Faith Schools

[lilparp]

Are faith schools a good thing or a bad thing?

Should preference ever be given to students based on their religion?
Should the education system support schools likely to be somewhat one-sided in their approach?
Should the government subsidise Faith Schools?
Are there genuine benefits?
What are the disadvantages?
Should children be taught amongst others of different beliefs rather than of one belief system alone?

Your thoughts, please.

[gembird]

Personally I think faith schools aren't a good thing. It might be because I'm not religious, but I think sometimes religious beliefs get in the way of a well-rounded education. For example, teaching Creationism as opposed to evolution is a problem, although in the UK it doesn't happen that much as far as I know. Obviously everyone needs religious education, but I feel it should be as objective as possible, and children should be taught about all major world religions rather than just the one that all the grown-ups believe in where they go to school. How else are they going to learn that belief and faith are individual choices to make?

I don't agree with the government subsidising faith schools. They should be encouraging integration and tolerance, not giving people money to say "We are right /God's chosen people/the one true religion. God made everything in x amount of time in this way and that is final. people who aren't like us will go to hell." If people really want their children to be that sheltered and naive they should teach them at home.

Wow, this post is oddly intolerant for me. I would like to clarify that I have no problem with belief in itself, I just feel that organised religion shouldn't be forced on children.

As for the kind of people who start going to church because they think that the local faith school is better than the others, well, they're hypocrites. To me, that's even worse than sending a child from a religious family- at least that family actually believes in the same religion.

[BlueIncaPilot]

Are faith schools a good thing or a bad thing?

Should preference ever be given to students based on their religion?
Should the education system support schools likely to be somewhat one-sided in their approach?
Should the government subsidise Faith Schools?
Are there genuine benefits?
What are the disadvantages?
Should children be taught amongst others of different beliefs rather than of one belief system alone?

Your thoughts, please.

Right one thing at a time.

Faith schools I think are a good thing. This is because I went to one. If a family have faith in a religion, then that child should have the right to choose to go to a specialised school which emphasises that religion if they so wish. One advantage is religion is a great moral teacher, which is a good thing to have drummed into you in this day and age. Also as for different beliefs being taught, well they are. In R.E you learn about all the other major world religions so I don't know what that's all about.

and children should be taught about all major world religions rather than just the one that all the grown-ups believe in where they go to school.

Again, you do!

"We are right /God's chosen people/the one true religion. God made everything in x amount of time in this way and that is final. people who aren't like us will go to hell."

I'm not aware of any faith schools that teach this. It doesn't sound like you're regular anglican Christian view, who teach tolerance and love of others regardless of the colour or creed. We believe the Genesis story is open to interpretation, perhaps representing 7 periods of time rather than 7 fixed days. The first and last bits of that quote sound very Jehovah's Witness to me, and I'm not aware of any Witness faith schools. Just for a comparison:

...It comforts all peoples with the good news that God's Kingdom will soon destroy those who oppress their fellow men and that it will turn earth into a paradise...

The comments you make show a very generalised and narrow minded idea of what a modern day Christian is and believes.

Wow, this post is oddly intolerant for me. I would like to clarify that I have no problem with belief in itself, I just feel that organised religion shouldn't be forced on children.


Lastly, as I recall, no one I know was forced into going to this or that secondary school. It was their own personal choice, so the religion taught is not forced upon them.

[PS]I know the thread isn't necessarily about Christian schools but I'm applying what is said to what I know about. You'll have to get someone else to give you an idea of other ones.

[Darkscull]

I don't really have any well defined views on faith schools, but I'm interested in the issue, so I may comment here from time to time, like so:


Lastly, as I recall, no one I know was forced into going to this or that secondary school. It was their own personal choice, so the religion taught is not forced upon them.

