God or Satan?

[GriefWight]

Simple question:
God or Satan? which one..? :rolleyes:

and few justifications would be nice.. :)

thank you, have a nice day..

[PoofBird]

a few justifications from your side would be nice.


God or satan what?

Which one killed JFK?
Which one would most likely date J-Lo?

Which one is real?




oh, sorry, yeah i know you probably mean something like, who do you worship?

I'd say you tell us first, with some justifications, and arguements.
explain yourself, man!

[William Wallace]

there is no god, there is Spirit.

there is no Satan, there is evil.

there is no death, only life and after

[Sander]

well spoken william :cool:

i'm not really religious so cant really answer it =\

[William Wallace]

Why thank you, friend.

[GriefWight]

yeah, I thought that this kind of question isnt' self-explanatory.. :p
but I seek answers, without any questions.. "just pick a horse!"
and say why.. with couple of words.. :cool:

:nana:
mmm.. dancing banana..

[KualaLumpur1997]

A god that is good cannot exist - if (an ominscient) God existed he would be breaching the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - by invading privacy.

Satan as an animate being does not exist - but evil certainly does - in the form of the Illuminati.

Heaven and hell? No, for the human race is destined for the Twelfth Dimension. Currently we are in the third, so we must open our minds and prepare for the merge to the fourth, which will occur in December 2012 (www.2012.com.au). Those who are ignorant of such an event thus are unprepared, and shall die, and become earth.

[PoofBird]

God invades privacy, so therefore cannot be good?
Why, are our morals perfect and unquestionable? Does a God have to answer two manmade laws?


2nd: the Illuminati again, and now something about dimensions.

You never answered my question. If you believe these theories, do you also believe the idea of blooddrinking child murdering lizards who rule the world?
Do you also believe the house of Windsor to be such lizards?

[KualaLumpur1997]

Evil agencies yes, but anything repitilian, no.

[Drukqs]

To me, there is no god. Only happiness.

There is no Satan. Only consequence.

There is no afterlife. There is death and only death. Religion is for pussies who aren't hearing what they want to hear.

I am atheist, and I always will be.

[.fear.my.wrath.]

Hello.

Well, I myself am a Christian, and Kuala, I know everyone has a right to believe what they want, but I perosnally that is a load of bull sorry. No offense.
Anywho, our world is wearing out so something will be happening soon. We'll all know for sure then.

[SemiCircle]

...and back we come to mr icke.

the dimensions crap is, well, crap. have you any idea what a dimension is? how much topology do you know? did you know that in four spacial dimensions it is impossible to tie a knot. it just comes undone. i read that in a mathematical journal (of sorts). i find it highly unlikely that humanity is going to move up in dimension numbers, what with all the brain dribbling from ears that would subsequently occur.

if you believe in the dimensions, why not the lizards? the one is merely an extention of the other- i know, i've read his website. and the secret societies ruling the world is just run-of-the-mill paranoia. i'd see a psychiatrist about that. were you beaten as a child?

[KualaLumpur1997]

Fine by me - Long gone are the times when I cared about what people thought of my views:nana:
BTW I don't really believe that stuff about God breaching the Human Rights act, it's just something I heard on a comedy show.

PS yes I have studied dimensions in some detail, mathematically as well as spiritually (a term used in 2012.com.au) - I read a great book on the subject by Martin Gardner.

PPS I realise that the dimensions and the lizards are connected, but who says I live by David Icke's exact words? There is nothing wrong with condensing from his beliefs what I intend to believe and what I don't - I call it thinking.

PPPS No, I was not beaten as a child.

[eidderf]

i win i win i win i win i win i win

[SemiCircle]

this is a debating forum. let's debate. convince me your beliefs aren't utter crap, and justify it with argument and evidence.

please?

[eidderf]

whats the point in this none of us no whats going to happen when we die not even the wierd lizard guy no offence

[PoofBird]

freddie, the point is to debate, to encourage intelligent thought.

this is far beyond your reach...

do not screw around in threads where intelligent people have fun.

[eidderf]

i know that is the point but this is how i feel there is no point in arguing which religion is real and right because we wont know until we die or if god appeared in front of everyone it doesnt mean everyone has to stop talking you can explain your believes but there is no point in saying your religion is wrong and mines wright is there.Do you understand what i mean now?

[PoofBird]

Yes, I understand what you mean...

I didn't understand this post by you:

Originally posted by eidderf
i win i win i win i win i win i win

in combination with the Matrix thread, it made me think maybe you should go play outside

[KualaLumpur1997]

OK, but first I must say that to declare "I win I win I win" in a debate is uncivilised and unsportsmanlike (if such a term can be applied to a debate, which depends on whether you consider debating a sport).

Also, if you called him a weird lizard guy, I think he'd be very hurt.
Moreso, I am not intelligent.

If you are familiar with the Mayan calendar, then you will know that it is the most accurate calendar ever devised, since it is based on the natural cycles of celestial bodies and their relative position to the Earth. It has the ability to predict, and what is has up unto this point predicted has never been wrong. This not only explains my signature but leads me onto the dimension stuff - its prediction that we shall enter the 5th dimension after passing through the 4th is one that is considered by many, including myself, to be inevitably true. There is astronomical evidence to suggest this is correct - the fact that the Earth shall pass in 2012 into a different area of space, a different quarter of the galaxy (in the same way that it passes through solar solstices and equinoxes (sp?), but on a larger scale.

Did I mention that I believe there are 12 dimensions? If not, I cannot really explain why. I just like the fact that we might not be stuck in this life forever, and that we may be "reincarnated" across different dimensions.

I hope that satisfies you slightly.

[.fear.my.wrath.]

if we get reincarnated, then how come there are more and more ppl? or are there brand new ones too? :confused:

[Garrett]

Originally posted by KualaLumpur1997
OK, but first I must say that to declare "I win I win I win" in a debate is uncivilised and unsportsmanlike (if such a term can be applied to a debate, which depends on whether you consider debating a sport).

Also, if you called him a weird lizard guy, I think he'd be very hurt.
Moreso, I am not intelligent.

If you are familiar with the Mayan calendar, then you will know that it is the most accurate calendar ever devised, since it is based on the natural cycles of celestial bodies and their relative position to the Earth. It has the ability to predict, and what is has up unto this point predicted has never been wrong. This not only explains my signature but leads me onto the dimension stuff - its prediction that we shall enter the 5th dimension after passing through the 4th is one that is considered by many, including myself, to be inevitably true. There is astronomical evidence to suggest this is correct - the fact that the Earth shall pass in 2012 into a different area of space, a different quarter of the galaxy (in the same way that it passes through solar solstices and equinoxes (sp?), but on a larger scale.

Did I mention that I believe there are 12 dimensions? If not, I cannot really explain why. I just like the fact that we might not be stuck in this life forever, and that we may be "reincarnated" across different dimensions.

I hope that satisfies you slightly.

Where can I find a mayan calendar?

[PoofBird]

You make a lot of assumptions.

How does that calender have the ability to predict?

It has never been wrong? Then what things has it predicted so far?

How on earth are astronomical phenomenon (who are dubious at best) evidence for that dimension theory? There is nothing to link them?

Where did you first hear about those dimensions? Who wrote about them? What are their theories?

