More Islam-themed debate: first cousin marriage

[Paradigm^]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=513520&in_page_id=1770

Here's another one, then. An MP has pointed out that there seems to be a Pakistani culture of marrying first cousins. Medical evidence suggests that doing so leads to a higher risk of birth defects in the resulting children. Quote-a-rific time:
Mr Woolas insisted the practice did not extend to all Muslim communities, but was prevalent among families from rural Pakistan. Research has suggested that up to half of all marriages within these communities involve first cousins.

A BBC2 Newsnight investigation in 2005 found that among Pakistanis in Britain, 55 per cent marry a first cousin, and are 13 times more likely than the general population to produce children with genetic disorders. It found that one in ten children of cousin marriages either dies in infancy or develops a serious disability. While British Pakistanis are responsible for just 3 per cent of all births in the UK, they account for one in three children born with genetic illnesses.

The response from the Muslim Public Affairs Council: the comments were "racist" and "Islamaphobic".

For the record, first cousin marriage is legal within the UK. But there are lots of issues here:

Given the high risk of birth defects, should first cousin marriage be legal in the first place?
Was Mr Woolas right in pointing this out? A perhaps pertinent quote from a Lib Dem bloke: "Phil Woolas has gone in with two big feet when tiptoeing would have been more appropriate. If there is now clear evidence that marrying your first cousin leads to unacceptably high risks of birth defects, then we should look again at the law as it applies to all of us, and not seek to single out one community."
Has the Muslim Public Affairs Council had a bit of a knee-jerk reaction and played the victim card, or were the comments indeed "racist" and "Islamaphobic"?


There's plenty to debate here: the rights and wrongs of first cousin marriage, whether legislation should be introduced to outlaw it, whether Mr Woolas phrased things a little short of tactfully, and if the Muslim Public Affairs Council is just a little bit jumpy lately after the whole Rowan William Sharia law thing.

Off you go!

[mrsnuffles]

my uncle married his cousin but they got divorced

i think that the only thing that matters here is the law and the law says it's fine. And i don't think anyone would be in favour of banning this without at least attempting to educate people first.

should we put an age limit on getting pregnant as well and stop all those down's syndrome kiddies getting through?

Muslim Public Affairs Council seem to be their own worst enemy, incidentally

[suic1dal]

Pah. Inbreeding jokes have been going around for generations. Where I come from (the fens), jokes were always made about people from Crowland marrying their cousins. It's not a uniquely Muslim issue, but obviously marrying your cousin is a pretty bad idea. Unfortunately, our genes have not been told about religious sensitivities and continue to cause problems of hidden recessive characteristics coming out when two closely-related people breed. Be them from any culture.
Blast our un-PC DNA. It should get with the times.

Oddly enough, the incest laws significantly predate any understanding of genetics as we understand them today (way before Mendel and Darwin). So maybe it is time to review them with the knowledge gained in the last millennium and outlaw marrying first cousins.

Hybrid vigour for all!

[gembird]

I don't think this really is an Islam-themed debate really. Yes, some Muslim communities encourage first-cousin marriage, but so do other Asian communities and some elsewhere- especially in remote areas where there isn't really anyone else. Religion plays a part, of course it does- it plays a part in most aspects of everyday life- but I don't think it's as much of an issue as the title of this topic suggests.

Anyway. I don't agree with marrying cousins, it seems wrong to me somehow. Apparently you're naturally just not physically attracted to people you share a lot of DNA with- although we are attracted to people who are similar to ourselves. I wonder if perhaps the amount of contact you have with cousins is the main thing here- if you've never met each other, you would just have the tings-in-common aspect (possibly) rather than having a definite sense of 'this person is part of my family already'. Having said that, I barely see my cousins and I wouldn't want to marry them- but they're trendy and I'm not so I think my experience is mostly irrelevant. As I said, it seems wrong to me anyway, but I'mnot entirely sure why. Perhaps it's just the culture I've grown up in, and being brought up another way would have made me think it's okay.

[Splush]

Wow, I had no idea first cousin marriage was legal to begin with. My gut reaction is that if there's an objectively increased risk of the child being born with birth defects then it shouldn't be legal. But if you keep following that logic you get into creepy eugenics territory. I'm not really sure what to think there.

As for the issue of this specifically being about Pakistanis, and this MP being accused of racism, that all seems like a lot of bullshit to me. If we're damning first cousin marriage on the basis that it objectively increases risk of birth defects then that has nothing to do with ethnicity, I don't feel like there's any reason to frame this as a race issue. mrsnuffles is so right about the muslim public affairs committee being their own worst enemy, they're representing british muslims as whiny, over-sensitive attention whores. I'd hate to have those guys representing me if I was a muslim.