It's your parents choice where you go to school.
If you've got parents that will listen to you and not force you, then that's good, but if you don't then the only options other than submitting are to get yourself expelled, or to run away from home or something (which aren't exactly feasibly choices for many people, which means that they have no choice).
that's just clearing up things, not necessarily defending gembirds position, but rather questioning your response

[katt]

Obviously everyone needs religious education, but I feel it should be as objective as possible, and children should be taught about all major world religions rather than just the one that all the grown-ups believe in where they go to school. How else are they going to learn that belief and faith are individual choices to make?
.

I think parents have a right to bring up their kids according to the religion they follow themselves. Just like people who don't believe in a religion (or god) have a right to bring their kids up according to those beliefs. Or like those people who believe in being open to more than one religion have a right to bring up their kids according to that belief. etc.

That being said I am glad I did not go to a faith school because I think a general education and spiritual education are separate spheres. I think an educator with a huge 'agenda' (political, spiritual or whatever) has more potential for being annoying that someone who just wants to teach the basic facts and go home. :)

[gembird]

The comments you make show a very generalised and narrow minded idea of what a modern day Christian is and believes.

I'd like to point you to this part of my post:

I would like to clarify that I have no problem with belief in itself, I just feel that organised religion shouldn't be forced on children.

I don't feel that all Christians are bad, nor do I feel that way about any other religion. I just think people should be given equal amounts of information about different religions so they can decide what they want as they grow up. If they stick with what their family has brought them up to believe, then fine. I don't agree with faith schools of any religion because I don't agree with organised religion and the amount of power it has, so to tell me that I have a certain view of Christians in particular is not true. I'm well aware of the fact that there are plenty of well adjusted people who have gone to faith schools and/or have a strong belief in God(s), but there are also plenty of us who have perfectly good morals without that kind of upbringing. I don't feel religious schooling is necessary, and in some situations it can be damaging.

[BlueIncaPilot]

It's your parents choice where you go to school.

Well it might be for you, but me not knowing anyone who has been forced by their parents to go to a faith school would have to disagree.

I would like to clarify that I have no problem with belief in itself, I just feel that organised religion shouldn't be forced on children.

I did read that, and I didn't say you have a problem with religion but this quote:

They should be encouraging integration and tolerance, not giving people money to say "We are right /God's chosen people/the one true religion. God made everything in x amount of time in this way and that is final. people who aren't like us will go to hell."

seemed to follow the pattern of what an increasing number of people who do not understand the real beliefs and values of a religion seem to stick that in the gaps instead, when it is false.

[Darkscull]

Well it might be for you, but me not knowing anyone who has been forced by their parents to go to a faith school would have to disagree.


do you know anyone whose parents wanted them to go, but they didn't and so they went somewhere else?

[gembird]

None of us have said all faith schools are really pushy and/or fundamentalist, although I obviously didn't make it clear. It's when they do get like that that it's a problem. I'd rather just not have them and then you don't have to be concerned.

If it helps, I don't think there should be 'atheist' schools with no religious education at all either.

[BlueIncaPilot]

do you know anyone whose parents wanted them to go, but they didn't and so they went somewhere else?

I don't many people from other schools it's not something I'd think of asking them. Not one single person who I do know however has expressed how it was their parents choice of school rather than theirs. My little brother and sister are both 8 and have already said they wish to go to their local C of E.

[faragher]

I think parents have a right to bring up their kids according to the religion they follow themselves. Just like people who don't believe in a religion (or god) have a right to bring their kids up according to those beliefs. Or like those people who believe in being open to more than one religion have a right to bring up their kids according to that belief. etc.

That being said I am glad I did not go to a faith school because I think a general education and spiritual education are separate spheres. I think an educator with a huge 'agenda' (political, spiritual or whatever) has more potential for being annoying that someone who just wants to teach the basic facts and go home. :)katt, what would be your view on Muslim schools being set up in the US?

I think faith schools are a bad idea, but my reasoning is less to do with faith, and more to do with the politics of any kind of selection that is not based purely on merit. And I'm not that keen on merit based selection either.

