Men, women and the use of the truth.

[argh]

http://thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=433774
http://thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=442309
http://thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=454823

So apparently readers got pretty pissed when Dan (the writer) put the advice that was sent in to a man/man couple in the contex of a man/woman couple.

Shouldn't the truth be the truth no matter who it's going to? Why would you need to sugercoat the truth for a fat woman, but be blunt and rude to a fat man?

I guess this is less of a debate then some, but why is it natural and expected to be nicer to women then men?

[JebblehMooo]

Well, thats not always the case.
(Have you seen Jeremy Kyle?)
But i suppose its just been a trait that's been followed on from when men were gentlement and treated women daintily as if they were fragile creatures, but as our cultures changed over the years, and women are not seen as flowers who should be seen and not heard, this has given men the ability to feel they can say whatever opinion they like to women, as they should I feel, as anyone, no matter what gender they are, has the right to say whatever they want =/ whether it be male of female, if its intended to be hurtful, its going to be taken badly anyway.

[Darkscull]

need to fix links in the original post. the address goes inside the [url=...] bit, the text you want it to appear as goes in the rest. if you just want the link, just type it, and it works.

can't be bothered to copy and paste the links :p


just going from what was said in the first post:

I think that the truth is the truth is the truth. often you may want to hide it or distort it in some way (eg. sugarcoating), but that should be decided for the individual, not for a generalisation like gender or something.

[Sewer Side Cafe]

I think that our society, whilst also having a view of women being "dainty", also has a twisted view that men are "tough". The things that women say to men sometimes are so harsh, that if a man said it to her that relationship would be over. eg:

Woman: fancy going to the gym?
Man: no, why?
Woman: i just noticed you looked kinda... out of shape.

The other way round would result in a beating for the man.
I personally think that you shouldn't be so blunt with anyone. (unless you hate them)

[Purple Wabbit]

I think it's all about the media tbh. Look at renaissance paintings and all the women have big hips, actual tummies and not over-sized breasts. Now compare that with the women in glamour and porn magazines today. Now consider how much the media thrusts this image of what we should look like (male or female) onto us and our respective partners on a daily basis.

We are trained from a young age to think that fat=bad. And so it should come as no surprise that when our partner puts on weight, we start to lose our attraction for them. And then the question becomes, if you love someone but are no longer attracted to them, does that mean the relationship is failing? Is it important to be attracted to your partner? And if so, how do you bring up the issue in a manner that doesn't make you sound shallow?

I would assume most people, when faced with such a situation, would prefer to try and fix the problem at hand than give up and go cheat? So I have sympathy with anyone (male or female) who would admit that the weight is a turn-off and suggest something be done about it rather than take the easy way out and cheat. While I certainly wouldn't be happy (ok I'd be devastated) if my boyfriend told me he found me less attractive because I'd got fat, I'd see where he was coming from. And personally, I'd rather lose a few pounds than lose a guy I'm in love with, however pathetic and unfeminism-esque that may seem.

As to the issue at hand, I'm with Darkscull; the truth is the truth. If the truth is that you are less attracted to your partner than you were, isn't it better to discuss it with them rather than give up completely? That's what makes someone shallow; not finding someone less attractive due to weight issues but giving up on a relationship due to weight issues without giving any kind of alternative a chance.

This applies to men or women. It's a sad fact of life that women, even independant 'feminist' women, still seem to think that in certain areas they're entitled to more than men; in this case, more tact, or more complete glossing over of unpleasant truths. Equal rights should mean exactly that: equal rights. Including the right to be told the harsh truth if it is necessary (but, I would like to emphasise, ONLY if it's necessary).

[gembird]

My boyfriend is getting a bit of a podge because he recently started an office job, and I have said to him that he should do something about it- however that's because he's getting a bit down about it rather than because of me not finding him attractive. He has also complained that I don't always make as much effort as he would like with my appearance- now that he has more money he wants to go out for dinner more, and last weekend I couldn't be arsed to dress up and go out.

We try to be tactful, but neither of us are very good at taking hints so it has to be quite blunt. I honestly don't mind if it's something I know I should be doing anyway. I actually have a hard time dealing with people who don't want to hear the truth- if you sugar-coat things too much, they can stick their heads in the sand and pretend nothing's wrong.

Having said that, I don't think people should be harsh for the sake of it- a bit of tact is nice.

[argh]

The thing I found weird was:
To a man: Lose weight because you're getting fat and unattractive
To a woman: Lose weight becayse I'm concerned about your health.

It kinda bothers me that the readers of this column (if you read it, you'd know what I mean) could be so obliviously sexist.