You should learn to think for yourself. It may be true, I don't know, but when you read something you think may hold the truth you should check out the backgrounds, check if it'f really plausible.

upto know, it sounds like made up nonsense

[eidderf]

i believe that when you die u dont just not exist cus try to imagine not existing it just makes you feel odd like its impossible that is what i think

[SemiCircle]

nope. still unsatisfactory. the mayans weren't all that great. they were remarkable because they did so well with little resources, but their astonomical equipment was vastly inferior to modern radio telescopes, and so their 'predictions', although excellent, were not that accurate. that's not to belittle their calendar, however; it's probably at least as good as the gregorian. however, the current calendar we use isn't really the gregorian, but a modern equivalent that takes into account the wibbles the naturally occur in the solar system.

and this stuff about moving into a new area of the universe is utter bollocks. a new area relative to what? the galaxy? the solar system? they're all moving at ridiculous speeds in all sorts of directions, and spinning and whatnot, so i'd be bloody suprised i we've ever actually returned to a single area of the universe that we've been through. this is even ignoring chaos theory, which would imply that even if we only take into account the rotation of the solar system we will never, ever, ever come back into a position relative to the other astronomical bodies that we have already been through.

and position in the universe is absolutely irrelevant to dimension numbers (unless you're in a black hole or some other quantum anomaly). the rules of the universe are much the same here as over there. therefore momentum is conserved.

try again, little man.

[dingchavez22]

SATAN if I had to choose, I just like him for his appearance and more man-alike character.

[Garrett]

Originally posted by dingchavez22
SATAN if I had to choose, I just like him for his appearance and more man-alike character.

So you've seen satan, eh?

[dingchavez22]

Originally posted by Garrett
So you've seen satan, eh?

But have anyone seen Jezus then? :S Nobody knows if the man (?) looks like...

[eidderf]

would you like satan if you went to hell and he tortured you for the rest of your life
which would be forever
he doesnt sound so nice now does he

edit and isnt it true if you ever saw god you would die
so wouldnt that happen with the devil as well
just a surggestion

[squealpiggy]

Interesting question, do you mean it in a "Who would win in a fight between" way? Because as God is Satan's boss then God would obviously win. Ever read the bible? Don't bother, it doesn't make sense and they all die in the end.

But really in human psyche God and the Devil are two sides of the same coin, they are the deus ex machina, the explanation for the inexplicable. You can't have one without the other, like the Olson twins, like love and marriage, horse and carriage, like Dharma and Greg...

Personally I am a pratical atheist. The whole god business just doesn't seem feasible to me. I'm down with Robert Anton Wilson though, his theories on spiritual development (stolen wholesale from Timothy Leary) make a lot of sense and provide me with hope for humanity.So maybe that is my religion...

And Jesus looks like this
http://www.rkdm.com/jesusbobble/jesus.jpg

Man I really want one of those!

Edited to add the link for the site, it's awesome!
http://www.rkdm.com/

[felixdahousecat]

I have looked to both god and satan for answers to those once so important spiritual questions.

God either doesn't listen or doesn't care and Satan will just fuck (excuse my language) with your head.

Squealpiggy is right saying that they are 2 sides of the same coin. without one, the other wil not exist.

Forget them both, choose your own sense of right and wrong.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law - A.J Crowley

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by felixdahousecat
I have looked to both god and satan for answers to those once so important spiritual questions.

God either doesn't listen or doesn't care and Satan will just fuck (excuse my language) with your head.

Squealpiggy is right saying that they are 2 sides of the same coin. without one, the other wil not exist.

Forget them both, choose your own sense of right and wrong.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law - A.J Crowley

We do have some manichaeists here...

manichaeism as Zoroastrosism says Good and Evil are contending principles of equal power...

Christianity says that Satan (the devil) is a rebellious angel(lucifer), so logically in the end he would lose

in Judaism Shaitan is just an Advocate (hence Devils advocate) who stands against the believers before God...
His FUNCTION is to attack them and thus he has a purpose

In Islam the Devil is the Angel who wouldn't bow down to Man when God (Allah) ordered him to...
He will be forgiven at the end of times the Quran says...
His name is Iblies and Shai'tan is much more like a title...

That's why America is called Shai'tan...
Not because they are Satan but Shai'tan...
Shai'tan is a creature that offers much that has no value...
Reza Shah, the last Shah of Iran was Shai'tan too...

Cultural and language problems there, our Satan is a lot different from their Shai'tan...


For me I don't believe in good or evil as absolutes...
I believe in constructive and destructive...
Difficult to think longterm about those concepts, but we do the best we can... :)

[jessifur]

"First time poster surfaces after lurking only to be dazed by religious dialogue; next on Sick Sad World."

God and Satan, preferably; otherwise there is no balance. Balance between which opposing forces: that's for another thread, I deem, or you can endeavor to expound yourselves if you wish to indulge a careless tangent.

... but yes, both please. God would have nothing over which to triumph were there no Satan, and Satan would have nothing to corrupt were there no purity and wholesomeness -- purity and wholesomeness of course being like unto godliness.

Oh, and cleanliness. Hum. And God is empty, just like me. No wait, that's just a song.

VEni vidi vici,
J.

[squealpiggy]

Cleanliness is next to godliness

Only in an Irish dictionary.

Any Irish people please replace the word "Irish" with "County Kerry". People from County Kerry, you're on your own!

[SemiCircle]

Originally posted by jessifur
Vini vidi vici[/i],
J.

do you mean "VENI vidi vici"?:p

i think i've lost the thread of this debate, so i'll just dip in and make an ass of myself.

satan is a really bad idea if you want god to be omnipotent and benevolant. he could just destroy him, and hence remove evil from the world, and being benevolant he'd do this. therefore satan is silly (as a christian concept). free will is much harder to argue away.

doesn't seem to be any flaw in the other satans, though.

[jessifur]

Do you mean ...
An edit:

VEni

Damn right I did. Accursed are my flying fingers, so easily disoriented by so many "i"s. It wasn't intentional, I swear.

But thank you.

Oh, and you mean benevolent, I think. ;*)

Back to your regularly scheduled diatribe.


SemiCircle offered:

satan is a really bad idea if you want god to be omnipotent and benevolant. he could just destroy him, and hence remove evil from the world, and being benevolant he'd do this. therefore satan is silly That is if you can claim to know the mind of God; but then you did say "if you want God to be ...", of course. But what is the purpose of God, then, if one (or One, depending on whether or not (O)ne is a deity) were to, in a sense, delete all evil from existence? Evil is dependent on good as good is to evil, I believe; one defining the other by comparison and association. Otherwise neither would really be an issue, right?

Like pain and pleasure: with out the sense of displeasure, "feeling good" is lost on us and ultimately taken for granted. There is no means for comparison and therefore good is not good, and bad is not bad. They're both ... nothing. Just a form of stimulation.

And yes, "Lucifer" is, according to myth, supposedly a fallen, irritated, defiant "angel" who asked too many questions. Or something. That certainly is something worth looking into, I think. All I've ever read on the subject was Anne Rice's fiction, Memnoch the Devil, and that, of course, was meant more for her vampiric story-telling than the myth surrounding the origin of Satan.

And as for posable Jesus action figures: $7.00 at Spencers for those of you who live in the States and Canada. And to think I almost bought one the other day. Silly boyfriend only laughed. Bah.

- ^Jessifur^.

[Vivi]

I believe that anyone who doesn't belive in God or heaven and Lucipher and Hades, will one day end up with the 2nd said. Then again, it's stuff in the press like the following that backs up that some ppl are ludicrous and trying to back satan up.

http://www.theonion.com/onion3317/associatechrist.html

serisouly, Christ hiring an assistant? Come on ppl.

[jessifur]

I really hope that's just some sense of sarcasm that's lost on me, because I'm relatively sure periodicals -- even online -- like those of The Onion's ilk shouldn't have their credibility rated with those like, say, USA Today.