[Darkscull]

I don't many people from other schools it's not something I'd think of asking them. Not one single person who I do know however has expressed how it was their parents choice of school rather than theirs. My little brother and sister are both 8 and have already said they wish to go to their local C of E.

that just means that none of them object to going.

If you agree with the choice someone has made for you, and would have chosen it anyway, then it doesn't come up that it wasn't your choice.

I'm not saying that loads of kids are forced against their will to go, I'm just pointing out that the idea that it's their choice is a fallacy. (even if the parents listen to the child and decide accordingly, it's still them choosing, just the method of picking has changed).

Also, this isn't specific to faith schools. Generally, kids don't have control over where they go to school (except for the extreme measures I've mentioned previously).
It applies to the faith school argument because some people in favour use the argument that all kids going to faith schools have chosen to be there rather than other schools, and so faith schools should have more freedom to decide their own curriculum, or something.
(NB. i'm not countering that argument, i'm just saying that that sort of thing is why this point matters)

[bobfrey the great]

this is a tricky one because i do know someone who has been told they have to go to a faith school despite wanting to go to the school i go to. Having said that he doesn't not enjoy being at the other school and tries so hard to make us think he's cool there... anyway thats a bit off topic.

Proper answer: I have no problem with them as long as people definately get their own choice on whether to go there or not. I'm not sure about any other religious schools except christian ones but they dn't seem to be forcing beliefs on the children who go there.

[Drattigan]

I go to a faith school and I learn normal stuff.
There is no difference in education, except perhaps RE can sometimes be more specialized.
They're there to back up relgious belief, not force them into anyone.

Personally, I think they're a good idea.

[tehmoogles]

I'd say that it's actually very similar to a school that teaches you to belong to one political party - they may educate you about others, but in the end you haven't much choice over which you accept.

I think it's wrong for the government to subsidise faith schools, in that no other State schools are allowed to pick and choose who they accept, so why should they?

[nub]

In my re classes we spend most of our time looking at morality and descison making in the wider world. It's a bit like pshe to be honest.

[katt]

katt, what would be your view on Muslim schools being set up in the US?

I think faith schools are a bad idea, but my reasoning is less to do with faith, and more to do with the politics of any kind of selection that is not based purely on merit. And I'm not that keen on merit based selection either.

I'd not be crazy about the idea of muslim schools but i don't think i would say they shouldn't be able to have them.

I think they could potentially be a way extremists could turn younger muslims to the radical side. And honestly, you would have to be pretty devoid of sense to support a mushrooming of schools that take advantage of free speech laws by educating the young on how awful the western infidels are. Not saying all the schools would all turn out like that but i can see it going that way.

However, my solution would probably be to stop importing the potential problems by decreasing immigration rates rather than restricting the activiites of the islamic peoples we already have here. :) We have enough problems without importing them en masse.

[Darkscull]

I think they could potentially be a way extremists could turn younger muslims to the radical side.

the arguments people have against faith schools in general are that they make it easier to promote radical ideas and foster intolerance.

However, my solution would probably be to stop importing the potential problems by decreasing immigration rates rather than restricting the activiites of the islamic peoples we already have here. :) We have enough problems without importing them en masse.

one word: conversion.

so, since the specific current situation (ie. that most of any increase in islamic activity in america that there is is caused by the influx of muslims) doesn't apply to all eventualities, do you have any more general comments?

[katt]

the arguments people have against faith schools in general are that they make it easier to promote radical ideas and foster intolerance.

Which is particularly true in the case of the only religious group known to have fostered the extremism necessary to bring down two sky scrapers in nyc.

there are degrees of radical/intolerant and our native christian schools are not that far out



one word: conversion.

?

Two words: less conversion :) (with less muslims to preach their stuff)

And honestly, I am an american and have lived all over the east coast and I don't see much evidence of tons of americans (enough to make a huge difference) converting to islam.