[Paradigm^]

It would certainly seem that the MPAC are a bit jumpy these days; they're usually quite good at giving reasoned, rational statements but I don't know what happened here. Given that the MP in question did particularly point out Pakistan as an example I can see where they're coming from, even if they're being needlessly touchy about it.

As for first cousin marriage, I wasn't aware that it was legal here either. I've always looked on countries / cultures that condoned it as a little backward - why unnecessarily increase the risk of people having defective(?!-grammar?) kids? Inbreeding isn't really the best.

[Ozzylator]

The government should not infringe on any sort of consensual love.

[Zhyl]

The government should not infringe on any sort of consensual love.

Your avatar made me lol at this post.

I don't think that making first cousin marriage illegal would do anything apart from piss off the people who want to marry their first cousins. They aren't doing harm to society by having genetically faulty babies. I'd rather have genetically faulty babies than kids on street corners drinking booze and knifing each other.

[Paradigm^]

They aren't doing harm to society by having genetically faulty babies.This country's free healthcare is funded by people's taxes. Less people in hospital = lower taxes. Or does people having less money not count as "harm to society" to you?

Admittedly I wouldn't expect the amount of extra money spent on kids born with genetic faults to be very much at all per taxpayer, but still. I'm sure people would be just as irritated if the Government was to waste the same amount of money on something else.

[/provocative argument]

[Zhyl]

I would think making tobacco totally illegal would do more good.

[doctor_fruitbat]

They aren't doing harm to society by having genetically faulty babies. I'd rather have genetically faulty babies than kids on street corners drinking booze and knifing each other.
What exactly do delinquent kids have to do with genetic defects?

[Ozzylator]

This country's free healthcare is funded by people's taxes. Less people in hospital = lower taxes. Or does people having less money not count as "harm to society" to you?

Admittedly I wouldn't expect the amount of extra money spent on kids born with genetic faults to be very much at all per taxpayer, but still. I'm sure people would be just as irritated if the Government was to waste the same amount of money on something else.

[/provocative argument]

Boils down to freedom vs. security. People want both but can't have both. Would you sacrifice the freedom to marry your cousin for the security of less strain on the healthcare system? I personally wouldn't.

I would think making tobacco totally illegal would do more good.

Then where would the guv'mint get the tax funding to pay for the rest of us?

[katt]

the cousin marrying thing makes such little sense when you consider the billions of people on earth who would bring in some hybrid vigor. but if people want to be silly that is their own business.

[Boyinabox]

I would think making tobacco totally illegal would do more good.
The government would lose billions due to the fact that suddenly most smokers would live to see their pension, rather than only half of all smokers at the moment.

Anyhoo, when I saw this today I pretty much had the same reaction as everyone else here, namely "first cousin marriage is legal?!" and "please shut up whiny muslim public affairs council". There was a similar report about a month ago stating that the number of cases of rickets was going up again due to muslim women up north not getting enough Vitamin D during pregnancy due to being generally darker skinned and mostly covered up and that to got shot down as rascist as well.
These have nothing to do with Islam and seem to be pretty much a cultural problem in certain communities leading to knock on health problems. Theres already health warnings, advice and treatments given out to specific groups (black and asian people have greater risk of obesity and can have drugs which are more effective for them, white people are more prone to skin cancers, etc) so why should this be seen any differently.

These ridiculous knee jerk reactions to anything even remotely critical of ethnic or religious groups just makes me more and more pissed off, I know that these groups really arent representative of the muslim community at large but being constantly being barraged by things on the news stating "group x representing people y hates z" can't help but get me more irritated at whichever group is being represented. I wish that these public relations councils would think more carefully and look into an issue with greater detail instead of releasing a press release a second after they find out.

As for first cousin marriage itself, whatever goes on between two consenting adults is fine with me, even if I don't like the idea personally.

[Pilk Man]

Jeezis, where has this word "Islamaphobe" come from?

Christ, it seems to me that any saying no to the liberal yuppies these days just gets you a negative adjective ending in "phobe".

I hate it when the media make up "phobe" words. And the carbon footprint!

[/OT]

[gembird]

Oh hi, I have liberal political views and I am definitely not a yuppie, thanks very much. Also, I don't care what people's personal views are as long as they're not hurting anyone. However that doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and say that it's okay for people to say things I think are wrong- that's what a debate is for isn't it? Saying why we think something and why we disagree with someone else.

[Splush]

Islamaphobe seems lie a decent enough word to me, it's self-evident what it means and there's no doubt that plenty of people exist to whom it could be applied. I'm sure people misuse it sometimes but blame them, not the word. Anti-Semitism is an accepted term and it seems fairly similar to that.

[Lawrence]

Look, It's not like I'm planning on marrying my cousin so this doesn't really affect me, and i do think that people do have the right to make their own decisions regarding traditions. However, the scientific community does have a really good point. Inbreeding does prevent gene variation. Any birth defects could raise healthcare costs for all. This really isn't much of an argument, though, because in this regard overweight people and smokers, etc. should be banned as well.