Or even your local bumblef*ck newspaper.

[SemiCircle]

Originally posted by jessifur
Damn right I did. Accursed are my flying fingers, so easily disoriented by so many "i"s. It wasn't intentional, I swear.

But thank you.

Oh, and you mean benevolent, I think. ;*)

...

probably. look at me, i spell latin better than i spell english!

and i didn't deny the existance of evil, merely a personification. he's superfluous if you have free will. unless he's no longer a temptor, but instead a tormentor in the afterlife.

you can get "buddy christ" from dogma in forbidden planet. only branches i've seen are in london and... umm, i know i've seen another branch somewhere, but i'm buggered if i know where.

[squealpiggy]

We have a forbidden planet in Manchester!

[extrememangopig]

Which one killed JFK? of course god
Which one would most likely date J-Lo? anyone in the world

i really dont get the question god or satan fro what, who is better?, who do you like?, or what?

i dont have a clue but i wouldnt be either

[Luche]

Here's an age old debate who wud win santa or jesus :weebl:

[squealpiggy]

What's the competition? Sumo, ultimate fighting or delivering presents to children around the world in one night, Santa, Semi contact Karate, steeplechase or being the Christian saviour of mankind, then Jesus...

[donkey_pie]

You mean which do I follow or which I believe in??? Huh?

Well.. I believe in neither as I think that they are both inventions by humans to put the blame on somebody else (blame lord of the flies and studying it far to deeply for GCSE)

[Ferret Pie]

Assuming there were a god, the devil was just made up to keep people from being bad, as was hell. Though satan is supposedly the angel who led a result against god but was crushed. UP THE SOCIAL REPUBLIC OF HEAVEN!

[squealpiggy]

lucifer was the devil but rebelled leading to the war in heaven which resultedin lucifer being cast into the lake of fire along with his disciples. Therein he became "Satan" or "opposite" or "adversary".

the war started because Luifer disobeyed God. He refused to bow down to God's creation, humans, saying he would bow down only to God. In a Judeo christian (and therefore Islamic) tradition the devil is in fact part of God's plan, he serves a purpose. Want to see how? Read the Book of Job.

[Dude]

very interesting, i think i will read the bible now. "reading......................falling asleep........

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by Dude
very interesting, i think i will read the bible now. "reading......................falling asleep........

Pity that story is not to be found in the Bible then :D

[Dude]

Then where did you find it out then?

[Destrukto]

It's a Christian myth, partly based on a clobbering together parts of Isaiah, Job and the Revelations of St. John of Patmos...

Lightly seasoned with stories from medieval Jewish folklore...

[squealpiggy]

And embellished lovingly by me!

Seriously the bible is something that everyone should spend some time reading. It's social history!

[Destrukto]

Indeed, although I'd advise skipping the generationlists :D

If you just want the stories skip Numeri and Leviticus too and large chunks of Deuronomy...

Then Get your teeth in the ballbiting, neckslashing wars in Joshua...

If nothing else, those should give you a different perspective on the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians :(

[squealpiggy]

I would read exodus, leviticus and deuteronomy. They're important because those are the books that people use as justification for their own anti-humanist attitudes, you know, sunjugation of women, hatred of homosexuals, racism, slavery etc. I think that Leviticus and Deuteronomy are the two most important Old Testament books to read, and in the New Testament the book of Titus and all the St Paul's letters books along with Revelations...

I think the gospels are important too, because there is a positive message in the gospels, but also it is interesting because they are all telling the same story but the differences between the events are sometimes astonishing.

There is a lot to be learned from the bible. Mainly how it's a bad idea to live your life by it's word.

[Magpie]

There's a theory that allthough not official christian doctrine i have heard alot of times.

God created Humanity knowing full well that it would cause the fall, as he needed lucifer to assume the role.

it was all ochestrated.

God caused Evil and that's why he dosn't end it once and for all.


Edit: it's true, us slim guys really are dim as shit.

[Destrukto]

It IS official Christian doctrine though :)

I am the Lord; there is none else. I form light and create darkness, I make good and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:6-7)

Furthermore the rest of that story is filled in by writers like Milton, and a bit by contamination by Islam tradition, in which the Shaita Iblis will be forgiven at the End of Creation...

[squealpiggy]

Milton eh? I'm still on page 3 of Paradise Lost... god it's a chore!

Not studying or anything, I just have these thngs because I am goffick.

[SemiCircle]

y'know, milton got married, and he wrote paradise lost. he then got divorced, and wrote paradise regained. what does this show?

[Destrukto]

That he had a knack for making titles that confuse students of Literature into thinking the books are a reflection of his personal life?

[squealpiggy]

Too-shaaaaay

[leper]

Well, Satan didn't give me lepracy so i'll go with Satan.:twisted:

[squealpiggy]

Is lepracy like some kind of contagious spelling disorder? Or did you mean "leprosy" :D

If so you got that off your mum! ;)

[LesserOf2Weebls]

ok ok ok I just spent ages reading this whole thread... so I'd like to insert a little bit here

GOD! All the way!

Why, you ask? Why not? You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain- I mean, you probably don't want my whole life story, but in a nutshell I wouldn't have it any other way! :)

Can I just ask, what happened to absolutes? I mean the whole idea that "what's right for me is right for me and what's right for you is right for you" is a little poopy...

We were made with a free will, so it's your choice if you want to live life to the full or try and depend on things that aren't dependable. ie. ourselves- admit it, we're only human.

*shrug* I'm just damn grateful to know that there's a solid rock to stand on when the world crumbles.

Hope you all see what I'm saying :D

Beeee

PS. I'm getting baptised Sunday! Woot! Anyone who'll be in Sydney is free to come!

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by LesserOf2Weebls
Can I just ask, what happened to absolutes? I mean the whole idea that "what's right for me is right for me and what's right for you is right for you" is a little poopy...

We were made with a free will, so it's your choice if you want to live life to the full or try and depend on things that aren't dependable. ie. ourselves- admit it, we're only human.

*shrug* I'm just damn grateful to know that there's a solid rock to stand on when the world crumbles.

Hope you all see what I'm saying :D

Beeee

PS. I'm getting baptised Sunday! Woot! Anyone who'll be in Sydney is free to come!

I don't deal in absolutes, because as you say we are only human...:)
In your vision, living life to the full is having a firm belief and obviously it gives you much...kudos to you, I am happy that you found what is the way for you...

I myself like the greys, because to me keeping an open mind is what keeps me on my toes... I have no idea if that will ever change, but hey, maybe it will...

The only thing I hope is that within you belief you still keep perspective on other peoples convictions... I have discussed with meny a firm believer, and some of them haveeven cut themself off of reading books that contradict their beliefs, for fear of losing their faith...

For me that just seems a bit suspicious, but if you believe wholeheartedly, while still knowing other standpoints, that's admirable...

[Mr_Moo]

Theres no such thing as "evil" nor "good" in my book (which, coincidentally doesnt exist..but still, I get royalites from somewhere...But i digress)

As for religion...Im not touching that with a 20 foot pole *whacks it* Believe what you will, just dont shove it down other peoples throats

[Seraph]

Originally posted by Mr_Moo
Theres no such thing as "evil" nor "good" in my book (which, coincidentally doesnt exist..but still, I get royalites from somewhere...But i digress)

As for religion...Im not touching that with a 20 foot pole *whacks it* Believe what you will, just dont shove it down other peoples throats

I think with a simple theory.

I believe in love..
I believe in hating someone..

