do is incite racial hatred, not matter what they say they are doing. The party is fascist which means they are on the same level as Hitler. We don't want a repeat of that do we? the colour of someone's skin is no basis for judging them.

We don't need no british movement
Nor the Ku Klux Klan
Nor the national front
Make me a angry man
I just wanna live in peace
Why can't you be the same from 'Why' by The Specials. Seems almost 30 years on it's still valid

[manny]

I saw a great interview on TV years ago with somebody from the BNP. He told the Scottish Indian interviewer that they weren't a racist organisation, and simply thought people should go back to 'where they come from', and that the BNP will even pay for their transport 'home'. Then the interviewer asked what would happen to his nephew (IIRC) who had a white Scottish mother and an Indian father and the BNP representative literally didn't have an answer for that situation, like it had never occurred to him that that circumstance might arise.



That was Mr. Hardeep Singh Kohli in "In Search of the Tartan Turban", I searched for a clip of it but came up blank.

However I found this which was quite interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZOwzVOJacg&feature=related

Also to kinda branch out on a few things that have been raised:

I remember interviews with schoolkids who when asked "what do you want to do when you grow up?" answered "I want to be famous". It makes me wonder if this fascination with celebrity and "living the dream" means people don't want to start at the bottom and work their way up the ladder these days. Someone has to do the jobs at the bottom, and maybe immigrants from countries with a stricter work ethic are exploiting this gap in the market, as we don't want to do it ourselves.

And the idea of someone's relation getting paid to fix other people's crappy workmanship, surely that's provided work for them rather than taking it away? I feel most people would pay more for a good job, than pay less for a crappy one. People may be fooled the first time by lust for a cheap price, but they'll soon learn that quality doesn't come cheap.

Its a bit like the manufacturing/car industries in the UK, most can't compete with the sheer volume of cheap products pushed out of Asia, so it's the companies that produce smaller numbers of higher quality goods that will survive.

[Turkey Sandwich]

If immigration is so good for our country, why is our government cutting back on it?

Also I think that's largely to do with the fact that they were worried about upsetting people, so they started knee-jerking by capping immigration from Romania. When they were asked why they did it, the government couldn't give a satisfactory answer based on their own views. They don't really want to do that, they're just more concerned with getting re-elected.

[Gabber-Baby]

Also I think that's largely to do with the fact that they were worried about upsetting people, so they started knee-jerking by capping immigration from Romania. When they were asked why they did it, the government couldn't give a satisfactory answer based on their own views. They don't really want to do that, they're just more concerned with getting re-elected.

So surely that means that the only reason our government is saying all that is to keep the british people happy, because they know it's what they want? The majority of people in Britain dont want anymore immigrants in? That's basically what ive been trying to say.

[Darkscull]

So surely that means that the only reason our government is saying all that is to keep the british people happy, because they know it's what they want? The majority of people in Britain dont want anymore immigrants in? That's basically what ive been trying to say.

politicians (and governments) aren't very good at assessing what the majority of people think. they tend to be quite reactionary, and listen to the loudest voices. in this case the loudest voices are those of the daily mail et al.

[doctor_fruitbat]

*sigh* and once again, like others, i agree with some of their policies. Ffs.

I dont agree with alot of the things they say, stuff about stopping inter-racial marraige is ridiculous...If i became a member of the BNP and actually said in this thread "Im all for the BNP and agree with everything they say, anyone who thinks differently is a faggot." Then you can say i support them.
I'm going to have to quote myself here:

The BNP don't base their immigration policies on what is economically best for Britain, or indeed socially best from the viewpoint of most British citizens. They base it on a fearful hatred of everything outside an extremely narrow viewpoint, and even if some good points come out of it, it starts having adverse effects such as trying to stop black people getting into politics. In accordance with Godwin's law, I shall reference the Nazis as an excellent example of what happen when you vote a bunch of screaming, maniacal fascists into power.
I think the reason why so many people are opposing you so much is because ultimately, the BNP are based purely and entirely in willfull ignorance and fear, and Weeblites in general are informed enough to know to that that is not the right way to do things, no matter whether or not it results in some scenarios being resolved in the 'right' way.

However, I will defend you in so much that some forumites have been incredibly reactionary to you, and not given your views the airing they deserve. Much as I like you, piemastermike, you were out of line with what you said. I've been guilty of raging at people in the fairly recent past, so i can't compain too much, but nonetheless, I was wrong. A debate should be a reasonable discussion of viewpoints. It's easy - and right - to be passionate, but it isn't always beneficial for convincing someone that your own opinions are entirely well thought out.