[happy-go-lucky]

I think it should be the same for men and women. If someone I was with didn't fancy me any more for any reason, I'd want them to tell me.

And I agree with argh about the readers of the column, one of them said:
Please, don't ever, ever, ever recommend that a straight man tell his straight woman partner that he doesn't find her attractive anymore. Leave "complete honesty" for you lithe and lean gay boys.
If I was that woman, I'd want to know the guy I was with didn't fancy me any more.

[Ozzylator]

Since when did truth become gender-conditional?

[katt]

i think complaining about a few extra pounds is shallow but if someone balloons out to truly staggering morbid obesity i would definitely mention it bothers me point blank:P

edit: and i think that works vice versa as well

[bobfrey the great]

Since when did truth become gender-conditional?

very good point

[argh]

Since people think it's fine to tell a guy "You're fat" but think for a woman it should be "I'm concerned about your health."

[Twatybollocks]

What is and what isn't acceptable is purely based on what is acceptabke at the time.

At the present time it's deemed ok to have a go at men in general, be they fat bald or what. They are seen as ok targets for jokes and jibes.

At the present time it's deemed rude to have a go at women. I think the main reason weight is such an issue is so many women are becoming dangerously underweight becuase they believe this makes them attractive and more successful. Saying 'you are fat' to a woman, even if it's true, is just not the right think to say these days even if it is suger coated.

[Splush]

It seems pointless coming up with general rules about it, it should just come down to the different individuals involved. The columnist didn't know how the correspondent's partner would react to what he suggested, but I'm sure he assumed that the correspondent would use their own judgement based on their experience of how sensitive their partner is.

For some women "you are fat" is earth-shattering, others would take it in their stride and give back as good as they got, it totally depends on the individual personalities and how well they know each other.

I suppose I personally prefer the 'taking it in their stride' thing but I'm unlikely to actually come out and say "you are fat" to anyone.

[gembird]

For some women "you are fat" is earth-shattering, others would take it in their stride and give back as good as they got, it totally depends on the individual personalities and how well they know each other.

Yeah, that's true. If someone called me fat I wouldn't care too much as I don't have weight issues (as in being overweight, I used to be underweight and it sucked), and if I did it would probably push me into doing something about it. but I know a lot of girls who are really paranoid about being fat, to the point where they think it's a good idea to stop eating for a week because some horrible little shit in the street calls them a fat cow.

[katt]

I don't think it should be gender conditional assuming the person who is recieving the criticism really is obese according to medical standards and it is not just a case of a few pounds overweight.

I think it would do the individual a greater disservice if someone let him/her become obese and unhealthy rather than offering a bit of gentle criticism.

if people are afraid to tell women she is fat it is probably because of the super-thin model thing/anorexia problem.

[Darkscull]

if people are afraid to tell women she is fat it is probably because of the super-thin model thing/anorexia problem.

also, unlike anorexic, super-thin models, it hurts when they punch you.

I think that it's not just politeness (or whatever. sparing feelings, or not wanting to appear rude etc.) that causes people to not say anything, but also the fact that it is often seen by the subject of the comment that it is meant to offend them.

they don't want to know the truth, and no one wants to tell them. sounds like it should work out, but doesn't really, since it makes the whole issue disappear from conversation and so people get fatter and fatter as if it wasn't a problem.

this is a generalisation, of course, and doesn't apply to everyone. some people may want to know the truth, but the people in a position to tell them might not know that, and will probably use the generalisation above.

[lilparp]

Don't think many fat people would instantly become anorexic or dangerously thin just because someone told them something they already knew. I imagine Darkscull is right about not wanting to offend people, particularly if they are a close loved one.

Most fat people know they are fat anyway, so it is, in my opinion, either necessary to tell them if you are worried about their health or if subjectively you feel compelled for other reasons.

You wouldn't want to be rude though.

[katt]

Well i was referring to cases where there is a romantic attatchment. Although I really think that people who are morbidly obese (im not talking in slight terms) could do with some gentle encouragement for health reasons. morbid obesity can lead to a lot of health problems and reduced life-span.

There is criticism meant to wound and criticism meant to help. And you could choose very gentle, soft words to suggest exercise or a diet change without even mentioning the words 'you're fat'

If i was close enough to someone who chain smoked i would mention being worried about them smoking tons of cigarettes too because its not healthy.

I think it would be worse NOT to care personally

[maxxy_p]

While it may be the case that some people are too stubborn to listen to reason, you can but try. The only way we learn is by criticism and the reactions of the world to our actions. Not taking someone you know and care about aside to tell them how you feel is the same as saying you care more about their opinion of you than their quality of life.

Regardless of gender.