Therefore if there is love, there is hate.
Good and Evil...

Since there is love and hate, if there is a God, there is a Devil.

If there is a Heaven, there is a Hell.

I believe that all things have an opposite.. which makes me believe in twice the amount i think about.

I guess stuff about God, Satan, Love and Hate are all about opinion... and how far your mind will let you believe. :)

What you choose to believe, or not believe is all up to you.
I just think we arent smart enough to figure out what is right or wrong.. otherwise, this would be a perfect world.

If you say you dont think there is Evil.. What is wrong with people who murder? or steal for fun - even tho they know its wrong?

If you say there is no good, what about the people who devote their lives to helping others? Raising money for the ones who dont have any - even if they dont have to?

Can you remember when someone did something behind your back? Or did something that hurt your feelings? Even if it wasnt as evil as murder... it was still 'evil' to do.

Can you remember when someone helped you? Or made you feel good - something as simple as a comment on your clothes, or work? You cant deny that wasnt a random act of kindness, something 'good.'

Now, im not saying there is a God or Devil, Heaven or Hell, but i know there is some form of good and evil in this world...
What you choose to think and believe, is up to you. :)

[Dude]

I dont think they are gods, i think saitan and god are just symbols for good and for evil.

[LesserOf2Weebls]

Hey Dude:D

I'm thinking the other way round- Good is an easy representation of God, while evil is a representation of Satan...

Just thought I'd throw that one in ;)

Cyaz all

[Dude]

You know what i meant....:D

[LesserOf2Weebls]

Of course ;)

You know I can throw in my car analogy for those who don't believe the universe was created... hopefully it won't bore the heck out of you, but if it does then my apologies!!!

ok... so there's all these parts of a car in a garage, none of them are put together- there's scrap metal, nuts bolts, everything you need for a complete car. What are the chances of this car suddenly going "kaboom" and finding itself in perfect condition, full of petrol, oil, water, stereo system working etc?

pretty slim?

what are the chances of someone actually putting it together?

Go figure.

I know, this debate was called "God or Satan" but there's also been the question of whether they exist in the first place from some, so that's my 2 cents in regards to that :p

Have a mega week all!

[squealpiggy]

what are the chances of someone actually putting it together?


In my garage? Bugger all!

OK so the chance of it putting itself together is very slim. It would be 0.0000000000000001% or something. However, if we are discussing the car parts in the context of infinity (infinite car parts, infinite time) then as the chance is 0.0000000000000001% then it means that the chance is >0. In the context of infinity >0 is a certainty so there is zero chance that the car would not form itself permanently at least once in infinite garages over an infinite period of time.

Hence "God" is infinity.

[PoofBird]

and there are no laws of physics that explain the making of a car...

We do have physics and evolution explaining the creation of the universe. It does not explain all, granted, and this explaining does not necessarily make god obsolete. There is still the question whether there was a Big Bang or not, and what exactly that would mean, and what caused that...
I don't think the analogy stands, though.

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by LesserOf2Weebls
ok... so there's all these parts of a car in a garage, none of them are put together- there's scrap metal, nuts bolts, everything you need for a complete car. What are the chances of this car suddenly going "kaboom" and finding itself in perfect condition, full of petrol, oil, water, stereo system working etc?

pretty slim?

what are the chances of someone actually putting it together?

Go figure.

Ye olde "Clockmaker" analogy...

This analogy has also been made for the human eye...
ie. how could the human eye have evolved?
Most people who believe in the "clockmaker" analogy say "never in evolution there has been a being with half an eye, so it has to be constructed."

Recent studies with "emergent" computerprograms have shown that it is possible to go from lightreagistering cells to a human eye in about 10.000 generations (and that is VERY fast in evolutionary terms, it probably has taken many more) to a human (or octopus) eye, without there ever been half an eye...
The problem with the "Clockmaker" argument is that humans tend to think that there has to be a moment when an eye is an eye (ie, the eye has a "beginning").
Unfortunately this is not how nature works...

Can you tell me when the day "begins", I mean the *exact* moment?
Can you tell when an embryo is *alive*, again the *exact* moment?

Probably not, because these things are not digital, but analog things... they are not created, but emergent, in other words they are product of processes, and not "states" of being...

Human beings (or other beings) do not have to be assembled, they have become what they are though a dynamic process which is a miracle in itself, if you want to stay in the "God" terminology...

btw, to go back to the "car" metaphor...
At what moment does your car "become" a car?

[squealpiggy]

Can you tell me when the day "begins", I mean the *exact* moment

6.40 GMT when my alarm clock goes off. The day does not start before then, anyone that thinks so is mistaken.

[Wahoo]

The big bang was believed to be caused by atoms coliding with eachother v fast and dividing, cause many millions of atoms to be created very quickly, thus there was a huge bang (or something like that), anyway, that is how they thought the big bang came to be.

The car analogy doesn't work completely, because the atoms were actually moving, if the cart parts could move and multiply so fast that millions of cars were created in seconds, there would probably be a huge explosion of energy released from all this.

I do believe God exhists however, cause something must have a creator, but God only exhists because we have no proof that he does exhist. Therefore we have faith (hehe, hitchhikers :) )

[Maros]

I think this was asked in a Pratchet book...Might have been Science of the Discworld 2: The Globe, I can't remember. It basicly said that there is no set line where one thing becomes another. Its a shade of gray.

[squealpiggy]

I haven't read science 2 but I want to... hmm I may order it from Amazon.

But that sort of thing is recurrent in Pratchett. I like Thief of Time.

[Scribbly]

I'm an agnostic.. there ain't no god nor satan.. bad stuff just happens.. action/reaction..

[eidderf]

no one will ever know

[GorillaBearBear]

Scribbly - That's not an agnostic belief, that is Atheist. Agnostic means you don't know one way or the other. Therefore if you think there is no god or satan you are atheist.

I am Agnostic I suppose....I kind of have a weird Mish Mash of beliefs.

[squealpiggy]

I do not believe in your Mish Mash god!

[almighty_bob]

God is good, the bible tells us that Satan also exists
Heaven is Gods Kingdom, Hell is a world without God
if they do not exist, why is there so much evidence to show it does?
Jesus loves u ppl [all of u, athests et al]
God Bless

[apologies for speeling]

[smiley clown]

Im intrested in what kind of evidence you mean. Explain.

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by smiley clown
Im intrested in what kind of evidence you mean. Explain.

I'd be interesting in this evidence too...
I hope it is not just circumstancial evidence like the existence of the bible or the old Clockmakers argument that we already have heard...:)

[almighty_bob]

Originally posted by smiley clown
Im intrested in what kind of evidence you mean. Explain.

1. Tactius
2. Suetonius
3. Josephus
4. FF Bruce

All famous historians
only 1 of which is christian

[almighty_bob]

There is alot more, if u want; i will attempt to find a couple of examples
They prove the existance of Jesus, and what he did

[Smeagle]

Listing names isn't really a great way to debate.

Care to elaborate?

Who were these people? What did they do/write about? etc.

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
1. Tactius
2. Suetonius
3. Josephus
4. FF Bruce

All famous historians
only 1 of which is christian Tacitus and Suetonius only talk about Christians existing and they say thet they have "heard" about a person called Chrestos...
This is secondhand evidence...

Flavius Josephus talks precious little about Jesus and a lot more about John the Baptist...

FF Bruce is a contemporary historian and as therefore no direct link and offers maybe only 400-hand evidence...

The contemporary (not even that) never call him Son of God, nor say anything about Satan, nor say anything about Heaven or Hell...