Just trying to make up for past mistakes. :)

[piemastermike]

I guess this is the one issue that really really really gets me going and I did go over the top. It kind of scares me that people still have these views I suppose. Anyway, sorry for totally going off on one but I stand by my opinion that anyone who supports the BNP is a racist just by the nature of the party.

[katt]

I guess this is the one issue that really really really gets me going and I did go over the top. It kind of scares me that people still have these views I suppose. Anyway, sorry for totally going off on one but I stand by my opinion that anyone who supports the BNP is a racist just by the nature of the party.

no you always go over the top if someone disagrees cause you think you are entitled to be a jerk. in fact you told me i 'don't deserve to breathe air' because i don't hold your opinion on a particular religion

[Sebas]

no you always go over the top if someone disagrees cause you think you are entitled to be a jerk. in fact you told me i 'don't deserve to breathe air' because i don't hold your opinion on a particular religion
His one issue is racism. You disagree with that "particular religion." Anything else aside, that is discrimination by creed, so racism. Ergo, same issue.

[Cheechy]

Please keep all debates "civil".

[faragher]

This isn't a debate about how bad we all are at debating dudes...

Tempers flared, people said things they regret. It happens. I have to say that I have had to bite my e-tongue a bit in this debate, as I have real problems with the BNP and the way people sometimes approach the issue of immigration and race. But I've previously said my piece, and so won't add further fuel to the fire. Apart from saying this of course:

To all those who (like myself) get very angry about people who hold views that could be seen as racism, or who shudder at the way people rant about immigrants, maybe you should remember something very important - you'll never get people to examine (and hopefully change) their view of the world by calling them a nazi.

If you are really passionate and determined to do something about racism, you have to work out a tactic that will get people to examine their beliefs without feeling harassed and threatened. Thus my posts about what else we could look at instead of immigraton as the cause of the various problems.

Just a thought.

[Gabber-Baby]

Just to make things clear, I know there are immigrants that do come over to england and genuinly work hard and for those i have nothing against. I am going by what ive read in numerous papers and from my own personal experience which is biased i know, blah blah etc etc.

I just think something really needs to be done about immigration - and no, its not because they're from another country and that their skin may be a different colour because that would be rascist. Its the fact that Britain is over crowded and we need to do something about it (still dont know how that makes me a filthy nazi but still :rolleyes:). Like i mentioned before, as did someone else, a point system needs to be introduced and a strict one too.

When i was little, my mum and dad wanted to move to New Zealand as they had a high demand for my dad's trade - carpentry. New Zealand also work on a point system and we were 1 point away from emmigrating. The reason why we couldnt move is because my dad was too old to qaulify for that one extra point. That's something Britain needs to take notes from (I know people are going to call me a hipacrit now).

But honestly, how many more people can we fit into Britain?

[Snoon]

This debate wouldn't have been half as interesting without Gabber's input. It's ironic that one of the main points given throughout this thread is that the BNP has a right to exist, yet when someone offers an opinion which could be interpreted as supporting this party, the argument is ripped to shreds. Of course, this may simply be a case of the argument itself being fallacious and too reliant on anecdotal evidence, but I cannot think of a well reasoned argument to support the BNP. However, if Gabber (or anyone else, for that matter) had proposed a strong argument for the BNP, would this have caused a lesser reaction?
Of course this is debates, so it would be ridiculous to simply compile a pretty list of opinions. It just seems, for me, difficult to couple the idea of promoting freedom of speech, even for those in the far right, only to tear what they say apart. I see no solutions in that.

[Splush]

That was Mr. Hardeep Singh Kohli in "In Search of the Tartan Turban", I searched for a clip of it but came up blank.
Yeah that was it, well remembered. We watched it in a sociology of identities class once.

[killsteel]

Just to make things clear, I know there are immigrants that do come over to england and genuinly work hard and for those i have nothing against. I am going by what ive read in numerous papers and from my own personal experience which is biased i know, blah blah etc etc.

I just think something really needs to be done about immigration - and no, its not because they're from another country and that their skin may be a different colour because that would be rascist. Its the fact that Britain is over crowded and we need to do something about it (still dont know how that makes me a filthy nazi but still :rolleyes:). Like i mentioned before, as did someone else, a point system needs to be introduced and a strict one too.