They say its strong(er) among black americans and yet all i see are black churches.

I don't think it really strongly appeals to most free peoples.

[Darkscull]

HYPOTHETICAL.

I thought the talking about how the specific situation isn't the rule, and so some more general thinking might be in order would have implied that.

[gembird]

the arguments people have against faith schools in general are that they make it easier to promote radical ideas and foster intolerance.

Which is what I said earlier, and I got told that I was narrow-minded. Not saying that you've sided with anyone though. I was going to comment on the thing about Muslims in that I don't feel more strongly about any particular religion, I don't like any of them, but then I remembered I'd already said something along those lines regarding my attitude to Christianity.

Which is particularly true in the case of the only religious group known to have fostered the extremism necessary to bring down two sky scrapers in nyc.

At this point I feel I should point out the various other situations where religion has incited violence. Well I never, not all of them involve Muslims as the bad guys. The troubles in Ireland and in the Middle East (remember that Jewish people are just as much in the wrong there too), the Crusades... it always goes on. It just depends who feels the most oppressed or superior or whatever at the time.

[Splush]

I think private schools can teach exactly what they want. As for public schools, when I found out that there were publically-funded schools teaching creationism as science in the UK I got pretty freaked out, but when it comes down to it I don't object if there's a public demand for it. I do think it's important that those schools make it very, very clear to parents what they'll be telling their children, so they aren't sneaking in creationism under the radar or anything. It's still weird thought, knowing that public money is going towards teaching that sort of thing, even if people do want it.

I suppose my school was christian, it was an all-boys private school where we (ostensibly) sung hymns at assembly and spent a lot more time learning about the bible than learning about other religions. I don't think anyone would label it a faith school though, religion never interfered with unrelated subjects and as an organisation they never shoved it down our throats. I'm not exactly sure what the line is between a faith school and a normal private school with a slightly religious angle, really.

The one weird effect I think my school had on me was that I thought I was a christian for a fairly large part of my life. I never believed in god, but I just kind of thought that british people were christian by default, and continued to think that until it happened to come up in a conversation with my mother and she told me we weren't religious. I think up until then the concept of not being religious - regardless of faith - was one that just hadn't occured to me, which is maybe a failure of my religious education.

[Twatybollocks]

It's a parent's responisibility to make sure their children have the education they need to get on in this world. This quite often includes religion as it gives a great basic morality code of conduct.

Those of you who think it's great that parents don't force their kids to do this should also consider it would be great if parents didn't force kids to go to school at all and let them play all day. It's up to the parents to teach them whatever they deem fit and then when the child is old enough to decide for themselves at least they will have the choice to continue or not. Not educating a child in a certain area, whether you believe in it or not, restricts their options when they are older.

There's nothing wrong in principle with faith schools. I went through the entire education system in Catholic Schools so yes we celebrated things like Harvest Festival and had nativity plays at Christmas and yes we had Religous Education classes but all classes followed the national curriculum and we did learn about other religions as well.

I think the problem lies if a faith school diverts from the national curriculum. Teaching creationalist theory for example, in RE this is fine in my opinion but trying to get it into a science class is wrong. You can be in a school of your own faith and have limited classes and school celebrations which address your faith while still being an integrated part of the national education system.

[Splush]

I feel like I may as well bring this up because I'm not sure how many people know about it and it's an interesting complication of the issue. The Emmanuel Schools Foundation (http://www.emmanuelctc.org.uk/thefoundation/thefoundation/) is a group of city academies founded by Peter Vardy, an Evangelist car sales tycoon; former owner of Reg Vardy. The idea behind city academies is that these are largely public funded schools which invite donations from wealthy private citizens to make them better than the average state school, and some proportion of the pupils are selected based on academic merit. In return for donating, the patrons get a say in the school's curriculum, ethos and such.