Try again please :)

[almighty_bob]

These people are historians from various points in time
some are Roman, though the latter are modern, as in the past 50 years or so
one is Jewish, the other Christian
there is more, as ive sed, i will attempt to find out more details
those i have listed went into details of his existance, they questioned the miricules, and found evidence to suggest its occurance
there is also the issue of how much stories have changed since originally written. this is a good starting point to see the validity of what is written. There are about 25,000 different copies of the bible, written in different places, at different times, yet they all stick to the same story
It was also originally written between 30-310 years of Jesus's deatgh, depending on which parts of the new testament u refer to

[almighty_bob]

As ive sed, this is the beginning of my evidence, there is more, Destrukto is partially riyte, but theres more to it than he says
im not a historian or researcher myself, but i suggest if u want evidence, go to church, and ask a minister for non religious evidence; they will happily give it
as for me, my sources r not discredited completely, but i will search for more
God Bless
A

[Destrukto]

You say these talk about the miracles, but Tacitus, Suetonius and Josephus never mention these at all...

At most they speak about people speaking about some of them (primarily the coming back from death) supposedly happening...

This is not very strong evidence, historianwise...

[almighty_bob]

It is open to interpretation, but u have not ruled out the fact they do mention other miricales
The rising from death is a major question, hence it is important to discuss
these historians say that it is very possible that it occured. it is certain the body was missing from the tomb, so maybe u wud care to offer an explaination...
God Bless

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
It is open to interpretation, but u have not ruled out the fact they do mention other miricales
The rising from death is a major question, hence it is important to discuss
these historians say that it is very possible that it occured. it is certain the body was missing from the tomb, so maybe u wud care to offer an explaination...
God Bless

They say nothing of the sort...
Tacitus just refers to Christians, who follow someone called Chrestos...
Suetonius likewise...

I'll have to check up on Josephus, but he also talkes about people talking about it, which in historians terms is called "hearsay"

[almighty_bob]

as ive sed, it is open to interpretation how u interpret it, if u call it hearsay, fine, others disagree. they dont see that they were discussing hear-say
u claiming to b a historian then?

[*shorty*]

GOD.... is flippin AMAZING!!!!!! hehe:D :angel: :love:

[almighty_bob]

:D
God Bless ya

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
as ive sed, it is open to interpretation how u interpret it, if u call it hearsay, fine, others disagree. they dont see that they were discussing hear-say
u claiming to b a historian then?

Yes, I have studied Ancient History at University, so I'll quote the relevant passages from Tacitus, Suetonius and Flavius Josephus...

Tacitus says:

Annals 15.44But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

Suetonius says:

As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.

Josephus says:

3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day. Jewish Antiquities”, by Flavius Josephus. Book 18, Chapter 3

and:

Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.


So we see Tacitus just mentions him in order to explain actions by Emperor Nero, and he calls it a superstition and aactually sides with the poular view that Christians are lowlife scum (his oinion, not mine(!))

Suetonius just mentions him once and calls him Chrestos, which means Virtuous One in Greek, and not Messiah, because that would have been Christos... Chrestos just refers to a good MAN...

Josephus is the only one who mentions coming back from the dead, but he calls the Christians a "tribe" which in this context usually is a word that is used as a pejorative, much in th way we use the word "mob".

In te last quote from Josephus we see he uses the words "so-called Chrst" meaing he just quotes people who call him Christ...
This does not mean he believes it himself, but onlythat other believe it, whichdoes not make it true...

These are the only sources outside the bible we have, and they do not give any proof that Jesus was Son of God(the never mention it) but only that it is highly likely a man called Jesus existed...

Over to you :)

[almighty_bob]

the point i was making was that he existed, and that they do not rule out the fact that he was the son of God. Although as you have just shown, they dont, in these particular references. There are others outside the bible, however, I dont know them at this exact moment in time, i will however make every effort in the meantime to find them.
It should also be pointed out however, that there exists the distinct posibilty that you are using sources to your own advances, instead of presenting the facts.
My suggestion of interpretation is also highlighted further by the first extract from Josephus
A.

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
the point i was making was that he existed, and that they do not rule out the fact that he was the son of God. Although as you have just shown, they dont, in these particular references. There are others outside the bible, however, I dont know them at this exact moment in time, i will however make every effort in the meantime to find them.
It should also be pointed out however, that there exists the distinct posibilty that you are using sources to your own advances, instead of presenting the facts.
My suggestion of interpretation is also highlighted further by the first extract from Josephus
A.

I presented the quotes just as they are...
Your suggestion that I use them to my own advances is slightly insulting I feel and a bit childish...
I just quoted the three sources that you presented as if that would clinch it, but it seems you didn't even know what they said...

I suggest that when you quote the next sources you present yourself(although apart form the Nag Hammadi scrolls there are none), so you will not have to call me a liar again...

[almighty_bob]

I apologise if u felt my comments were insulting and/or childish (although that particular arguement is one used commonly by lawyers such as myself)
I shall speak to my church leader, who originally pointed me in the direction of those particular sources,
he has promised others, and thus I shall ask

[oppernaR]

Do I worship satan, no. Am I satanist, maybe.

Satan came from the arabic word Shaitan, meaning opponent. It was originally directed to scientists opposed to the church who condemned them as heretics: The myth of the Illumnati.
Those scientists didn't worship any devil, they just wanted to promote rational thought over blind belief. This happened somewhere around the 16th century. Galilei is told to be the most famous Illumnati (means enlightened).

Believing in God, however, means you believe in the Devil (let's not call him Satan, that name is relatively new and not his original one), just like believing in the Devil means you believe in God.

In fact, considering this line of thought, all christians would be more into worshipping or believing in the devil than me, satanist by definition ;)

** Sorry, just thought i'd confuse you a bit more **

[almighty_bob]

Yes, christians believe in the devil; doesnt mean we worship him tho
interesting point that u have raised tho...

[oppernaR]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
Yes, christians believe in the devil; doesnt mean we worship him tho
interesting point that u have raised tho...

I didn't mean to say that, just was trying to make the point that since I don't believe in the devil, and christians do (the pope officially announced that the devil exists only a couple of years ago), i would be even less a satanist than christians, right?

[almighty_bob]

basically

[oppernaR]

Ok, thank you, please proceed your fine debate...

[almighty_bob]

i wud, but i aint got to the evidence yet; to busy discussing whether ur a satanist or not

[oppernaR]

Let me help you, in the pure grammatical way i would be a satanist, in the generally accepted way i would be an atheist.

[almighty_bob]

God still loves u; just he wants u to accept him into ur heart

[oppernaR]

Let me get off this topic for just a second:

I DON'T WANT TO!!!

I'm totally willing to admit i could be wrong and there is a god, and if i'm wrong i will find out after i die. Why do christians always want to convince people they're right!?!?
Can you admit honestly that you could be wrong, and that there could be no god???
If yes, good for you, then also accept my decision.
If no, that's called intollerance...

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
I apologise if u felt my comments were insulting and/or childish (although that particular arguement is one used commonly by lawyers such as myself)
I shall speak to my church leader, who originally pointed me in the direction of those particular sources,
he has promised others, and thus I shall ask

You can also ask your churchleader then how it can be that the Josephus quotes were first unearthed by the churchfather Eusebius (324 AD (!)) and not by the churchfather Origen (154 AD) and Clement of Alexandria (150 AD). The latter was a very outspoken apologist who used everything at hand to get acceptance for Christians, the first a great scholar who commentated Josephus, but never cites the Christ passages...