When i was little, my mum and dad wanted to move to New Zealand as they had a high demand for my dad's trade - carpentry. New Zealand also work on a point system and we were 1 point away from emmigrating. The reason why we couldnt move is because my dad was too old to qaulify for that one extra point. That's something Britain needs to take notes from (I know people are going to call me a hipacrit now).

But honestly, how many more people can we fit into Britain?

Japan seems to have done alright.

Actually I'd like to see a special test being introduced. It would measure your reasoning, compassion and maturity. Everyone has to take it once per year, and anyone who fails can (but not necessarily is, we need plenty of manual labourers, and kicking out the mentally challenged and extremely elderly would be a little cruel) be kicked out, as well as not being legally considered an adult. It would replace laws concerning age and make a hell of a lot more sense. The BNP would disappear overnight. Granted, they would still exist, but at least they'd be another country's problem.

[Darkscull]

gabber-baby, considering you seem to be interested in the issue of immigration, I find it odd that you haven't been keeping an eye on the news.

britain is getting a points system, quite soon. i'm not sure of the details or who it would apply to, but it's happening.

[Gabber-Baby]

gabber-baby, considering you seem to be interested in the issue of immigration, I find it odd that you haven't been keeping an eye on the news.

britain is getting a points system, quite soon. i'm not sure of the details or who it would apply to, but it's happening.

To be honest, im not really into politics (hence my lack of long political words :p) and only watch the news if its on in the background.

[Darkscull]

well if you're going to actually argue against people that are into politics and such, then you may want to go further than just anecdotal evidence and assumptions.

i'm not saying "you must do this so we can debate you" or anything like that, it's just that the debate goes nowhere really.

[manny]

Yeah that was it, well remembered. We watched it in a sociology of identities class once.

I watched it on ch4 ages ago when i was too lazy to get up but couldnt remember what it was called, and my compulsive tendancies made me have to find out. You owe me 5 hours of searching :mad:

You or whoever linked me this damn thread on irc.

[Sewer Side Cafe]

I can't believe that my first thread's lasted so long. But I think that the whole debate has really come down to the answer, that yes, the BNP should be allowed to exist. Not many people have argued in favour of the BNP, but i think that the majority of commentaters agree, that freedom of expression has overruled the majorities distaste for the party.

Ps, thanks to gabber baby for keeping this a balanced arguement, and holding her own.

[Magpie]

This debate wouldn't have been half as interesting without Gabber's input. It's ironic that one of the main points given throughout this thread is that the BNP has a right to exist, yet when someone offers an opinion which could be interpreted as supporting this party, the argument is ripped to shreds. Of course, this may simply be a case of the argument itself being fallacious and too reliant on anecdotal evidence, but I cannot think of a well reasoned argument to support the BNP. However, if Gabber (or anyone else, for that matter) had proposed a strong argument for the BNP, would this have caused a lesser reaction?
Of course this is debates, so it would be ridiculous to simply compile a pretty list of opinions. It just seems, for me, difficult to couple the idea of promoting freedom of speech, even for those in the far right, only to tear what they say apart. I see no solutions in that.

People are arguing for the BNP's right to exist, not to exist without criticism. An equivelent to them not being allowed to exist would be if mods deleted every one of her posts. They are letting her post but arguing with her just like they would argue with the BNP in the real world.

[Splush]

Yeah, I think that's part of the point of letting extreme parties exist, it makes the debate public and hopefully exposes the more sinister sides of their policies. It bothers me how Germany bans certain fascist symbols, forcing the issue underground doesn't seem like it can have any positive outcomes. Same with former communist nations banning the red star and such.

[Sloth]

bnp should take a play out of the wig's playbook... the last one.

[tehmoogles]

On the issue of democracy, yeah if BNP candidates want to stand then they are fully entitled to and they do, unsurprisingly no one votes for them because they can see them for the racist thugs that they are. Sadly you're too blinkered by the tabloids and people around you that have also read the same thing in the right-wing media. Hitler used the same ideas through "democracy". Promoting the idea that Germans should be Germans and none of those fucking Jews. Greedy bastards. You are essentially sharing the view of NAZIS. Don't try and deny it because everyone can see it. You are a filthy Nazi. how does that make you feel? Not good.

I'd just like to go back to this post for a moment. Whilst I sort of share some of the more lefty views here, I'd like to ask why nobody took this wonderful opportunity to invoke Godwin's Law?