So, the Emmanuel Schools Foundation is a growing group of schools (three of them just now) financially supported and partly controlled by Peter Vardy. They openly claim to "encourage personal, moral and spiritual development within a Christian framework", but controversy arose when they were accused of teaching creationism in science classes, as well as promoting anti-homosexual messages. This was denied by Vardy and the foundation, but these lecture notes (http://www.darwinwars.com/lunatic/liars/layfield.html), supposedly written by the head of science at Emmanuel College, and if you go through it you find some very questionable material. If you do a word search for terms like "intelligent" and "creation" you'll get a vague idea. Debate continues, Ofsted say the school performs exceptionally, and found no problem with its science teaching but people are demanding it be reassessed.

I mostly find this interesting just because I think us brits tend to snootily assume that creationism in science classes is one of those wacky american phenomena that we're immune to, but perhaps not. It's also interesting because I'm not really sure what my opinion is on it. I think a private school should absolutely be able to teach creationism, and that a state school probably shouldn't, but these city academies lurk in a grey area between private and public sector so it's hard to know what to think. If they really are teaching creationism and trying to keep it secret that's pretty shady, but perhaps that lecture genuinely was an exception, and not representative of the school's curriculum. I wonder if anybody's bothered interviewing the pupils about all this.

sorry about all them pesky words up there.

[Smartie]

I think the problem lies if a faith school diverts from the national curriculum. Teaching creationalist theory for example, in RE this is fine in my opinion but trying to get it into a science class is wrong. You can be in a school of your own faith and have limited classes and school celebrations which address your faith while still being an integrated part of the national education system.

This, in essence.
Unfortunately religious schools are given quite free reign.
My ex's kids go to a Jewish school, and the text books are 'editted' to exclude anything which is about any other religion. How are children supposed to learn tolerance if their religion teaches intolerance?

I went to a C of E school, and we were taught the 'major 5' religions over 2 years.

[feeshy]

I don't think the problem is school-by-religion as per se, more the parents of children involved. If you agree with that religion of your own free will (which isn't exactly clear cut, I've 'had a go' at most religions over the past 16 years as my experiences and knowledge increases) and want to go, fair enough, but if, for example, you have pushy parents pushing you either into being religious or, as seems increasingly common, pretending to be that religion to get into a decent school, then maybe not.

What I do disagree with is the religious worship in non-faith schools- compulsory hymn singing, prayers, religion-based assemblies (the other day we had a self-confessed 'bible ninja' telling us that he can't wait until we all want to use the Bible for reassurance and help) that benefit no one.

[lilparp]

Should faith schools in the public sector be:

1) Allowed to give preference in favour of the school religion - this is after all discrimination.

2) Funded / subsidised by the government - currently around 90% paid for by the taxpayer I think.

[El Kabong]

This, in essence.
Unfortunately religious schools are given quite free reign.
My ex's kids go to a Jewish school, and the text books are 'editted' to exclude anything which is about any other religion. How are children supposed to learn tolerance if their religion teaches intolerance?

I went to a C of E school, and we were taught the 'major 5' religions over 2 years.

This is my main problem with religious schooling: Religions' (no matter which one) biggest fault is their constant ascertations that they hold the truth, and every other religion is spewing lies, which causes students to be extremely biased as to what they will be willing to learn. How could a school for, say, Muslims or Jews ignore how hugely important Christianity has been in the formation of the Western world? For that matter, how could a Christian school ignore Islam without utterly ignoring most of the world events of today?

Most private schools in my area are Catholic or Baptist, however from what I've heard all that entails is going to the campus chapel every Sunday, instead of taking classes in Theology or Divinity. I believe these schools have it right, as they give the students a chance to decide whether they really want involve themselves completely in their religion. They go to church on Sundays, and if they like it there are a plethora of other faith-based events/groups in which they can be involved, but in an extra-curricular setting. They learn everything on the provincial curriculum, and beyond.