Also ask him why no other Roman historian mentions Nero persecuting Christians and why Tacitus gave Pilate the title Procurator. The correct title should have been prefect, as the title procurator was ONLY used in the second half of the first century...
Tacitus was very thorough and never made weird mistakes like that...
Again it is strange that Clement of Alexandria never mentions this story, nor does Tertullianus who quoted lots of Tacitus, but never mentions this story...

As to Suetonius, ask him why he got the name misspelled...
The part by Suetonius furthermore takes place during the reign of Claudius, to be exact 54 AD. Even if this refers to Jesus how can he instigate the Jews at that time...

Lots of questions and I hope you will get the answers :)

[almighty_bob]

im not trying to convert ne1
i cannot admit i mite b wrong; but i know im not, God is with us; u may call me crazy, but God has spoken to me
I do accept tht other people do not believe, and respect their opinions, i just know christianity to be the truth
Im sorry, it isnt intollerence, i will accept ne1
as ive sed, im not here to convert
im just expressing my opinions

[almighty_bob]

I'll ask; coz i have not really a clue what ur on bout with sum of stuff
as ive just sed tho; i no christianity to be the truth; im just here for the debate

[eidderf]

the world is to perfect to not have a god
war is something man does not god
so when people say why does god let war happen
i think he wants humans to see the error of their ways
and what about dieseise well everyone dies some day

[Destrukto]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
I'll ask; coz i have not really a clue what ur on bout with sum of stuff
as ive just sed tho; i no christianity to be the truth; im just here for the debate

I have no problems with that, I just wanted to point out that theones you quoted are on shaky grounds :)

But if believing works for you, good for you...
I have no intention to smash your faith...

But is was not proof, as you said :D

[almighty_bob]

good issues; not so sure u r so good with ur argements
war is something man does, god does try and stop it, by giving us peacemakers
but man argues 'god is with us'
ie. N. Ireland/ Israel/ etc.

Disease is possibly Gods way of bringing belief to areas of the world
see groups like Tearfund

God Bless
A

[almighty_bob]

Originally posted by Destrukto
I have no problems with that, I just wanted to point out that theones you quoted are on shaky grounds :)

But if believing works for you, good for you...
I have no intention to smash your faith...

But is was not proof, as you said :D

k, cheers then m8, it wud take a lot to smash my faith

will bring those questions that u gave me up at the next Alpha meeting, so can give u the answers

[Destrukto]

I would like that...
This debate is going better and better...

I actually learned stuff, because I had to dig into my books oncemore to get that info I just gave :)

[almighty_bob]

Who sed it was a simple question???
yer, this debate is great, allows me to go deeper into the roots of my faith

[LesserOf2Weebls]

Yikes i go away for a few days and there's a bazillion re-pies... must be on to something good if ya ask me ;)

[Wahoo]

Faith does not exist if you can proove something, so if you can prove that god exhists, you have no faith, therefore He can't be physically there, allowing Him to go beyond limits. This is why we can't see Him.

[almighty_bob]

complex argument Wahoo; but it is possible to have faith in findings, therefore it is more of which path one wishes to follow, opposed to a debate to which there is an acctual conclusion.
I say this as I do not wish to discredit you completely, as others may find it a good source of debate.
However, I have faith in God, although I believe there is evidence which proves his existance.
Although non-belivers may call me crazy; I believe God has spoken to me; therefore I have proof, but I still have faith in God and Gods work....

[Wahoo]

If you have faith in a finding, you believe that something is true, although, it may not be completely true. For example, if you found a spearhead, you know that it is metal obviously, but you believe it is a spearhead from the tool age for example, yet it might not be, but you believe this to be true. if you have faith in a finding, you either believe something has or is going to happen, but has not happened yet.

Most importantly, you cannot believe in something if you have prooved it, because you know it is true. If God has spoken to you and you have actually proved it to be true, you cannot believe it because you already know.

[Shiny_macShine]

Just a thought but i think that god and the devil were just a believable explanation for what is the cause of good and evil in the world, when most people in those days couldn't even read or write. I just think most is down to chance and random chaos like random events that effect other things to create more random events.

Plus i think that religious leaders are some of the most arrogant people on earth. How can they tell people how the universe works and whos controlling it when are knowledge of such things from the greatest scientififc minds we have is miniscule at best. The size of the universe is probably nearly or actually infinite to us humans anyway. In the great scheme of things throught all the universe, comparatively we are next to nothing.

[Wahoo]

your lucky, back in ancient greece, whatever the church said, was the way it was. if anyone challenged the churches views on things, they were put to death.

[smiley clown]

Actually, most religious leaders (Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Hindu) will only try and convert when asked to and don't believe in imposing their views on others. Also when they are trying to convert you they aren't being selfish they're are trying to save your soul ( in their eyes) which sounds like quite a selfless thing to do.

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by Wahoo
your lucky, back in ancient greece, whatever the church said, was the way it was. if anyone challenged the churches views on things, they were put to death.

When was this?

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
When was this?

you know, back in the days!

when socrates and plato went to sermon, to hear aristotle preach!

[squealpiggy]

Ah yes, the famous Hector who once slew the entire island of Crete because someone dissed Apollo. Hector was rather ike a ninja for flipping out and killing people, only in them days people were never killed, they were slain.

[Destrukto]

I hate to break your train of thought, but you are gettin off topic ;)

I'd love it if a "story contamination thread" would be started somewhere though :D

[squealpiggy]

Mods should be able to splice topics off if you're using php. You could create a thread in the cheese bin or something!

But occasionally yes I have been known to ramble off topic. Sorry, it is my perogative as an absent minded genius...

[eidderf]

i beleive in god but
just to have it comfirmed
i would like some evidence
i know it sounds stupid

[almighty_bob]

it doesnt sound stupid...
scroll back a few pages to see a very productive debate on that very issue, and keep your eyes peeled on future references, I hopefully will have some more evidence to post tomorrow

[I'm Jim Too]

In a straight fight I think God would win everytime.
He's got the whole sucker punch combo coming on
- you make the mistake of thinking that he's the essence of all that is Good when

*pow*

turns out that he's both the Light and the Dark.
Satan's just a puppet and God's pulling his strings...

[almighty_bob]

mmm,
interesting arguement, in which case, why did the devil try and tempt a thord of God, when God is meant to control him???
i'm sorry, but logically your theory flops...

the whole sucker punch thing may be relevant; as God is a jealous God and may seek revenge on the devil due to these so called 'satanists'....

[squealpiggy]

The devil never tried to tempt God, he tried to temp Jesus the Son of Man, not Jesus the Son of God. Jesus was born with human frailties and faults, otherwise how would he possibly fulfil his function and die and rise again? It was the human part of Jesus that the Devil was trying to tempt, not the God part.

[almighty_bob]

glad you picked that up... :)
yes; you are correct [wow; i'm admitting i'm wrong]

but wait...
it depends how you look at it,....

Jesus was born man, but he was the son of God
we talk about God the one in 3; ok thats modern... but still, you have to wonder

[yay; wasnt wrong, matter of opinion]

[I'm Jim Too]

I kinda think you may be missing the whole point of existence if you cant understand why God would lead Lucifer into his fall from grace.
Do you think that evil isnt part of "the design"?
hmm? :twisted:

[almighty_bob]

erm... could just be lack of sleep, but what are you arguing??

[squealpiggy]

Originally posted by almighty_bob
glad you picked that up... :)
yes; you are correct [wow; i'm admitting i'm wrong]

but wait...
it depends how you look at it,....