[Turkey Sandwich]

Godwin has come up somewhere in the thread, heh. Not sure where though.
Although to be honest, Nazi analogies are much more apt in a BNP debate than they are in most places - considering that the culture of agreeing with a 'strong' party but ignoring its extreme views is pretty much entirely what brought Hitler and co. to power.

[El Fisho]

ignoring its extreme views is pretty much entirely what brought Hitler and co. to power.

Thats the point I was trying to make.

I would not use the Nazi analogy unless it was extremely relevant (because of the chiche), and unfortunately in this case... it is.

[Smokey]

If you want immigration controlled then there are other parties who would propose this themselves without chucking out everyone who was already in the country and arresting gays. Don't UKIP have a strict immigration poicy?

[bigmother]

But honestly, how many more people can we fit into Britain?

here's a plan, how about we kick out all the lazy people living off the state and let in all the eager-to-work immigrants and see if the country gets better or worse shall we?

It's so arrogant to assume that just because you were born here you are entitled to deny others the opportunities granted by your good luck.

On the other hand, I'm all for arresting gays. fucking carpet baggers make me sick.

[Gabber-Baby]

I was being serious about my question. I would actually like to know the figures.

[Bewildebeast]

Define "fit". People per square km, people per residence, or what? We currently have about 281 people per square kilometre - about 3558 square metres per person (0.87 acres each).

[bigmother]

shoulder to shoulder? millions.

[Gabber-Baby]

Well how much more of the countryside are we going to ruin by building more houses? Alot i should imagine.

[Turkey Sandwich]

Or we could just build upwards.

[Darkscull]

Well how much more of the countryside are we going to ruin by building more houses? Alot i should imagine.

in my experience, and my extended experience from the news and other sources, most of the houses being built in the countryside are for middle-class 'british' people, and the increasing numbers of such houses doesn't appear to have anything to do with immigration.

rather, it's because houses everywhere else are getting too expensive for many people to afford.

there isn't an actual shortage of houses as in, space for people to live in. but rather there are a minority with lots of houses (for example, people who have a load to try and rent).

when the housing market crashes there'll be houses to spare.

[El Fisho]

Well how much more of the countryside are we going to ruin by building more houses? Alot i should imagine.

81% of the UK is classed as rural (as of the 2001 census). And 'ruining' is not as clear cut as you might think. Most modern farming methods leave what people imagine to be an idealic setting as little more than an ecological desert. Urban environments can provide habitats for larger ranges of wildlife. Not that I'm suggesting we get trigger happy on the greenbelt, but its more of a grey area than its often seen as.

This is however, another debate for another topic I believe.

[GorillaBearBear]

when the housing market crashes there'll be houses to spare.

From what I've heard there already are in a lot of places up north because no one who's just got their degree wants to live in Liverpool or Hull. Round here though it's a right scramble for houses.

[Hydralisk]

Where on earth would that get us?

It would give people a sense of civic pride, thinking that they have done their bit for their country. People who like a military life can stay on and it will give the people back home a greater sense of discipline and organisational skills, not to mention the ability to actually communicate arguments without using their fists, or "aye? well, yer maw."

Obviously we'll need some way to organise it so half the bloody country doesn't leave for service at the same go, and obviously there's the whole war in Iraq thing, but I'm fairly sure that it would help us.

Anyway, that's a whole other topic. Back to the BNP thing. I think it's generally agreed that they have the right to views, but we should educate the general populace more thoroughly about Immigration issues and such like.

[Splush]

This might make me sound like a raging hippy but I always thought it would be cool if our country instituted national service but, instead of sending people to the military for a year, we sent them to a british equivilent of the US's Peace Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_corps) so people could learn discipline and all the rest but also get to travel the world and have their eyes opened to other cultures (by helping them, rather than shooting at them) and maybe come home with broader minds. It would also have the added benefit of making people around the world like us a lot more.

I'm generally not a fan of any sort of mandatory service, but the Peace Corps idea is quite an interesting one to me. I can't say this with any real authority, but from an outsider's perspective it seems like the military just fosters a culture of bullying and xenophobia; xenophobic bullies make effective soldiers.

This is really off-topic, sorry.

[Roachy]

I can't say this with any real authority, but from an outsider's perspective it seems like the military just fosters a culture of bullying and xenophobia; xenophobic bullies make effective soldiers.

This is really off-topic, sorry.

Not necessarily off-topic. If the BNP came into power, I don't doubt that they would foster a culture of xenophobia on a wider scale across our country. They're already cultivating xenophobia at the moment.