And, look, i know there's some discrimination againtst the muslim community, but they do victimize themselves way too much.

[gembird]

Some of them do, but surely the same can be said for lots of people? Some Christians like to think that everyone hates them, some metallers think everyone hates them, some famous people think everyone hates them (they might have a bit more reason to think it though!). It's just the way some people are. If you think about it, there's an awful lot of people who go, "All these people coming into my country, stealing our jobs and living on benefits, they can piss off back home" and they're doing the same thing really. It's a matter of insecurity and paranoia. I guess the reason why people discriminate against Muslims is the same reason those Muslims may feel victimised.

[Lawrence]

Good point.

Though we pastafarians don't feel victimized. Aha!

[Smartie]

Breeding within social or religious circles is an age old thing, not restricted to Islam.
To make this an Islam themed debate is a little churlish.

For example, the Jewish are favoured to marry within the religion only, and the more frum (religious) do indeed date with chaperones, and to a certain extent are fixed-up with suitable children of family friends (although there is no forced/arranged marriage). With a population of less than 500,000 in the UK, and the religion not one which actively recruits (and is therefore in decline in the UK) but wishes for their children to marry within the religion, surely this is a more viable example?

There are specific genetic diseases and hereditary traits (eg Crones disease) which are vastly higher in Jews than in other groups within the UK. However, no-one seems to comment on this as being a result of 'community' marriages.

What exactly do delinquent kids have to do with genetic defects?

That is dependent on the 'defect'. If something is hereditary which causes things like ADHD, it is likely to impact on increased delinquency (through mis-management or lack of understanding of the condition) if that is a side effect of the condition. If close breeding results in increased genetic defects within a community, it can never hope to erradicate or weaken the strains or the effect.

[asmodai]

When I think of inbreeding, I don't usually think of Islam any more than many other regions or cultural groups that do exactly the same thing. It is true that they often marry first cousins, but in light of the current political climate (extreme political correctness), the MP probably wasn't wise to make such statements.

From a biological point of view, marrying your first cousin is not exactly tremendously inbreeding, but when done over generations it is very damaging to genetic variation, and can increase the risks of genetic illnesses, most of which are incurable and therefore a constant drain on the health services.

That's just a scientific viewpoint though, to look at it from a social viewpoint, there's very little you can do when trying to restrict traditions and/or love between two people. All I can say is, good luck with this one.

[Gabber-Baby]

Sorry im a bit drunk here,, but lets face it -

Muslims - Honour killings? What the fuck can u do?
- Extreme terrorists attacks? What the fuck can u do?
- First Cousin marraige? What the fuck can you do?

Nothing. Let them get on with it. Yeah, marryuingb your cousin is down right nasty and i wouldnt consider it or adviase it.

Muslims eh? They;re a wacky nbunch?

Oh no im rascist now.

[Bisyss]

In terms of Islam, and religion in general, it seems that there's a lot of people on hair triggers. The people behind the studies could have handled this with a little more tact, but it does seem a lot of people jump on stuff like this to insist that Islam is being persecuted/Islam is archaic.
Honour killings?
Extreme terrorists attacks?Not to question your logic, but where the hell did these two come from?

[Gabber-Baby]

Read the newspapers, watch the BBC news perhaps?

[Bisyss]

Read the newspapers, watch the BBC news perhaps?Surely that just tarring all Muslims with the same brush? I think this example may have been used before, but assuming that all Muslims support extremists is like saying the Westbro Baptist Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church) speaks for all Christians.

[Gabber-Baby]

I cant even bother to debate, people always go against what isay anywya.

[piemastermike]

Sorry im a bit drunk here,, but lets face it -

Muslims - Honour killings? What the fuck can u do?
- Extreme terrorists attacks? What the fuck can u do?
- First Cousin marraige? What the fuck can you do?

Nothing. Let them get on with it. Yeah, marryuingb your cousin is down right nasty and i wouldnt consider it or adviase it.

Muslims eh? They;re a wacky nbunch?

Oh no im rascist now.

lol?

[Smartie]

I cant even bother to debate, people always go against what isay anywya.

They don't really.
They challenge you on your views and you either back down or get affronted.
If they are your views you should stand up for what you say.

[Lawrence]

"I cant even bother to debate, people always go against what isay anywya."

I agree with you, actually.
Sure, I try not to stereotype, but there are statistics that say that a large percentage of the muslim community believe that honor killings and suicide bombings and stuff are ok. For those who don't, though, I'm sorry...

And i must say, i like the drunk Gabber-Baby. Very entertaining and rascist in a nice way, erm, i suppose...

[gembird]

there are statistics that say that a large percentage of the muslim community believe that honor killings and suicide bombings and stuff are ok. For those who don't, though, I'm sorry...