Jesus was born man, but he was the son of God
we talk about God the one in 3; ok thats modern... but still, you have to wonder

[yay; wasnt wrong, matter of opinion]

The idea of a trinity stems from Egyptian religion in the latter part of that civilisation. They had a rather complex trilogy involving death and rebirth about a thousand years before Christianity was a concept. So the multiple aspect single God is actualy a fairly old idea.

[almighty_bob]

but the application of it to the christain faith is comparitively modern....
or are you claiming that the eygptions created christianity???
considering they enslaved the Israelites, Im not too sure on this one...

[squealpiggy]

put it this way, the Israelites were a primitive people captured by I think the second big civilisation and held in slavery. It is possible that they got their ideas off their masters. Especially when you consider that Moses was an Israelite raised by the egyptians.

Egyptians didn't invent Christianity, they had their own beliefs. But they had a trinity of Gods before the Jews were out of the caves.

[almighty_bob]

mmm, potential theory,
however the Israelites are Jews... not Christians...

[Wahoo]

Originally posted by squealpiggy
The devil never tried to tempt God, he tried to temp Jesus the Son of Man, not Jesus the Son of God. Jesus was born with human frailties and faults, otherwise how would he possibly fulfil his function and die and rise again? It was the human part of Jesus that the Devil was trying to tempt, not the God part.

I know this is late, but i have to say you ae wrong on some of this.

Yes, Jesus was the Son of Man, and He is God, but God did call Jesus son, many times, for example, when Jesus was baptised.

Also, Jesus was not born with human faults and failings, he was born perfect, without any sin.

Also, I think that God did create satan, in the story where he devided the good people from the bad (it's in the old testement somewhere) and he said the good people were there when he needed them, and they would be praised in heaven, but the bad people were not there at all and that they would go to an eternal life of punishment.

And carrying on, yes, back then, you were a Jew or a Gentile.

[squealpiggy]

Well the dividing of the people is in the Revalation of St John, the last book of the New Testament.

Jesus was born with human frailities, though yes he was born without sin. The whole point of Jesus was that he was human in the Christian tradition. I think the best version of Jesus's life and to me the most inspirational (I am still inspired by it now, despite not having any faith) is in the Last Temptation by Nikos Kazantzaki. I urge all Christians and non Christians to buy this book and read it. It shows up his doubts and his fears (which were recorded in the gospels in his prayers in the Garden of Gethsemane just before his "betrayal" by Judas.


In the book Judas Iscariot was Jesus' staunchest ally, he was the one that would leap up to defend him and who would die for him. And Jesus asks him to make the ultimate sacrifice, one that would besmirch his name for eternity. That of the betrayer. Think about it, Jesus needed to die in order to rise again, that is part of God's plan. So he needed someone from his loyal supporters who would betray him so that his death could happen. That person was his most loyal retainer Judas. Without Judas ther would be no Christianity, because Jesus would not have been executed only to conquer death.

As for the comment of the Israelites being Jews and not Christians: The first Christians were the apostles, they were all Jews. Later there were some Romans and then it spread but the Jews were the first. So the Jews invented Christianity.

[Destrukto]

Actually most of Christian doctrine was made by Paul, the apostle that never saw Christ when he was alive...

There is quite some controversy about Paul these days, even going so far that he may have been a Roan spy, sent to infiltrate the (then) sect, and try to take the sting out of it...

For a short outline of this theory look here (http://www.askwhy.co.uk/awmob/awpaul/pau130PAUPaulTarsus.html)

[Wahoo]

christianity is the main general form for the religions of roman catholic, judaeism and the orthodox church. I never said jews were not christians, it's just you were a jew or a gentile, well, to them at least.

[crazy mofo]

Well bth Christianity is the biggest load of bull since..well..bullshit.
imo it was invented for the following reasons:

1) Give people hope when they were dying in the streets
2) An excuse for genocide 'In the name of God' (Crusades etc)

and finally

3) An excuse for gay men to bugger choir boys (sorry that had to come in at some point :p )


Well boosh im done here...

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by crazy mofo

Well boosh im done here...

yes, you are... no more intolerant crap from you then?

good.

[crazy mofo]

Actually thats seriously what i think. Apart from point 3 ^_^

[squealpiggy]

There is quite some controversy about Paul these days, even going so far that he may have been a Roan spy, sent to infiltrate the (then) sect, and try to take the sting out of it...


Haha I bet he finished and said "D'OH!". True most of the dogma was invented by Paul (he wasn't an apostle I don't think, he was Saul the roman who was struck blind wasn't he? I don't remember, it's all fading into one story about a man with a withered hand who ate five loaves and 2 fishes and got cast out into a herd of pigs for forty days and forty nights before betraying someone with a kiss and rising from the dead, doubting that he had done it and tonguing fire... Can you tell I was raised Catholic?

Well bth Christianity is the biggest load of bull since..well..bullshit.
imo it was invented for the following reasons:

1) Give people hope when they were dying in the streets
2) An excuse for genocide 'In the name of God' (Crusades etc)

and finally

3) An excuse for gay men to bugger choir boys (sorry that had to come in at some point )


1) None of my christian family have ever been in danger of dying in the street

2) None of my family have ever commited, or participated in the committing of genocide

3) To the best of my knowledge none of my family have ever buggered a choirboy.

So was your point to be offensive or were you just demonstrating your lack of knowledge?

[Wahoo]

or trying to attract attention toward him gets my tick ;) :eek:

[Amazing Morris]

Religion in itself is a good thing but organised religion is just a global disaster waiting to happen (and its happened a few thousand times in the past). The original teachings of all the major religions all dispense good advice for living your life but there will always be some extreme weirdos who interpret them in their own way e.g. killing everyone.
I suggest that everyone believes in what they want but doesn't make to much of a fuss about it.

[LesserOf2Weebls]

As opposed to disorganised religion...?:D

[MrPeg]

Here by i shall now prove that "God" does not exist...

It is the common "Fact" that God is infallible (ie. he CANNOT be proven wrong).

According to Christianity, Lucifer (satan) was originally an angel.
God cast him down from heaven due to him no longer being unfit to be an angel.

Seen as it is God himself who give angel status, he must have been wrong when he made Lucifer into an angel.

Therefore the universe as we know it should have imploded (or ex) at that very moment as a primary law of the universe would have been broken!;)

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by MrPeg
Here by i shall now prove that "God" does not exist...


not at all,

you have merely argumented that either Christian believe (of which you mentioned a tiny bit) is not 100% correct, or God isn't infallible (that is, if he wanted his angels to be infallible to), or that God may have a bigger plan which includes Lucifer which you cannot know.
And you claim to know that the infallibility of God should be a primary universal law, which is not to be found in any science book.

it only proves one thing: you didn't bother to read this whole thread, in which these and other arguments have been discussed at length.

I suggest you start reading now.

[almighty_bob]

seconded

[eidderf]

well to god to make him an angel must proved he was good in the first place
maybe he just became evil and corrupt after he was made an angel

[Ouroboros]

Originally posted by eidderf
well to god to make him an angel must proved he was good in the first place
maybe he just became evil and corrupt after he was made an angel
But being omniscient he should have known that he would become evil.

Boosh.

[eidderf]

maybe god had faith in him to carry on being good

[squealpiggy]

God didn't promote people to be angels, he created angels in his image to serve him in heaven. And without Satan there can be no second coming, no judgement and noone to test the faith of God's followers so of course there is a reason that God created an entity to serve as the embodyment of all that God is not.

[LesserOf2Weebls]

God gave Lucifer a free will- just like what we have. It's what you choose to do with that free will that counts.