[Darkscull]

Not necessarily off-topic. If the BNP came into power, I don't doubt that they would foster a culture of xenophobia on a wider scale across our country. They're already cultivating xenophobia at the moment.

well, in order to get into power they would need to foster a culture of xenophobia on a wider scale.

so by the time they're in power, there will already be such a culture.

but yeah, they would certainly make it more established.

[Roachy]

well, in order to get into power they would need to foster a culture of xenophobia on a wider scale.

so by the time they're in power, there will already be such a culture.

but yeah, they would certainly make it more established.

True, yes. I was just thinking it would be a lot worse if they came into power. I never want to find out either.

[Baguette]

Although i completely against most of their views, they do hold a good policy on enviroment and farming.
http://www.bnp.org.uk/pdf_files/minimanifesto2007.pdf
(warning adobe reader)

but yeh apart from that they are complete racist fucks

[Timmeh]

What annoys me about the BNP is they have some great ideas amongst all the absolutely mental ones. They seem to mix all of their great policy ideas in with the insane ones and what worries me is they don't actually seem to know the difference.

What concerns me most of all, however is that some of their "normal" policies are so tempting (NHS improvements, making joint custody the norm, removal of stealth taxes, income and inheritance tax threshold increases etc) that a great number of British people who think that the other policies won't really effect them could vote for the BNP just to see these changes implemented and before you know it we're no longer in the EU, hanging criminals and deporting everyone who "looks a bit foreign". I think it's a real risk and it genuinely concerns me.

[katt]

I feel I can contribute to this discussion after having read the wikipedia article on the BNP and their party platform.

First of all I would NOT support the BNP. The first big clue was the fact the founder was a fan of hitler. The second is they would deport any citizen who was not white or make them a permanent guest which is lame. Sounds like the KKK with enhanced snob factor to suit the most discriminating snob.

If you tried to tote that platform in the US you would just get laughed at because alot of non-white people have ancestors dating back here longer than a lot of white people.

However, regarding immigration:

The BNP has clouded the immigration issue with their racial views. The issue can be completely separated from skin color. It can be an issue of the numbers game.

For example, hypothetically speaking, if every white person living outside america wanted to suddenly immigrate to the United States (and once again this is hypothetical) I would be against that. I am against unregulated, illogical, poorly thought out rates of immigration regardless of skin color.

There is the issue of solidarity. It is a balance: to keep the immigration at a steady rate so the new immigrats have a chance to accustomize themselves to their new country (and learn the language) without upsetting the happy status quo that is already in place or creating culture clashing problems en masse. If the immigrants are coming in at an extremely high rate then the balance can get messed up. There is always too much of a good thing.

Another hypothetical example to illustrate my point about solidarity: lets say americans kept wanting to move to sweden/holland/iran/japan/wherever in huge numbers with their american, very right wing views and vote/push the status quo that is there out of power. Obviously many natives would likely get irritated by this as it would feel violating to the established culture.

Regarding resources:

This may sound cynical but the world is a hard place. here it goes:

If you culture bacteria on a petri dish they will eventually enter a rapid, exponential phase of growth nyoming up the resources. then the resources will die out (resources are always a finite quantity in a given space although they vary depending on technology and the type of land) and eventually the population will not be able to handle it and will start to die off.

The united states has a finite amount of land. So does the UK and it happens to have a smaller amount of land so unbridled immigration could become an issue more quickly there.

Ask yourself this: could the entire population of the world's less fortunate comfortably fit on the land that defines the UK. The answer is no.

Therefore to encourage unregulated, extreme amounts of immigration with the goal of 'saving the world's poor' is like trying to fill up an oak barrel with an entire lake. It is not going to be possible to fit everyone who might like to be there. (and eventually the barrel will split at the seams. I believe many people who are for unbridled, uncontrolled immigration want to destroy their country or balkanize it so it is a mess)

If you feel strongly about the poor in other countries then perhaps it is worth making use of your own blessings to go try and help their own country learn the ways of prosperity via education/etc. I think most countries are capable of the success found in europe and the united states under the right circumstances. Plenty of resources rich countries are poor.

many liberals argue these people do not want this they prefer their own culture. But I think this is a cop-out. Obviously many of them want what we have cause they keep immigrating! To suggest a group of people need to evolve before they are able to appreciate good food, a non-corrupt govt, the opportunity to work up, freedom and shelter is being a bit of an 'intellectual' snob.