Oh really? Which Muslim community? And where are these statistics? I'd like to see them, because I've never heard about anything like that- at least, not in the Western world, where Muslim communities tend to be more liberal.

It really does bother me that everything in Debates is about Islam- I bet if I started saying things about how bad Christianity is all the Christians would be angry and offended, because that's not true of the majority of people who are a part of that religion. I can see good and bad things in all religions quite honestly, and it makes me sad to think that so many young people, brought up in a world which has much more tolerance than it had when our parents and grandparents were young, still think it's okay to say that a group of people, millions strong, are dodgy and primitive. As someone who leads a very secular life and studies things like evolution in my current education, I could go around saying anyone who believes in a god or gods is a primitive idiot, but I don't because that's not true. Please guys, don't even imply that sort of thing about people who you don't even know.

/offtopic

I'm sorry about that rant, but it's something that needs to be said.

[Gabber-Baby]

There are alot of islam debates because to be fair, muslim related issues and stories have been in the paper and on tv alot recently.

In Crawley, ive read of at least two "honour killings" in the past year in my area, the bombings in london were by muslim extremists, the whole christmas celebrations at primary schools being cancelled was to do with muslims - not saying it was BECAUSE of muslims but again, the religion has been slapped in papers and on the news.

In fact, in this weeks Crawley News newspaper that gets delivered, a muslim guy was arrested after a violent attack - asked a colleague how her weekend was and then proceeded to plunge a knife into her head, screaming things from the Qur'an and about Allah.

At the end of the day, islamic publicity is everywhere because to put it bluntly and as nasty as it sounds, they bring it on themselves.

[piemastermike]

so do those fucking chavvy bastards that go around knifing people at night. we should deport them too. yeah!

[Gabber-Baby]

Yeah but those fucking chavvy bastards dont scream religous quotes when they go round knifing people.

It was the fact it was a religous based attack.

Who is teaching muslims to associate violent behaviour with their religion? i.e- some people are using the islamic faith as a front to promote extreme views.

A chav who goes round starting fights do so because of the ways they've been brought up and the people they associate with.

Why are there links to extreme acts of violence to the muslim faith? Is that the way they've been brought up?

[gembird]

Well yeah, your religion is part of the way you're brought up, so it is something to do with their upbringing.

There are acts of extreme violence associated with other religions, it's just that people want to hear about Islam-related incidents so they have someone to blame for society being fucked up- Islam is the 'in thing' at the moment and so it's just easier for people to use them as a scapegoat. Not saying that things aren't bad at the moment, but it isn't just Muslims being stupid about it all.

Gabber, I agree with you about people using religion as a front for violence, I think that's part of what makes this sort of thing so complicated.

[piemastermike]

its a shame that a lot of people cant distinguish between religious views and people using religion as a front for a extremism, but then that line can get horribly horribly blurred too...

[Lawrence]

Oh, sorry gembird. I was talking about in the middleeast not the west. Just a clarification.

And sure, let's talk about other religions too. That'd be fair. Although, I assure you that mine has killed absolutely no people. Ha! =)

[Gabber-Baby]

I just dont agree with Islam forcing their religion onto people by violence and terrorism, because let's face it, that's what they're doing. The extremists are brain washed and power crazed, which leads us back to Hitler and his nazis/brown shirts or whatever you wanna call them, that's more or less what they did - but not based on religion, on what was seen as a "pure" race.

[Lawrence]

Look, i really am not sure, but i vaguely remember hearing something about how that koran says that at like judgement day, all non-muslims will have a chance to convert. That true?
If so, i think i'll just wait til then to decide =)

[albie_123]

I just dont agree with Islam forcing their religion onto people by violence and terrorism, because let's face it, that's what they're doing. The extremists are brain washed and power crazed, which leads us back to Hitler and his nazis/brown shirts or whatever you wanna call them, that's more or less what they did - but not based on religion, on what was seen as a "pure" race.
G-G-G-GODWIN'S LAW

[Lawrence]

Christians aren't much better really...

[Splush]

Regarding that story about a man stabbing a co-worker while ranting stuff about Islam, I think the implication that you can take that as symbolic of the muslim population in general is problematic because I'm sure there's been countless lone psychos who have approached their work with a christian flavour, or an atheist flavour or whatever, and people don't generally see those incidents as representative of those beliefs.

Like I'm sure a casual glance at the activities of famous serial killers will find plenty of people who thought they were doing the bidding of some supernatural being, and I think some school shooters have had a militant atheism angle to their crimes. Psychos are just psychos.

Although I suppose when it comes to something like organising a series of suicide bombings you really need something like religion behind you, because random psychos are hard to source and recruit, whereas people who believe they'll be rewarded in an afterlife seem to be plentiful.