Obviously Lucifer thought he could do better than God, but that doesn't mean God didn't know what was coming. It DOES mean that he's gentlemanly enough to let us make the choice to follow him or go our own way. When Lucifer decided to go his own way, look where he ended up.

Personally, I think Satan screwed up big time, and he knows it too, since he's no competition for his creator. I mean, what chance does the pottery have against the potter...

[squealpiggy]

Lucifer didn't have free will did he? I thought that the Angels didn't have free will, or maybe Lucifer was given free will as the mightiest of angels...

[Destrukto]

The angels did have free will, at least at one crucial instance where God asked them to bow to his newest creation, Man...

Lucifer refused because he couldn't bear to bow to something less than God, so he was evicted from the Heavens and cast down to Hell...

[squealpiggy]

Christian dogma is that the angels did not have free will, hence Lucifer and his allies are cast out immediately. Human beings are not cast out immediately if they refuse to obey God, though by judgement day their ass is grass.

[Dude]

Was hell there before Lucifer? Or was it created for him and his deciples? (sp?)

[squealpiggy]

No information on this in Milton or biblical references. Probably God created the Lake of Fire when he cast Lucifer out, and once created it had always been there.

[James Twisleton]

Originally posted by .fear.my.wrath.
Hello.

Well, I myself am a Christian, and Kuala, I know everyone has a right to believe what they want, but I perosnally that is a load of bull sorry. No offense.
Anywho, our world is wearing out so something will be happening soon. We'll all know for sure then. I'm a Christian, yay for Christianity!

[Wally]

Beelzebub had a tea party with the grand dukes of hell man!
Got it on taaaaape!
While satan was on the toilet and the wicked angels who guard hell where gone to the disco..

There is no God called God only Zeus, Poseidon, All their greek brother and sisters, Thor Odin, Loki, all their Norse friends and family, and Isis and Ra and all their bro's and sissies, and Quetzalquotl and his Aztec friends and family and allot allot more man definatly man unbelievable man!

[squealpiggy]

Don't fprget Jupiter, Mars, Neptune and Mercury et al, who were just the Greek gods under a nom de plume to appeal to thew kids in Rome. It's all about the marketing.

[jigi]

There's no god, there's love, hope, faith, and free will
There's no satan, there's evil, but good must prevail
There's no after life, we're all just flesh and blod, and when we die, there's nothing left, no soul, no mind, no beauty, we lay in earth while dirty creatures eat what's left of us.
i had a god, and he died with my friends, it's the world that's fucked up, and i live to make it better, there's hope, there's faith, there's love, and if i lose my self, all i have to do is take a look at my baby sister's blue eyes...

[LesserOf2Weebls]

Just curious to know- where exactly does it say that the angels are supposed to bow down to humans....?


Hey Jigi- I'd have to say that's a pretty morbid thought, that we are only flesh and blood- nothing actually meaningful about us. I reckon we're a little more than just that dude!

[PoofBird]

Originally posted by LesserOf2Weebls
Hey Jigi- I'd have to say that's a pretty morbid thought, that we are only flesh and blood- nothing actually meaningful about us. I reckon we're a little more than just that dude!

what meaningful is there about us, then? In what way does spirit and soul give us meaning?
(not arguing that there isn't, but interested in hearing your views)

[squealpiggy]

Milton's Paradise Lost.

[jigi]

We were all placed on this earth for a reason, we were not given life because we have no purpose to fulfill, we all have a soul but it dies with us, and I guess that what left is really the meaning of what we did during our stay. We should live each day as if it was our own little quest, he who spends his life in complete leisure without reaching his purpose, is just a waste of oxigen. Everyone's purpose is different and can be the smallest thing, but meaningful. Our purpose, or shall I say, my purpose, as I see it, is to make my world a better place, so my children won't have to deal with blodshed, so they won't be afraid while walking down the street, so they will know no hatred. My purpose is to teach, to open the ignorant's eyes into the beauty of weekness and compassion. Let my words be my weapon, coz I wish no destruction, just peace.

[jigi]

We were all placed on this earth for a reason, we were not given life because we have no purpose to fulfill, we all have a soul but it dies with us, and I guess that what left is really the meaning of what we did during our stay. We should live each day as if it was our own little quest, he who spends his life in complete leisure without reaching his purpose, is just a waste of oxigen. Everyone's purpose is different and can be the smallest thing, but meaningful. Our purpose, or shall I say, my purpose, as I see it, is to make my world a better place, so my children won't have to deal with blodshed, so they won't be afraid while walking down the street, so they will know no hatred. My purpose is to teach, to open the ignorant's eyes into the beauty of weekness and compassion. Let my words be my weapon, coz I wish no destruction, just peace.

[LesserOf2Weebls]

What's meaningful- (as I see it)

We don't have to just be animals relying on instincts. We can have feelings, have the ability to love (not just reproduce), make our choices after thinking long and hard about it, choose our future.

I guess animals can do a limited amount of that, but surely as humans we are more than just organisms that live for a few decades then go down to the earth to nothing. Maaaan there is sooooo much more to life!!!

I'd rather not be afraid of death, in the knowledge that there is so much more to life than just what is seen, so much more after death. It's pretty stinky if death wins all the time (and yes it does win if there's nothing after death but memories). I mean, don't you want to look forward to more than life than this? Listen to Stacy Orrico, or however you spell her name!!!

Back on the topic... "God" is my answer... to whatever the random question was =o)

[Scribbly]

Originally posted by GuerillaBaaBaa
Scribbly - That's not an agnostic belief, that is Atheist. Agnostic means you don't know one way or the other. Therefore if you think there is no god or satan you are atheist.

I am Agnostic I suppose....I kind of have a weird Mish Mash of beliefs.

yes, you're right. Right now I don't really know which one I man. But I guess the whole process of trying to figure out in which 'catagory' you belong is rather silly. I don't believe in any gods, so yes, I guess I'm an atheist...

[Cossack]

I choose both... Why?

Because what is a Satan? Some evil demon-like creature that rules the Hell and makes people suffer... blah blah blah.

But what's so bad about it? It's doing a good thing it is making the sinner(bad people) suffer. That's good. Satan is just doing the dirty job for the God. Are you going to say that police is Evil!? Police is doing the smae thing as Satan, it punishes the bad-doers..

You are asking us to choose between someone who rewards people(God) and someone who enforces justice(Satan).

[squealpiggy]

So... the Police are the same as the Devil because they punish evil-doers? The police don't punish people, though they do apprehend people.

The Devil does do the dirty work, not so much the punishing evil doers (at no point in the bible does it suggest that Satan, the Devil or Lucifer does any kind of punishing. It does say that he does a lot of suffering and that people in the Lake of Fire after Judgement will suffer with the Devil and His angels, but not that it would be Satan messing with the thermostat.

What th Devil does do is to provide tempttion, and to test God's followers, so if anything that is the Devil's purpose.

[Cossack]

Bible is old...

While religion has to be told within the boundaries, set by the current knowledge about the world. That's what Snt. Augustin wrote in his works.

If Devil test God's followers, how come we have Hell? For those who fail? Well, then those who fail are punished for not having enough faith in God.

Call it a test... call it a judgement... System is still balanced. God sends tests, Satan cleans up the disbelievers.

"There is no good without evil, there is no evil without good"

[squealpiggy]

Only God can judge, the devil tempts people from God, the punishment is to burn in the lake of fire in full view of the glory of the Kingdom of God.

And to know the Kingdom of God and be denied it is hell on earth. The burning is just taking the piss further...