***

Back to the issue of immigration. I support the variety and new talent immigration brings at sensible levels. But I love my country and I don't want it being swamped to the point where its principles quickly become lost due to being balkanized. I think immigration should be watched over and people should be selected on the basis of bringing needed talents (regardless of skin color).

Obviously the culture of the united states would be much more stagnant if it were not for the variety of people who have come here. And I am glad to be in a country where people have traditionally come to work for a better life.

[Bewildebeast]

What annoys me about the BNP is they have some great ideas amongst all the absolutely mental ones. They seem to mix all of their great policy ideas in with the insane ones and what worries me is they don't actually seem to know the difference.
I would conjecture that they're very aware of the difference, and that it's a very deliberate effort to create the situation you suggested:
What concerns me most of all, however is that some of their "normal" policies are so tempting (NHS improvements, making joint custody the norm, removal of stealth taxes, income and inheritance tax threshold increases etc) that a great number of British people who think that the other policies won't really effect them could vote for the BNP just to see these changes implemented and before you know it we're no longer in the EU, hanging criminals and deporting everyone who "looks a bit foreign". I think it's a real risk and it genuinely concerns me.

[Disgruntledgoat]

words
-Without immigration, the population of Britain would actually be falling.

-Many of those who come to Britain do so on a temporary basis to earn some money before going back home to their families.

-Culture is a constantly changing process. Its not something you can pin down and define straight away. The culture of now is probably very different to the culture of fifty years ago. And in fifty years time the culture will be different to now. Just because things have changed within living memory, people assume that this is a new change and this is because of immigration. Partly, this is true as immigration has been something which has gone on for years, but increased so much more since the 1950s.

So the idea of "losing our culture" isn't really valid either.

[piemastermike]

Has anyone mentioned the ageing population of the UK? Without immigrants then we would be stuck with a country of old dependants and therefore no one paying taxes, immigration helps to counteract this.

[GorillaBearBear]

-Culture is a constantly changing process. Its not something you can pin down and define straight away. The culture of now is probably very different to the culture of fifty years ago. And in fifty years time the culture will be different to now. Just because things have changed within living memory, people assume that this is a new change and this is because of immigration. Partly, this is true as immigration has been something which has gone on for years, but increased so much more since the 1950s.

So the idea of "losing our culture" isn't really valid either.

Do you really think so? I wouldn't agree with you here, I don't think. When I think of my culture, as in British culture, I think of a hybrid of several different cultures - largely something indeterminately British, but with a lot of elements of Jamaican and Caribbean culture after mass immigration here after WW2, elements of Indian culture - indeed elements of all cultures we once colonised I suppose, a long with a helping of American culture because of our close relationship with them, again probably largely out of WW2, and of course nowadays the ever present Polish and other EU immigrants. Now I don't think there's anything wrong with that, far from it, I only say that to me, that is what British culture is because that is all I've ever known, that's how it's always been to me while I was growing up etc etc.

But when I think about what it must seem like to my grandparents, I sort of wonder how it looks to them. When they grew up, most everyone in Britain was a Brit - or if they weren't there was, I think, a sense of superiority on the part of the brits to those from other cultures because they were there because we ran their country. The motherland as they called it. Now my grandparents were all fairly sensible people, so they weren't bitte about it, but I imagine they must have felt slightly like they'd seen their own culture eroded.

What I'm trying to say is that yes, culture does change - that's natural and it would do that on it's own as history shows, there is a certain revolutionary aspect to humanity's growth that requires change socially every so often - but I don't think that means you can't pin down a definition of a culture. You could quite easily pin down an idea of a Brit, I think, around the World Wars, but just as easily I think you can pin down a definite British culture now - it just happens to be broader and more multicultural (best word I could think of, not perfect).

This leads me on, I suppose, to what I think about people like the BNP, and people opposed to immigration and so on for reasons of race and cultural pride and heritage. I would imagine that most of them remember when British culture was more like it was around the wars - even as late as the 70s Britain was pretty different from most other places - and now that it has changed around them they don't like it, because they don't understand that these changes in culture are necessary. And while most people accept it, maybe even embrace it, some of them choose to react. It sort of fits into the theory of an ancient, a dominant, and a progressive ideology always existing in any state. I imagine that by the time I am 40 (or hope, at least) that the ancient (I've forgotten the actual term) will have withered.

Another point of course is that by isolating yourself you can absolve yourself of guilt. In an ideal world, all countries would be sufficiently developed that complete freedom of movement and immigration between countries wouldn't make much odds.